Talking about 'enemies' with uncle

[tritcher1988]

Hi, I would appreciate experienced catholic opinions about some issues here: Please evaluate how I responded to my godfather: I am really quite inexperienced with this sort of thing:

My ‘godfather’ (lawyer, catholic, uncle, father, age 45) and I were having a discussion today with his young children present. I couldnt believe some of the things that he was saying! He defended Judas by saying that he was necessary for the salvation of the world. I told him that Judas didn’t seek forgiveness for his sins against Jesus, and then killed himself; and that is why he is villified by the church. He said that we don’t know if Judas committed suicide, and then he cited the ‘Gospel of Judas’ as further justification for Judas, saying that “Judas may have known what was best for Jesus.” I countered saying simply that it is ‘canon’ that Judas committed suicide. He seemed unconvinced.

Next he said that he was “thankful for the Jews and Judas for killing Christ and allowing his salvation.” and that “they are not our enemies.” I replied that they are our enemies because they “espouse different ideas.” and that we are “commanded by Jesus to love our enemies.” He nodded his head a little.

Finally he began talking about the ‘7planks’ of commonality between all major world religions, going on to talk about how similiar catholics are to “Jews, Greeks, Buddhists, Hindus,etc.” I told him that I disagreed completely and that they are fundamentally different in that the eastern religions are “pantheistic, and that their god *is *the world.” and the “Judeo-Christian religions are theistic and that their god *created *the world.” He countered by saying that “the practical everyday teachings look the same between the major religions.” I replied “some of the common details between religions are similiar in appearance, but have different motivations for acting out those details, and are actually opposites.” Then he said “maybe, but we still have sooo much truth to learn from all the beliefs.” I replied, “All of the truth that man will ever need has been revealed in the christian scriptures.” He shrugged his shoulders.

He handed me a booklet that he wrote about the rosary on my way out. I feel embarrased that I challenged my godfather in such a way in front of his family, because he is twice my age. I left his house in a friendly manner, but could not help feeling that my uncle is a heretic. I dont want to read his booklet either. Please advise God Bless!

 

[agnes_therese]

I told him that Judas didn’t seek forgiveness for his sins against Jesus, and then killed himself; and that is why he is villified by the church.

Really? You know what went on in Judas’ heart and mind at the time of his death? Even the Church doesn’t say that Judas is in Hell, you know.

I replied that they are our enemies because they “espouse different ideas.”

Again, I have to ask – really? Everyone who “espouses different ideas” are our enemies?

I replied, “All of the truth that man will ever need has been revealed in the christian scriptures.”

Where does the Church teach that there is no truth in other religions?

He handed me a booklet that he wrote about the rosary on my way out. I feel embarrased that I challenged my godfather in such a way in front of his family, because he is twice my age. I left his house in a friendly manner, but could not help feeling that my uncle is a heretic. I dont want to read his booklet either. Please advise God Bless!

I think you need to learn a lot more about the Catholic faith before you start calling people heretics. I’m glad you’re embarassed. You should be.

 

[Dorothy]

Hi, I would appreciate experienced catholic opinions about some issues here: Please evaluate how I responded to my godfather: I am really quite inexperienced with this sort of thing:

My ‘godfather’ (lawyer, catholic, uncle, father, age 45) and I were having a discussion today with his young children present. I couldnt believe some of the things that he was saying! He defended Judas by saying that he was necessary for the salvation of the world. I told him that Judas didn’t seek forgiveness for his sins against Jesus, and then killed himself; and that is why he is villified by the church. He said that we don’t know if Judas committed suicide, and then he cited the ‘Gospel of Judas’ as further justification for Judas, saying that “Judas may have known what was best for Jesus.” I countered saying simply that it is ‘canon’ that Judas committed suicide. He seemed unconvinced.

Next he said that he was “thankful for the Jews and Judas for killing Christ and allowing his salvation.” and that “they are not our enemies.” I replied that they are our enemies because they “espouse different ideas.” and that we are “commanded by Jesus to love our enemies.” He nodded his head a little.

