Talking about Lourdes

[Cup_o_Joe]

How do I speak to a anti-catholic evangelical about Lourdes, I tried talking to him about a miracle I saw (a man healed from Polio) after he went to mass then went into the bath. This guy I’m talking to on youtube actually insists that because he did those things that all of the miracles in Lourdes are from Satan and that Our lady of Lourdes was a demon disguised as the Holy Mother. I shouldn’t keep talking to this confused man should I? He refuses to read anything remotely catholic, he refuses to come to the forum, he refuses to listen to John Corapi, He’s so tight in his ego that he even refuses to listen to Catholic Answers live to answer his questions. His mindset is “I think, therefore I am.” He even spit on the litany of humility which is solely about Jesus. I shouldn’t keep talking to this confused man should I?

 

[DavidFilmer]

because he did those things that all of the miracles in Lourdes are from Satan and that Our lady of Lourdes was a demon disguised as the Holy Mother.

That’s bizarre. I don’t follow the logic.

Did Jesus not command the blind man to go wash in the Pool of Siolam? (John 9:7). And was the man not healed?

How is the healing of the guy at Lourdes fundamentally different than the healing of the blind man? Does this guy simply not believe in Divine healing?

 

[Cup_o_Joe]

Okay, I replied to him, I’ll see how he reacts.
joeb0:

<< “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing. >>

how is this any different than Lourdes, France? Do you not believe that Jesus is present here today even though he said he’d be with us until the end of time? (Matthew 28:20)

Be careful in discerning the Works of God and of Satan. You just might be insulting the most Holy Trinity. Please pray to the Holy Spirit before using your tongue.

 

[Axion]

One of the chief reasons that some Protestants question Marian Apparitions is because those apparitions confirm Catholic practice and theology, and so the apparitions become a threat to their theology.

So are Marian appearances in accordance with scripture?

Ac 2:17 - And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

The simple fact is that throughout history God has sent messages to men, and many times men have not liked those messages because they disagreed with their preferred philosophies, and drove the messengers away.
*Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often have i wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

But when God sends messages and performs miracles to validate them, He is NOT pleased when those messages are ignored.
Matthew 11.21 "Woe to you, Chora’zin! woe to you, Beth-sa’ida! for if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Caper’na-um, will you be exalted to heaven? You shall be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you."

Some sectarians suggest the apparitions might be demonic! An astonishing charge. But it is nothing new. In fact this was precisely the charge that the pharisees made against Jesus - that His healing power came from the devil.
Jesus says this:
Mark3 25-26 "If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come."

In all the approved Marian appearances Mary calls for prayer and repentance, and for people to follow Jesus. As we can see from the above, Satan cannot do this.

1 Cor 12.3: You know when you were pagans somehow or other you were influenced by and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says “Jesus be cursed”. and no one can say Jesus is Lord" except by the Holy Spirit."

At Guadeloupe Mary proclaimed Her Son, Jesus, as Lord. At Fatima, She gave the Children a new prayer: ** “Oh my Jesus, forgive us, save us from the fire of hell. Lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are most in need**.”

How else are we told in the Bible to discern whether things are of God or not?

Matthew 7:15-20
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits.

The fruits of the approved Marian Apparitions have been overwhelmingly for good, inspiring revival of devotion, healing, spiritual growth and the increase of Faith.

 

[Cup_o_Joe]

joeb0:

There’s a huge difference if he would have implied it metephoracly he would not have repeated himself so many times and said truly truly so many times, and his disciples would not have left him. right now you are among the disciples who left Jesus by rejecting his teaching on the Eucharist, but you can still come back to Him. His body and Blood is the manna of Life. Whoso eats his flesh and drinks his blood will not perish but receive everlasting life.
DO NOT ignore Jesus, you soul hangs in the balance. He is calling you to himself. Just look at the physical proof He gives us:

youtube.com/watch?v=kE2ytX-mUJw

youtube.com/watch?v=N6SH93arrIE

youtube.com/watch?v=8zTikIjz2l8

youtube.com/watch?v=A5zsvHFDCs4

youtube.com/watch?v=bMtKobWQB-0

I presented the poor man with a few Eucharistic Miracle videos and this is how he responded.

protestant:

I refuse to look at GARBAGE ~~ Im talking Bible and you want to Give me VIDEOS Without Refuting What IM SAYING ?

