Talked to JW's today

[ZeugenJehovas]

Everyone knows it is the “best known” transliteration which is why it is mind boggling to put so much weight on a name of such origin to profess that those that don’t use it must be non believers.

The origin comes from the transliteration of יהוה
The Tetragrammaton originates from the Hebrew Scriptures which is visibly confirmed.

We do not profess that those who do not use Jehovah must be nonbelievers, as I’ve said already:

Jehovah’s Witnesses are not dogmatic about the name of “Jehovah” as the only way to refer to him , yet only the variations that belong to יהוה can be used to be understood about speaking of the Almighty God of the Hebrew scriptures.

The point is the method in which the vowels were added and how this decision came about. The publication is clear on the obscurity of the divine name but doesn’t hesitate to how added these vowels somehow makes the divine name Divine.

The vowels did not make the Divine name divine. יהוה is the Divine name.
The transliteration is the ONLY possible translation of the consonants available, YHVH or YHWH.

The method in which the vowels were added and the decision came about were due to the various Greek transcriptions, such as ιαβε from 1st century greek transcriptions which transliterated is, “iave”.
So, We see combination of the consonants YHWH and the revealed vowels ia-e can, in order, form YiHaVeH.

The publication is clear on the obscurity of the divine name

The ‘obscurity’ is about the exact pronunciation, Not on the existence of יהוה itself.
Therefore, no one has the right to be dogmatic about it being theonly way to call God, but we are accustomed to calling God ‘Jehovah’ because no one is right on the exact pronounciation. The only advantage is that it is the most naturalized manner of speaking the owner of the name יהוה, until He tells us how to pronounce it, because he knows we did our best in letting his name be known.
We do not force people to use “Jehovah”, you people feel that we are, but were not, it’s just that the use of God’s name is what makes the difference between those that recognize יהוה and those that don’t as all of you.

We do not follow in the path of those that want to forget God’s name.(Jeremiah 23:27)

 

[kainosktisis]

This is from 2 John 1 NABRE - USCCB:

7 e Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist.*

8 Look to yourselves that you* do not lose what we worked for but may receive a full recompense.

9 f Anyone who is so “progressive”* as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son.

10 * If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him in your house or even greet him;g

11 for whoever greets him shares in his evil works.

 

[adf417]

Greetings ZouganJehuvus (yes i misspelled your name for reasons i will explain below. Vowels inserted from a TV show i like)

The origin comes from the transliteration of יהוה
The Tetragrammaton originates from the Hebrew Scriptures which is visibly confirmed.

We do not profess that those who do not use Jehovah must be nonbelievers, as I’ve said already:

You will have to somehow convince the JWs in Louisiana. They do not preach this. Good luck as i have been trying for years.

You misunderstood unintentionally. After reading the context personally, it means it is the most known English pronounciation; it has a long history in the English language.

Again, not the point! I dont care (much) about the pronunciation either. I care about the actual name since it is the “divine name” the JWs purport.

The vowels did not make the Divine name divine. יהוה is the Divine name.

The transliteration is the ONLY possible translation of the consonants available, YHVH or YHWH.”

No! Its the only transliteration chosen by the ones who chose it. There are actually many other options such as using the vowels from the word “Genesis” or “Hebrew” or “after thought”.

The method in which the vowels were added and the decision came about were due to the various Greek transcriptions, such as ιαβε from 1st century greek transcriptions which transliterated is, “iave”.

So, We see combination of the consonants YHWH and the revealed vowels ia-e can, in order, form YiHaVeH.

Thats not what the “Aid to Bible Understanding” says. It actually says on pg 884

“The time did come however, when in reading the Hebrew Scriptures in the original language, the Jewish reader substituted either ‘Adho-nay’ (Lord) or ‘Elo-him’ (God) rather than pronounce the divine name represented by the Tetragrammaton. This is seen from the fact that when vowels pointing came into use in the second half of the first millennium C.E. The Jewish inserted the vowel points for either ‘Adho-nay’ or “elo-him” into the Tetragrammaton, evidently to warn the reader to say those words in place of pronouncing the divine name.”

The vowels were added arbitrarily just like the vowels i added to your user name above. Its not your name its not even your user name. If using the divine name is supposed to be so important as the JWs profess isn’t a pseudonym more harmful than good? Its like calling God “Bubba” or “Axel”. Dont you think, given the above pronouncement in the “Aid to Bible Understanding”, that Ps 83:18 of the NWT that reads-

“May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth”,

Should actually read “May people know that you, whose name might be Jehovah…”

Wouldn’t this be more truthful and much less misleading?