Finally he began talking about the ‘7planks’ of commonality between all major world religions, going on to talk about how similiar catholics are to “Jews, Greeks, Buddhists, Hindus,etc.” I told him that I disagreed completely and that they are fundamentally different in that the eastern religions are “pantheistic, and that their god *is *the world.” and the “Judeo-Christian religions are theistic and that their god *created *the world.” He countered by saying that “the practical everyday teachings look the same between the major religions.” I replied “some of the common details between religions are similiar in appearance, but have different motivations for acting out those details, and are actually opposites.” Then he said “maybe, but we still have sooo much truth to learn from all the beliefs.” I replied, “All of the truth that man will ever need has been revealed in the christian scriptures.” He shrugged his shoulders.

He handed me a booklet that he wrote about the rosary on my way out. I feel embarrased that I challenged my godfather in such a way in front of his family, because he is twice my age. I left his house in a friendly manner, but could not help feeling that my uncle is a heretic. I dont want to read his booklet either. Please advise God Bless!

I wasn’t there to hear the tone of voices, but I believe that you said a lot of good things. In some things it sounds like you were talking past each other, each of you making a point but not spot on what was at issue.

Perhaps you can read his booklet and if it inspires you, you can tell him about that.

 

[Moore11]

Hi, I would appreciate experienced catholic opinions about some issues here: Please evaluate how I responded to my godfather: I am really quite inexperienced with this sort of thing:

My ‘godfather’ (lawyer, catholic, uncle, father, age 45) and I were having a discussion today with his young children present. I couldnt believe some of the things that he was saying! He defended Judas by saying that he was necessary for the salvation of the world.Using that as a defense is silly but if his point was that an ultimate good was achieved well, then yes, Judas was part of that. I told him that Judas didn’t seek forgiveness for his sins against Jesus, and then killed himself; and that is why he is villified by the church.We dont know this though it is hard to imagine things turned out well for him. We know people are in hell and we know that Jesus said it would have been better if had never been born but we dont “de Fide” teach any specific person is in hell except the Devil, though we know there are people and fallen angels there. He said that we don’t know if Judas committed suicide, and then he cited the ‘Gospel of Judas’ as further justification for Judas, saying that "Judas may have known what was best for Jesus."That is silly and he probably knows that. nhe is probably just trying to show off. I countered saying simply that it is ‘canon’ that Judas committed suicide. He seemed unconvinced. There are other traditions on this but anyone who would spend time siding with Judas or devoting so much time to empathy kind of doesnt get the whole idea of what happened that day.

Next he said that he was “thankful for the Jews and Judas for killing Christ and allowing his salvation.” and that “they are not our enemies.” I replied that they are our enemies because they “espouse different ideas.” and that we are “commanded by Jesus to love our enemies.” He nodded his head a little.You are both so far off on this it is scary. 1 We should never be thankful to anyone who killed our innocent God. including Judas or ourselves. And 2 Jews are not our enemies in fact they are God’s chosen people still and should be treated as such.

Finally he began talking about the ‘7planks’ of commonality between all major world religions, going on to talk about how similiar catholics are to “Jews, Greeks, Buddhists, Hindus,etc.” I told him that I disagreed completely and that they are fundamentally different in that the eastern religions are “pantheistic, and that their god *is *the world.” and the “Judeo-Christian religions are theistic and that their god *created *the world.” He countered by saying that “the practical everyday teachings look the same between the major religions.” I replied “some of the common details between religions are similiar in appearance, but have different motivations for acting out those details, and are actually opposites.” Then he said “maybe, but we still have sooo much truth to learn from all the beliefs.” I replied, “All of the truth that man will ever need has been revealed in the christian scriptures.” He shrugged his shoulders.
Now here you go, both of you are very wrong again. Scriptures contain Truth but so does the Church herself. And he is a relativist.
He handed me a booklet that he wrote about the rosary on my way out. I feel embarrased that I challenged my godfather in such a way in front of his family, because he is twice my age. I left his house in a friendly manner, but could not help feeling that my uncle is a heretic. I dont want to read his booklet either. Please advise God Bless!

A case of the blind leading the blind here. I would suggest good orthodox spiritual leadership for each of you. Find a faithful and knowledgeable priest and educate your souls.