I wonder Why ?

BTW I did talk scripture all afternoon and then talked about John six, he ignored all of it and replied with that.

 

[JRKH]

I know it is hard, but you are fighting a losing battle at this time. This person is completely closed to the workings of the Holy Spirit.
While you may find that you are able to “hone” some skills in talking with this person, it is unlikely that it will be you who breaks through his shell of hate. I say that because the longer you debate him, the more entrenched he will likely become against you. The best you can hope for is to plant some seeds and hopefully, down the road, the Holy Spirit will bring these seeds to life in him.

Pray for Him.

Peace
James

 

[Cup_o_Joe]

Thanks for the responses.

Here’s how I ended the conversation.
joeb0:

You believe that Jesus’ eternal sacrifice is garbage, that he gives himself physically to you is garbage? that He humbles himself so much that he places himself into your blood production system (digestive system) to become your blood and become your flesh and you call the miracles of your Creator garbage? The miracle of Luciano still has yet to be disproved by scientists. The flesh from the Eucharist has not corrupted in 1200 years. For the sake of your immortal soul, I hope you wakeup to see what you are missing, Jesus is waiting for you and always has. Not to worry, you only insulted Jesus and not the Holy Spirit. You can still repent, when you are ready and willing. In the mean time I will step back and leave you with those videos to think about. I will make a playlist containing the videos I sent you throughout this conversation for future reference.

 

[JRKH]

Thanks for the responses.

Here’s how I ended the conversation.

Nice response

In the end all of this comes down to an issue of authority.
Sometimes when I know I am reaching a dead end, I pull out Mt 18: 15-18 (one of my favorites) and ask the other person this. "We have discussed these differences, We have called in other witnesses to verify our positions, Yet still we have not reached an agreement. I say it is time we invoke Jesus own instruction, recorded in Matthew, on how to proceed and “Tell it To The Church”. Then I invite them to tell me how we should proceed to obey this Biblical instruction.

Sometimes they come back with, “That refers to someone who sins against you”. to which I respond, is not the teaching of false doctrine not a sin?? (obviously we both think the other is teaching wrong doctrine).

The conversation generally ends shortly thereafter, because a SS Protestant cannot, a) legitimately tell me that my interpretation is any less valid than theirs, (personal interpretation is like that) or b) go to an authoritative “church” to settle the matter becuase of point “a”.
It does however plant one of theose seeds that can get them thinking about what constitutes legitimate authority.

Peace
James

 

[DavidFilmer]

I presented the poor man with a few Eucharistic Miracle videos

FWIW, I really, really, really try to avoid the topic of modern miracles (Eucharistic, Marian, or otherwise) in apologetic discussions. If the other person wants to talk specific instances then I will usually try to steer him/her to the underlying doctrinal principles.

The problem with “miracles” is that they are (apparently) not limited to the Catholic Church. There have been events that have occurred within pagan religions which are impossible to explain through natural sciences (which, by definition, makes them supernatural).

For example, for a brief period, various idol statues of Hindu gods “drank” many gallons of milk where were offered by thousands of people (including skeptical journalists, scientists, and non-Hindus). Small metal idols placed on open card-tables “drank” many gallons of milk, in front of thousands of people. These events occurred worldwide, and were witnessed by many millions of people.

See the Wikipedia Page on the Hindu Milk Miracle.

I’m a logical, scientific sort of guy (I’m an engineer and a computer programmer). But I cannot imagine a natural explanation for this event, nor do I accept the silly “scientific” explanations which have been proffered.

But I am not, in any way, persuaded by these events that Hinduism is true.

When a skeptic is confronted with Catholic “miracles” and Hindu “miracles” which seem to justify contradictory religious systems, then s/he is (rightly) justified in rejecting them all.

Miracles are flashy, but you must dig deeper to convert true skeptics. “Signs and Wonders” are not enough (or, really, anything at all).

 

[Mark77]

**i agree with David, limit the conversation to key theological differences, ONE AT A TIME!
**
#1 The Eucharist (John 6)

#2 The Canon of the Bible (without the Catholic Church, there is no Bible!)

#3 The Bible Alone? (Not in the bible, Jesus never taught this!)