I truly don’t mean any disrespect by calling you “ZouganJehuvus” as im sure you don’t by calling God “Jehovah”.

Peace!!!

 

[ZeugenJehovas]

Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh; such is the deceitful one and the antichrist .*

John 1:14 clearly states Jesus came in the flesh. Pretty obvious 2 John 1:7 as the rest of the Bible is right.

You will have to somehow convince the JWs in Louisiana. They do not preach this. Good luck as i have been trying for years.

Too bad they don’t know, they may not have studied diligently.

No! Its the only transliteration chosen by the ones who chose it. There are actually many other options such as using the vowels from the word “Genesis” or “Hebrew” or “after thought”.

YHVH are consonants. A, e, i, o, u are vowels.
My statement is still validly written, they are the only consonants transliterated.
A translation differs from a transliteration, a translation already has a translation made available, while a transliteration transfers the letters from one language to the other. Since from יהוה , YHWH are the consonants available we don’t have a transliteration of vowels. Greek Christians have transcribed God’s name with ιαβε which DOES allow for having vowels readable/available because the vowels are Directly related to God’s Divine name, not indirectly related like “Genesis” or “Hebrew”.

Thats not what the “Aid to Bible Understanding” says

That’s outdated; we use ‘Insight on the Scriptures’.

isn’t a pseudonym more harmful than good? Its like calling God “Bubba” or “Axel”.

JeHoVaH is directly related to ιαβε and יהוה so you did not make a reasonable comparison.
(Y iaH [ou]V eH)
I’ve personally found the italian pronunciation much more closely match it, their variation is Geova. Slightly audible ‘ou’ as YiaHouVeh is being said. Geo = Yiahou, va = Veh. I do not insist in it but just shared my personal opinion based on research.

Dont you think, given the above pronouncement in the “Aid to Bible Understanding”, that Ps 83:18 of the NWT that reads-

“May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth”,

Funny; our Bible title/Publisher’s page clears that from the beginning because it says:

“This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah [יהוה, YHWH] says: ‘. . . Look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, nor will they come up into the heart.’”

Should actually read “May people know that you, whose name might be Jehovah…”

Wouldn’t this be more truthful and much less misleading?

Using Jehovah as His name is as right as using Yahweh (no one has the certain pronunciation nor exact Divinely authorized equivalent translation to his name יהוה), but you don’t see people apologizing for saying Yahweh.

 

[ZeugenJehovas]

I truly don’t mean any disrespect by calling you “ZouganJehuvus” as im sure you don’t by calling God “Jehovah”.

It’s no disrespect until I tell you how to correctly say it, and then you defy me.
Equally with God, he warns, but he did not warn of not allowing his name to be known in its varying pronunciations and spellings of all languages, as have inevitably been the case. (Ezekiel 38:23)
“I will certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.”