 

[Lancer]

He suffers from “chair-phobia”…what he is saying to Saint Peter (Pope Benedict)…is:

*Ah…excuse me Peter, but you are sitting in my chair!
*
Ask his what Luke 10: 16 means to him…Jesus’ gives orders to the apostles as he sends them out to the towns:

Luke 10:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 “Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Ask him what part of “apostolic” he does not understand:

Nicene Creed
I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

Instead of being immersed in the deep riches of the mysteries of Catholic faith…he is steeped in the mysteries of deep confusion…it is a boring Ego-Drama…the Catholic Theo-drama is really much more exciting (Father Barron)

Pax Christi

 

[chosen_people]

Hi, I would appreciate experienced catholic opinions about some issues here: Please evaluate how I responded to my godfather: I am really quite inexperienced with this sort of thing:

My ‘godfather’ (lawyer, catholic, uncle, father, age 45) and I were having a discussion today with his young children present. I couldnt believe some of the things that he was saying! He defended Judas by saying that he was necessary for the salvation of the world. I told him that Judas didn’t seek forgiveness for his sins against Jesus, and then killed himself; and that is why he is villified by the church. He said that we don’t know if Judas committed suicide, and then he cited the ‘Gospel of Judas’ as further justification for Judas, saying that “Judas may have known what was best for Jesus.” I countered saying simply that it is ‘canon’ that Judas committed suicide. He seemed unconvinced.

Next he said that he was “thankful for the Jews and Judas for killing Christ and allowing his salvation.” and that “they are not our enemies.” I replied that they are our enemies because they “espouse different ideas.” and that we are “commanded by Jesus to love our enemies.” He nodded his head a little.

Finally he began talking about the ‘7planks’ of commonality between all major world religions, going on to talk about how similiar catholics are to “Jews, Greeks, Buddhists, Hindus,etc.” I told him that I disagreed completely and that they are fundamentally different in that the eastern religions are “pantheistic, and that their god *is *the world.” and the “Judeo-Christian religions are theistic and that their god *created *the world.” He countered by saying that “the practical everyday teachings look the same between the major religions.” I replied “some of the common details between religions are similiar in appearance, but have different motivations for acting out those details, and are actually opposites.” Then he said “maybe, but we still have sooo much truth to learn from all the beliefs.” I replied, “All of the truth that man will ever need has been revealed in the christian scriptures.” He shrugged his shoulders.

He handed me a booklet that he wrote about the rosary on my way out. I feel embarrased that I challenged my godfather in such a way in front of his family, because he is twice my age. I left his house in a friendly manner, but could not help feeling that my uncle is a heretic. I dont want to read his booklet either. Please advise God Bless!

“but bring those enemies of mine, who do not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me” Luke 19:27

 

[Hokomai]

Let me introduce myself. I am an unbeliever. I do not believe any of the things in which you express belief in your OP. I also don’t believe in anything you report your godfather as saying. But I am able to see that you are in substantial agreement - God, Jesus as redeemer, redemption through Jesus’ death, etc. what I don’t get about religious people is that you head straight for the disagreements, and pronounce the other to be a heretic. Why don’t you seek out people like me to disagree with you? At least we do!

 

[tritcher1988]

Thank you all so much for your critiques! They are important to me, and I have spent hours considering your many ideas. In the future I hope to represent the Church’s teachings accurately when debating or speaking impromptu on religious topics. I hope to eventually visit on each thought that you all have presented here:

Firstly, agnes therese:

I appreciate your concern and am honored by your critique: However I resolve that the stands that I took against my uncle remain firm: Please, let us begin our discussion with Judas: My priest recently gave a homily about how evil and sinful the treachery of Judas was. He talked about how we are not to follow in Judas’s example, and that Judas could have sought forgiveness in Christ, but chose not to: And in doing so he denied Christ. The Priest also said that today there is a tendency for people to accept Judas’s actions as legitimate because doing so makes their own actions seem okay. This is my conception of who Judas is. I would ask, Who is Judas Iscariot to you?