#4 Apostolic Authority and the Papacy

Once these topics have been thoroughly discussed, then Marian Doctrines and Apparitions could be brought up.

(it’s like the abortion argument, if you don’t prove with scientific evidence, not personal opinion or feelings…etc., that life begins at conception, then the rest of your efforts are wasted because if i think a bay is not human life until birth, then you won’t convince me that abortion before birth is a grave evil!)

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Cup_o_Joe]

done, done, done, done, done and done.

After a while, he became very angry that I wouldn’t budge so he left the conversation. I looked his username up in google and he’s been in these same arguments for months, after he notices that walls of bible quotes doesn’t affect our beliefs he just gets angry then leaves without reading any church document. I even shared with him the prayer for humility and he said he refuses to read a prayer made by a Catholics. Months he’s been annoying catholic apologists on youtube. All we can do is pray for him, he’s been brainwashed by evangelical John MacArthur.

 

[JRKH]

done, done, done, done, done and done.

After a while, he became very angry that I wouldn’t budge so he left the conversation. I looked his username up in google and he’s been in these same arguments for months, after he notices that walls of bible quotes doesn’t affect our beliefs he just gets angry then leaves without reading any church document. I even shared with him the prayer for humility and he said he refuses to read a prayer made by a Catholics. Months he’s been annoying catholic apologists on youtube. All we can do is pray for him, he’s been brainwashed by evangelical John MacArthur.

Well - Praise God and the Holy Spirit for providing you with a way to hone your skills in defending the faith.

Frustrting as they are, I have learned a great deal from these types of “discussions”.

Peace
James

 

[Cup_o_Joe]

Me too, now I will try and be a catholic evangelist. I stopped doing it at one time because I was scared but now that I know the Our beliefs support the Bible, I am going to go tell protestant churches in my area and let everyone know even if they pick me up and throw me out of the door, fine. Like Father Corapi said in Buffalo, the Holy Spirit is not a cowardly Spirit. I am not going to stand by while people lie about the church behind our backs. I went to a youth meeting once and a man was doing a presentation that he went to germany to “save” people he said more than half the population don’t believe in Christ and he even said that 97% of the Irish aren’t saved. I was so angry when he said that that I didn’t show up to that church for a long time but I will go back and tell my uncle and his congregation the truth, that we Catholics are Christians whether they REALIZE IT OR NOT! I’ll bring my Bible and my Catechism with me even so that if they ask questions, I can look it up.

 

[Cup_o_Joe]

Well, he seems to want to speak again so I’m trying.
joeb0:

you don’t seem to learn do you? How many times do we Catholics have to try to show you the truth before you accept it? Watch the videos in the playlist I gave you. Revelations and Apologetics.

protestant:

Truth what truth ?
Salvation is by Grace through Faith in Scripture by trusting in the Finished Work of Christ on Calvary.
Not by trusting in the rituals of a System.
The best question ever is what must I do to be Saved Acts 16:30-31 ~~ the answer was simple.
Ask any RC and they cannot answer that .
So what truth are you trying to convey that can Save a person, and make him right with God ?
I’m sure I shall get an interesting answer.

joeb0:

That verse applies to every single teaching of the Catholic Church. Jesus is the head of the church and we are his members. Once again you try to find contradiction where there is none. The Bible, whether you accept it or not is a church document written by its founders. I thought you would know that, especially considering you listen to John MacArthur. Here’s a quote from him.

John MacArthur wrote that: << The word “head” is the Greek word kephale, which speaks of being first, prominent, or supreme. As the Head, Christ has all the authority in His church. >> When he says that, he doesn’t even know that he’s indirectly Supporting the Catholic Church. Read John 15, and Ephesians 5 :22 - 33 you’ll understand more after you do if you pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you in the Way

Protestant:

And your point is?
I understand that the greek is “Kephale” Christ is indeed Head of the Church and He is still head of the Church in heaven awaiting his return to gather it to himself.
And the Holy Ghost is His Vicar on earth, not a human being.
This is far from supporting the Catholic church.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. John 15:3
I like that verse ~ gives a description of the Believer and his standing before God.
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:16
Again talking about a relationship not a religion.

Jesus in John 15 is talking about two different crowds ~ go through it and you will discover this truth.
I am trying to understand you point about John 15, as you made none.