Aneityum: Ihova
Arawak: Jehovah
Awabakal: Yehóa
Bangi: Yawe
Batak (Toba): Jahowa
Benga: Jěhova
Bolia: Yawe
Bube: Yehovah
Bullom So: Jehovah
Chácobo: Jahué
Cherokee: Yihowa
Chin (Hakha): Zahova
Chippewa: Jehovah
Choctaw: Chihowa
Chuukese: Jiowa
Croatian: Jehova
Dakota: Jehowa
Dobu: Ieoba
Douala: Yehowa
Dutch: Jehovah
Efate (North): Yehova
Efik: Jehovah
English: Jehovah
Éwé: Yehowa
Fang: Jehôva
Fijian: Jiova
French: IHVH, yhwh
Ga: Iehowa
German: Jehovah; Jehova
Gibario (dialect of Kerewo): Iehova
Grebo: Jehova
Hawaiian: Iehova
Hebrew: יהוה
Hindustani: Yihováh
Hiri Motu: Iehova
Ho-Chunk (Winnebago): Jehowa
Ila: Yaave
Iliku (dialect of Lusengo): Yawe
Indonesian: YAHWEH
Kala Lagaw Ya: Iehovan
Kalanga: Yehova; Yahwe
Kalenjin: Jehovah
Kerewo: Iehova
Kiluba: Yehova
Kipsigis: Jehoba
Kiribati: Iehova
Kisonge: Yehowa
Korean: 여호와
Kosraean: Jeova
Kuanua: Ieova
Laotian: Yehowa
Lele: Jehova
Lewo: Yehova
Lingala: Yawe
Logo: Yehova
Lomongo: Yawe; Yova
Lonwolwol: Jehovah
Lugbara: Yehova
Luimbi: Yehova
Luna: Yeoba
Lunda: Yehova
Luo: Yawe
Luvale: Yehova
Malagasy: Jehovah; Iehôvah
Malo: Iova
Marquesan: Iehova
Marshallese: Jeova
Maskelynes: Iova
Mentawai: Jehoba
Meriam: Iehoua
Misima-Paneati: Iehova
Mizo: Jehovan; Jihova’n
Mohawk: Yehovah
Mortlockese: Jioua
Motu: Iehova
Mpongwe (dialect of Myene): Jehova
Muskogee: Cehofv
Myene: Yeôva
Naga, Angami: Jihova
Naga, Konyak: Jihova
Naga, Lotha: Jihova
Naga, Mao: Jihova
Naga, Northern Rengma: Jihova
Naga, Sangtam: Jihova
Nandi: Jehova
Narrinyeri: Jehovah
Nauruan: Jehova
Navajo: Jîho’vah
Ndau: Jehova
Nembe: Jehovah
Nengone (or, Maré): Iehova
Ngando: Yawe
Ntomba: Yawe
Nukuoro: Jehova
Polish: Jehowa
Portuguese: Iáhve
Rarotongan: Jehova; Iehova
Rerep: Iova
Rotuman: Jihova
Sakao: Ihova; Iehova
Samoan: Ieova
Seneca: Ya’wĕn
Sengele: Yawe
Sesotho: Yehofa
Sie: Iehōva
Spanish: Jehová; Yahvé; YHWH; Yahweh
Sranantongo: Jehova
Sukuma: Yahuwa; Jakwe
Tahitian: Iehova
Teke-Eboo: Yawe
Temne: Yehṓfa; Yehofa
Thai: Yahowa
Toaripi: Jehova; Iehova
Tonga: Jehova
Tongan: Jihova; Sihova
Tshiluba: Yehowa
Tswana: Jehofa; Yehova; Yehofa
Umbundu: Yehova
Uripiv: Iova
Wampanoag: Jehovah
Welsh: Iehofah
Xhosa: Yehova
Zande: Yekova
Zulu: Jehova; YAHWE

 

[adf417]

So in conclusion, “Jehovah” may not actually be God’s name, right?

Peace!!!

 

[adf417]

That’s outdated; we use ‘Insight on the Scriptures’.

It was truth in the 1970’s. Why abandon truth?

Peace!!!

 

[Cruciferi]

All the same, I believe Dr. Henry Jones, Sr. and his son…

 

[kainosktisis]

John 1:14 clearly states Jesus came in the flesh. Pretty obvious 2 John 1:7 as the rest of the Bible is right.

Yes, but is the Jesus of Jehovah’s Witnesses the same as the historical Biblical Jesus, or is He in fact another Jesus? That is the question. And is the Gospel according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses The Gospel or another Gospel?

 

[ZeugenJehovas]

“Jehovah” may not actually be God’s name, right?

Jehovah is one of the few alternatives for God’s hebrew name without it being a title or wrongly representing a different Biblical character.
So, basically, it’s one of the few options scholarly available.
We will not halt using one of the officially identified spellings just because its spelling or pronunciation is unknown.
It is a perfectly acceptable Proper Name, and not merely an appellative title like ‘Lord.’

Is Jesus really Jesus spelled and pronounced as in his time?
His Hebrew transliterated name was Yeshua and yet the Greeks did not hesistate to use Iesous.
Why be picky when those Christians acceptably used a naturalized form of Jesus’ own name?
It is the same christian reasoning we have.

The list are simply many examples, not all.
Its Iehòbha and Iyegova (Иегова)

but is the Jesus of Jehovah’s Witnesses the same as the historical Biblical Jesus?

Yes it’s the Jesus of the historical Bible, there could not be another for us to base off of.

 

[kainosktisis]

Who is Jesus to the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

 

[adf417]

adf417:

“Jehovah” may not actually be God’s name, right?

Jehovah is one of the few alternatives for God’s hebrew name without it being a title or wrongly representing a different Biblical character.
So, basically, it’s one of the few options scholarly available.

Come on ZeugenJehovas!, the vowels were added arbitrarily. Even your documenys show this.

We will not halt using one of the officially identified spellings just because its spelling or pronunciation is unknown.

I dont have a problem with this. My problem is making it the definitive and Holy name. That it is not.

It is a perfectly acceptable Proper Name, and not merely an appellative title like ‘Lord.’

It is perfectly acceptable in my book also but the ambiguity from the arbitrary usage of the vowels by definition makes it non-Holy. Even by your words “one of the few alternatives” depraves the Holiness of the name.

Peace!!!