 

[agnes_therese]

Thank you all so much for your critiques! They are important to me, and I have spent hours considering your many ideas. In the future I hope to represent the Church’s teachings accurately when debating or speaking impromptu on religious topics. I hope to eventually visit on each thought that you all have presented here:

Firstly, agnes therese:

I appreciate your concern and am honored by your critique: However I resolve that the stands that I took against my uncle remain firm: Please, let us begin our discussion with Judas: My priest recently gave a homily about how evil and sinful the treachery of Judas was. He talked about how we are not to follow in Judas’s example, and that Judas could have sought forgiveness in Christ, but chose not to: And in doing so he denied Christ. The Priest also said that today there is a tendency for people to accept Judas’s actions as legitimate because doing so makes their own actions seem okay. This is my conception of who Judas is. I would ask, Who is Judas Iscariot to you?

Of course Judas’ treachery was sinful. I didn’t see anyone here say otherwise, nor did I see anyone here say his actions were “legitimate.”
The fact remains that, unless you know what went on in his heart and soul at the time of his death, you don’t know that he didn’t ask forgiveness.

 

[Darran]

Just because God can manipulate evil most certainly doesn’t mean that the evil is necessary.

Matthew 26:24 is a critical hit to his ideas regardless.

“The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born”.

The only two views on this passage can be:
A: Jesus, being infinite, speaking in advance of Judas’ damnation

or

B: The dread showed by Jesus indicates that the sin was a real sin and NOT good intentions (that is a pretty ridiculous idea).

Indeed God said to love your enemies, but He did NOT say to love His enemies. Judas is wherever he deserved now, passing judgement on that is useless, but rationalizing his sin is plain stupidity.

 

[tritcher1988]

Ok; good, thank you both for your ideas about Judas; I feel resolved on that issue for now.

Please, let us continue by discussing the Christian idea of ‘enemy’: I told my uncle that “people who espouse different ideas are our enemies.” If I could go back in time, I would change that statement to: “those who deny Jesus are my enemy.” I have noticed that Catholic people have difficulty in recognizing others as their enemy. I have also noticed that the world associates violence with the word ‘enemy.’ Yet I simply do not agree that we are to treat our enemies with violence and hate, but rather that we are to love them as our own, by helping them to attain salvation through Christ:

Luke 6:27: But I say to you that hear: Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you.

At the same time, It is necessary battle them with words. By acknowledging them as ‘enemy’ it prevents their lies and ignorance from wounding me, and allows me to explain to them the Church’s truths. Now I would ask you: Who is your ‘enemy’ and how do you treat them?

 

[Darran]

Ok; good, thank you both for your ideas about Judas; I feel resolved on that issue for now.

Please, let us continue by discussing the Christian idea of ‘enemy’: I told my uncle that “people who espouse different ideas are our enemies.” If I could go back in time, I would change that statement to: “those who deny Jesus are my enemy.” I have noticed that Catholic people have difficulty in recognizing others as their enemy. I have also noticed that the world associates violence with the word ‘enemy.’ Yet I simply do not agree that we are to treat our enemies with violence and hate, but rather that we are to love them as our own, by helping them to attain salvation through Christ:

Luke 6:27: But I say to you that hear: Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you.

At the same time, It is necessary battle them with words. By acknowledging them as ‘enemy’ it prevents their lies and ignorance from wounding me, and allows me to explain to them the Church’s truths. Now I would ask you: Who is your ‘enemy’ and how do you treat them?

The right answer to “who is your enemy?” has to be “satan (which ofcourse, means enemy)” but that is a different conversation to: “love your enemies” as it instead concerns Gods enemy.

Maybe a better way to think of it is not to have any enemies of our own, which are always petty or originate from some one of our own imperfections. You can’t hate what you love.

(According to fallible old me)

But I think the definition you use of “enemy” might be a little different, atleast to me.

 

[agnes_therese]

I certainly don’t consider all followers of other religions to be my “enemy.” In fact, that concept strikes me as very un-Christian. I do agree with Darran about Satan being the enemy.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Pray for him. And pray for him fervently.