Ephesians 5 : 22-33 ~~ I agree Christ purchased the Church and he is the Head, its not a church of unregenerate people, its a body of Saved people.

That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish Ephesians 5:27
This is the church Christ is head of, not a body of people who are far away from him.

Again I agree Christ is the Head of his church ~ Holy Ghost is His Vicar, those who have been partakers of His nature and part of that Holy Body.
There is NO EARTHLY HEAD ~ because the Holy Ghost guides into all truth, and he uses the Scriptures to do this.
Again what is your point about Ephesians 5.

joeb0:

That it’s Jesus who is in charge of the church, not just the vicar. The vicar is there to make sure we stay on the right path so that we can continue to have a relationship with Christ. Christ made the Catholic Priesthood, to guide his people towards the Most Holy Trinity. Christ established ONE Church on Earth. Only The Catholic Church, western and eastern that has Apostolic Succession and can go back in history directly to its founder, Jesus Christ. Also, The Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus is Fully Man and Fully God. Also, the scriptures is not the entire history of the church, St. Paul said it himself that there will be successors after himself who will continue on teaching the Word of God. (the saints)

Jesus is the Head and he said he would be with us to the end of time and he is, in the Eucharist. The Holy Spirit brings us to Him through apostolic succession of the Priesthood started by Jesus Christ. (read Hebrews, in there it shows that there is a new priesthood, that calvary IS once, and that we partake in it)

<<Hebrews 13: 9-18

9 Do not be led astray by all sorts of strange doctrines: it is better to rely on grace for inner strength than on food, which has done no good to those who concentrate on it.

10 We have our own altar from which those who serve the Tent have no right to eat.
11 The bodies of the animals whose blood is taken into the sanctuary by the high priest for the rite of expiation are burnt outside the camp,
12 and so Jesus too suffered outside the gate to sanctify the people with his own blood.
13 Let us go to him, then, outside the camp, and bear his humiliation.
14 There is no permanent city for us here; we are looking for the one which is yet to be.
15 Through him, let us offer God an unending sacrifice of praise, the fruit of the lips of those who acknowledge his name.
16 Keep doing good works and sharing your resources, for these are the kinds of sacrifice that please God.
17 Obey your leaders and give way to them; they watch over your souls because they must give an account of them; make this a joy for them to do, and not a grief – you yourselves would be the losers.
18 Pray for us; we are sure that our own conscience is clear and we are certainly determined to behave honourably in everything we do.
19 I ask you very particularly to pray that I may come back to you all the sooner.
20 I pray that the God of peace, who brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great Shepherd of the sheep, by the blood that sealed an eternal covenant,
21 may prepare you to do his will in every kind of good action; effecting in us all whatever is acceptable to himself through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
22 I urge you, brothers, to take these words of encouragement kindly; that is why I have written to you briefly.
23 I want you to know that our brother Timothy has been set free. If he arrives in time, he will be with me when I see you.
24 Greetings to all your leaders and to all God’s holy people. God’s holy people in Italy send you greetings.
25 Grace be with you all.>>

If you read all of Hebrews you will see that verse 9 he’s talking about the food laws in Leviticus and the lamb of sacrifice at passover.

Verse 10 to 13, Paul is talking about Jesus himself. No one has a right to eat the body and blood of Jesus, it’s highest privilege anyone could possibly have. This chapter shows that we can be there WITH Jesus at calvary. That’s the Mystery of the Eucharist. Jesus’ Sacrifice transcends time and space itself. That’s why Paul says to take the body and blood with a pure heart in 1st Corinthians 10 and 11.

 

[Cup_o_Joe]

protestant:

Why are you talking about the Eucharist ~ I was saying who was Head of the Church JESUS CHRIST ~~ and the Vicar of Christ is the Holy Ghost.
Do you want me to give you the Texts ?
Lastly the Church cannot Save, the Church consists of Saved people, Saved people cannot Save anyone.

Its the Gospel Message that when believed and APPLIED Saves, and you can know it ~ 1st John 5:11-13.

There is no such thing as a N/T Sacrifical Priesthood ~ its not in Scripture, and the Memorial meal was never a Sacrifice, Nowhere is this even hinted at.