 

[lilypadrees]

Um, the Jesus Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in is Michael the Archangel. Michael the Archangel is not the Biblical Jesus.

 

[lilypadrees]

Who is Jesus to the Jehovah’s Witnesses?

They believe Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel.

 

[lilypadrees]

Interesting. I didn’t know others believe that too.

 

[BenYosef]

One of the things that rarely ever happens in a discussion about the God of Abraham by Jehovah’s Witnesses is to ask a Jewish person about God’s name, specifically about what is called the “Shem Ha-M’forash.”

Christians often refer to it as the Tetragrammaton, but to Jews it is the Shem Ha-M’forash (which you would know if you had done your research on the subject). It’s important because it means something that the word “tetragrammaton” doesn’t express.

You see, “tetragrammaton” is just a technical word comprised of two smaller Greek words: “tetra” meaning “four” and “grammaton” meaning “letters/word.” In other words, your just saying it’s a “four-letter word.” Doesn’t sound too nice on the surface in the American English vernacular.

Now in Hebrew the expression “shem” is the word for “name.” But it doesn’t mean “name” or even “label.” It means “handle,” such as found on a cup, a saucepan, or even on briefcase. You might even imagine the bit in a horse’s mouth and how it is controlled by the reins in the hands of the rider.

This is what the Hebrew word for “name” (shem) means. When someone names another, they show they have authority and control over that which they name. They show they can handle it. They can summon the person by name. The Gentiles believed that by using the name of a deity you could get its attention, summon it, even gain its favor over others, and thereby somewhat have control over it. They also believed that this was the way to have control over various spirits.

At Exodus 3.13, when Moses was at the burning bush, he asked God the question: “When I come to the Israelites and say to them ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is His name (Hebrew: “shem”)?’ what shall I say to them?”

Verse 14 continues: “And God said to Moses, ‘Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh.’ He continued, ‘Thus shall you say to the Israelites, “Ehyeh sent me to you.”’–NJPS.

“Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh” is basically an “anti-name” or an ineffable name. What does that mean? Well, “Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh” was God saying he doesn’t require a “shem,” a handle, and wasn’t able to given such a thing by humans.

“I AM what I AM” said God. “I become what I become, I prove to be what I prove to be, I am self defining. You don’t name me, I name you. I don’t get summoned by anyone or any expression, by any handle or anything. I can’t be identified by mortal expressions. I AM what I AM and not by what YOU say that I am.”

 

[BenYosef]

As to “Jehovah” and “Yahweh” or terms that are popular among Christians who have filled in the Tetragrammaton for their own purposes regarding the use of the name, the reason Jews don’t do that is because, well, it isn’t really a name. It’s a self-expression, a self-designation that is ineffable. It’s not a handle, nothing you can summon God by or grab God’s attention with or expect to win God’s favor through. God can’t be handled by a name or anything mortals attempt to use to try to control God. Only God is in control of God. Only God proves who God proves to be, not our tongues or words.

As to why we Jews don’t pronounce the name, that’s simple. In Jewish culture the more holy something is, the least it is used. For instance: the tablets of the Ten Commandments were put into a box called the Ark. The Ark was then placed in a room called the Holy of Holies. That room was placed deep in another room called the Holy, which was part of the Tabernacle and then the Temple was something which few had access to or could ever enter. Only the High Priest could enter the most inner chamber, the Holy of Holies, and he could never open the Ark itself to get a glimpse of the Ten Commandments. The average Jew would live their lives never being able to see the inside of the Temple, let alone its inner courtyards leading up to the entrance of the Holy.

The holier something is, the least it gets seen and/or used. Only mundane or everyday things get used on a regular basis. Therefore the Shem Ha-M’forash is not pronounced as it is God’s self-expression of God’s self. We as humans cannot name God. We do not even dare. Therefore as Jews we are silent when it comes to pronouncing the Shem Ha-M’forash. This was the opposite of many pagan customs which felt the more frequently they used the name of their gods, the more holy the names and they as a people were.

When we come to the Shem Ha-M’forash in Scripture or must speak of it, we use other terms to replace it. In the past we used “Adonai” or HaShem (“The Name”) but today we may even use contextual substitutes depending on the context, such as: “Blessed are you, THE IMAGELESS, our God, life of all the worlds, who made me in your image.” (From the Morning Blessings siddur “Kol Haneshamah,” English translation.) It will differ from Jew to Jew and denomination to denomination.

Lastly the writers of the book “The Idiots Guide to Judaism” wrote on this subject, saying: “This was to be the Name beyond pronouncing, to remind people that God is beyond the limitations implied in being named. The four-letter Name is a form of the Hebrew verb ‘to be’ which signifies unlimited Being.”–Rabbi Ted Falcon, Ph. D. & David Blatner.