You can also take this opportunity to conduct a thorough investigation of the issues raised and find a host of authorities to defend the traditional doctrine with. The Summa, the Commentaries on the Scriptures by the Church Fathers (and the teaching of the Church Fathers in general), the Councils and Papal Encyclicals are all useful for polling, as it were, the Catholic doctrine on the matter.

I would advise strongly against debating him in the presence of children, however, if he is saying such things. Perhaps try keep your exchanges over email.

 

[1AugustSon7]

I certainly don’t consider all followers of other religions to be my “enemy.” In fact, that concept strikes me as very un-Christian. I do agree with Darran about Satan being the enemy.

You don’t think Satan (it actually means adversary) is our enemy!? Goodness gracious man; what, do you think Satan is the type to give you a hand up if you’ve fallen into a pit? Oh, he might reach out his hand to you, but once you reach for it, he will pull away and watch you fall again, whilst having himself a good laugh. Even Satan would think you ridiculous for presuming any good-will on his part toward us: he absolutely hates humanity and certainly is our enemy. Misery loves company, and the Devil is going to Hell and wants to drag as many souls down there with him as he can.

 

[Darran]

You don’t think Satan (it actually means adversary) is our enemy!? Goodness gracious man; what, do you think Satan is the type to give you a hand up if you’ve fallen into a pit? Oh, he might reach out his hand to you, but once you reach for it, he will pull away and watch you fall again, whilst having himself a good laugh. Even Satan would think you ridiculous for presuming any good-will on his part toward us: he absolutely hates humanity and certainly is our enemy. Misery loves company, and the Devil is going to Hell and wants to drag as many souls down there with him as he can.

I’m sorry, I think you might have misread him.

Just noticing too, thanks for spelling my name right Agnes Therese

 

[agnes_therese]

Perhaps you could consider actually READING posts before you respond?

I specificially said I agree with Darran about Satan, and Darran specifically said that Satan IS the enemy.

You don’t think Satan (it actually means adversary) is our enemy!? Goodness gracious man; what, do you think Satan is the type to give you a hand up if you’ve fallen into a pit? Oh, he might reach out his hand to you, but once you reach for it, he will pull away and watch you fall again, whilst having himself a good laugh. Even Satan would think you ridiculous for presuming any good-will on his part toward us: he absolutely hates humanity and certainly is our enemy. Misery loves company, and the Devil is going to Hell and wants to drag as many souls down there with him as he can.

 

[tritcher1988]

Thank you for sharing your opinions about ‘enemies’: It seems that we agree amongst ourselves that satan himself is our enemy. Additionally, I reason that the people who do not accept Christ are living under the influence of the evil one, and spread his lies. The people who believe in other religions or in no religion have accepted the evil one’s lies. They are ignorant of the truth, but I do not hate them for this: I only wish to show them Jesus as the way, yet first I must define them as adversary. I would ask you, how do you negotiate with non-believers?

 

[Allegra]

Thank you for sharing your opinions about ‘enemies’: It seems that we agree amongst ourselves that satan himself is our enemy. Additionally, I reason that the people who do not accept Christ are living under the influence of the evil one, and spread his lies. The people who believe in other religions or in no religion have accepted the evil one’s lies. They are ignorant of the truth, but I do not hate them for this: I only wish to show them Jesus as the way, yet first I must define them as adversary. I would ask you, how do you negotiate with non-believers?

I think I understand what you meant by “enemy”, but I think that word is too strong to use in that context. Most people think of an enemy as someone who is willfully hurting them or someone who they hate. If you are actively engaged in a religious debate with someone, I think it is fair to call them an adversary but that’s about it.

 

[DanielSisk]

Really? You know what went on in Judas’ heart and mind at the time of his death? Even the Church doesn’t say that Judas is in Hell, you know.

Again, I have to ask – really? Everyone who “espouses different ideas” are our enemies?

Where does the Church teach that there is no truth in other religions?

I think you need to learn a lot more about the Catholic faith before you start calling people heretics. I’m glad you’re embarassed. You should be.

Everything this person said. Truth is present in all religion and NO religion is our “enemy” for espousing different ideas. Heretic is a mighty word and it was not in the correct context.