The Pope cannot be an Apostle like Peter, like Paul because he cannot meet the Qualifications, Do you even know the qualifications to be a true Apostle.
Bible also mentions False Apostles, how can you tell that which is true from that which is False ?

I would not trust Popes ~ because they have erred so many times And contradicted Scripture.
True Vicar is the Holy Ghost ~ and all believers have Him Eph 1:13-14

Salvation is trusting in a finished work, not un bloody sacrifices which is a major contradiction in itself.

Question : if the Mass is UNBLOODY ~~ why does the wine supposedly turn into blood ? ~~ is there blood on the Altar RCC would says yes ~~ so why is the Mass unbloody ~~ CONTRADICTION.
Why does not the Laity get to drink the Wine ? they are disobeying John 6
Many many contradictions ~ Ive got lots more if you would like to hear them.

Did you read the book of Hebrews ? it destroys Catholicism
Hebrews 8:4 ~ maybe you would help me with that

Read the qualifications of a Melchizedek Priest in Hebrews 7 : 20-28 and askyourself can any Human Qualify ? I guess not !!

Hebrews 9 & 10 dispute the Rcc priesthood totally.

Read the book right through ~~ it speaks for itself.

What must I do to be Saved Acts 16:30-31 ~~ a catholic priest would say go to Mass ~~ thats a big joke isnt it.

I can’t seem to do anything, he takes every word I say and ignores it. even if it’s clear.

Here’s my formulated response up to now.,
joeb0:

<<In fact, if He were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are others who make the offerings laid down by the Law.>>

Jesus is the offering, HE MADE THE LAW. He is on earth and in heaven Remember Hebrews 13? Paradox and Contradiction is not the same thing.

BTW, the laity CAN drink the wine. No there’s no contridiction there. Jesus is God, his blood is not from an animal, KNOW THE DIFFERENCE between Leviticus and the New Covenant. Also, In Hebrews 8:5, it proves that the mass is a reflection of heaven because even Paul talks about it here:

<<though these maintain the service only of a model or a reflection of the heavenly realities; just as Moses, when he had the Tent to build, was warned by God who said: See that you work to the design that was shown you on the mountain.>>

To that asertion, don’t forget that we’re human and we’re on earth, it is a reflexion of heaven, that also shows that Jesus in the Eucharist as the reflexion of his physical body in heaven. Meaning that he is both in heaven and on earth. Also, if Paul wasn’t serious, then why would he say in chapter 13 that <<the priest is not worthy of the tabernacle?>>

Can you guys help me make a better response than this? I haven’t sent him that last remark yet.

 

[JRKH]

I can’t seem to do anything, he takes every word I say and ignores it. even if it’s clear.

Here’s my formulated response up to now.,

Can you guys help me make a better response than this? I haven’t sent him that last remark yet.

What I have to say may not be of much help, but here it goes.

“Protestant” has refused to look at, read, or otherwise entertain anything “Catholic”. He will only engage on his own terms of spewing Bible verses - many out of context.

I think that at this point you need tell him that, if he will not look at anything catholic, he must stop reading your posts because by so doing he is reading something “catholic”.
Tell him that, if he is willing to cintinue reading your “Catholic” posts, then he also needs to be willing to read other thing scatholic so that he can find out what Catholics Really believe. Because at this point he does not.

Just my 2c

Peace
James

 

[Cup_o_Joe]

Well, he is finally reading catholic stuff. I told him that the answers to his questions about Hebrews are in Light of All nations by Pope Paul VI. He said he’d read it and hasn’t responded yet because I gave him Lumen Gentium to read to answer his questions, which is 65 pages long and has 304 bible quotes in context, many of which is from 1st Peter and Hebrews

 

[JRKH]

Well, he is finally reading catholic stuff. I told him that the answers to his questions about Hebrews are in Light of All nations by Pope Paul VI. He said he’d read it and hasn’t responded yet because I gave him Lumen Gentium to read to answer his questions, which is 65 pages long and has 304 bible quotes in context, many of which is from 1st Peter and Hebrews

Praise God.

It may well be that now even greater patience will be required. His first reaction could be to read these with the intent of proving them wrong. I pray not, but please don’t be surprised…

Anyway - He’s reading them and with an open Heart I hope.

Peace
James