Of course I doubt any of this will change anyone’s mind. (See https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/27/why-facts-dont-change-our-minds.) But there you have it, from a Jew.

 

[adf417]

Thank you BenYosef for putting this into better terms and more thorough.

Peace!!!

 

[ZeugenJehovas]

You see, “tetragrammaton” is just a technical word comprised of two smaller Greek words: “tetra” meaning “four” and “grammaton” meaning “letters/word.” In other words, your just saying it’s a “four-letter word.” Doesn’t sound too nice on the surface in the American English vernacular.

When in accordance to he context, the four letter word/name was the subject of study.

Verse 14 continues: “And God said to Moses, ‘Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh.’ He continued, ‘Thus shall you say to the Israelites, “Ehyeh sent me to you.”’–NJPS.

אֶהְיֶה is not the same as יְהֹוָה‬
אֶהְיֶה was an expression that God " יְהֹוָה‬ " said.
Why would he say that to the Israelites? It was definitely not for the simple purpose of denying his identifying name, rather to give trust and courage to the Hebrews. “I prove to be what I prove to be”, at the moment according to the context of His command to Moses he meant ‘I will be your Savior because I say it shall be true’. He defines what he is. On the occasion he would be the Savior of Israel.

the reason Jews don’t do that is because, well, it isn’t really a name.

The Jews since Christ’s times were not true to the Holy writings. Christ Jesus denounced the Pharisees and Sadducees publicly for their deviation from the commandments of יְהֹוָה‬ , as the Mishnah which stores recorded tradition to overstep the Law.
If they were already deviated from the Holy writings by then, I expect current Jews do not have sufficient authority to dictate theology, because they are not inclined to hear what has been directed to them, as far as denying the Messiah, Christ Jesus, though he fulfills the Old Testament prophesies that are spoken about him.

 

[ZeugenJehovas]

nothing you can summon God by or grab God’s attention with or expect to win God’s favor through. God can’t be handled by a name or anything mortals attempt to use to try to control God. Only God is in control of God. Only God proves who God proves to be, not our tongues or words.

God gave his identifying name יְהֹוָה‬ , NOT אֶהְיֶה because it is an expression of identification

Isaiah 42:8 God states “I am יְהֹוָה‬ That is my name"
That’s his name, plain and simple SCRIPTURALLY.
He let us know his name to beg to him.

Is it not in the scripture, known as Genesis 24:12, the servant of Abraham called upon Jehovah begging to have success? As also Abraham called on the name of Jehovah (Gen. 13:4)
His name is Not to command/control him, God controls what He wants to control. God יְהֹוָה‬ proves to be what He desires to be, our words do not Make him something He is not.
יְהֹוָה‬ God, (אֶהְיֶה) proves to be what He wants to be.

We understand it this way when we read 3:15 where יְהֹוָה‬ restates what Moses would say fully.
So, He was clear He was indicating the unique kind of God He is, the Almighty.

His name יְהֹוָה‬ remains.

As to why we Jews don’t pronounce the name, that’s simple. In Jewish culture the more holy something is, the least it is used. For instance: the tablets of the Ten Commandments were put into a box called the Ark. The Ark was then placed in a room called the Holy of Holies. That room was placed deep in another room called the Holy, which was part of the Tabernacle and then the Temple was something which few had access to or could ever enter. Only the High Priest could enter the most inner chamber, the Holy of Holies, and he could never open the Ark itself to get a glimpse of the Ten Commandments.

Aside from the main scriptural support/reason which is more heavy reasoning than ‘culture’, the Jews took that Exodus 20:7 meant to not speak it, as many other traditions that overstepped the Law’s meaning, and have MADE it ineffible by not pronouncing it at all. Now for your tradition, you have made no one be able to know how to correctly pronounce His name.

The 10 commandments are in the Ark of the Covenant, and yet we have read what it says.

The holier something is, the least it gets seen and/or used.

The more glorious something is, the more you make mention of it.
The Jews went clearly against the intention of יְהֹוָה‬
As Zephaniah 3:9 says, “I will change the language of the peoples to a pure language,
So that all of them may call on the name of Jehovah,
To serve him shoulder to shoulder.”

And even God’s enemies would know as Ezekiel 36:22-23 demonstrates, "For my holy name, which you profaned among the nations where you have gone.”’ 23 ‘I will certainly sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the nations, which you profaned among them; and the nations will have to know that I am Jehovah.’
He demonstrate He wants to be known, as in Exodus 9:16 “to have my name declared in all the earth”.