Talking Points with Witnesses?

[CutlerB]

Introduction
I was messaged by a JW friend of mine on Facebook yesterday. He recommended I watch a TV programme about the Vatican that was on at the time. It was entitled “Benedict’s Via Dolorosa” and gave an overview of important points during his Pontificate. Among the ones mentioned were the IOR (“Vatican bank”), the abuse scandal and Vatileaks.

He asked me for my opinion on it, and so we talked. I stated that while my expectations were rather mixed before I watched it, the documentary turned out to be better (though not perfect) than expected. However, I took issue with certain statements made. One of them was the characterisation of the sexual abuse scandal as a “paedophilia crisis in the Church”. I made clear that paedophilia is an absolute exception among the horrible crimes committed, and that most cases were cases of homosexuality among the offenders. That’s what got us into talking about more Church stuff.

I was asked about my opinion on Pope Francis, to which I gladly made three observations I had: First, that I liked him and admired his humility and love for the poor. Second was that I had absolutely no concerns about him being a “liberal” or “reformer”, in the sense that he would institute women priests and abolish celibacy, since he is orthodox and protected by Infallibility. Thirdly, I observed his obviously different and more simple style than Benedict, but stated that one could not pit the two against each other since every Pope is different. Though I said I favoured Benedicts “style” of dress and liturgy, I made clear I had no problem with Francis’.

His comments
My Witness friend stated he admired Pope Francis’ “attitude towards all the gold and so forth”, seeing in that an “back to the roots” attitude. Concerning the IOR, he believed that Francis would not be able to repair the “broken system in the Vatican”, but would only be able to turn it into a giant PR image. Clean the façade, but shove all the rubbish inside, so to speak.

My question
Now, I have posted a thread in the Prayer Intentions forum asking for prayers for his conversion, and for me to find charitable and truthful words when approached or talking to him about the Faith. In conjunction with that, I am wondering whether any of you, maybe even ex-Witnesses, have ideas of questions I could ask him that could get us into talking about the Truth of the Catholic Faith.

As an example, I could think of historical questions. The founding of the Catholic Church by Christ for example. Or similarly, whether there have always been true Christians. Do you have any points I could talk to him about, questions I could ask to get him thinking? Preferably in a way that doesn’t sound to him like “Now, here I come to convert you” but in a way that sounds more like an interest. The earlier tone would just scare him off. Thanks.

 

[drafdog]

You really have to stop these people before they start. Begin by asking if they eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood. They are forbidden to drink blood, therefore they must answer that they do not.
You then respond that the scripture says that unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life within you. They are therefore dead. Scripture further forbids necromancy (communication with the dead). Therefore you are forbidden to speak to them.
Bid them good day and close the door quietly.

Reb Levi

 

[adf417]

Introduction
I was messaged by a JW friend of mine on Facebook yesterday. He recommended I watch a TV programme about the Vatican that was on at the time. It was entitled “Benedict’s Via Dolorosa” and gave an overview of important points during his Pontificate. Among the ones mentioned were the IOR (“Vatican bank”), the abuse scandal and Vatileaks.

He asked me for my opinion on it, and so we talked. I stated that while my expectations were rather mixed before I watched it, the documentary turned out to be better (though not perfect) than expected. However, I took issue with certain statements made. One of them was the characterisation of the sexual abuse scandal as a “paedophilia crisis in the Church”. I made clear that paedophilia is an absolute exception among the horrible crimes committed, and that most cases were cases of homosexuality among the offenders. That’s what got us into talking about more Church stuff.

I was asked about my opinion on Pope Francis, to which I gladly made three observations I had: First, that I liked him and admired his humility and love for the poor. Second was that I had absolutely no concerns about him being a “liberal” or “reformer”, in the sense that he would institute women priests and abolish celibacy, since he is orthodox and protected by Infallibility. Thirdly, I observed his obviously different and more simple style than Benedict, but stated that one could not pit the two against each other since every Pope is different. Though I said I favoured Benedicts “style” of dress and liturgy, I made clear I had no problem with Francis’.

His comments
My Witness friend stated he admired Pope Francis’ “attitude towards all the gold and so forth”, seeing in that an “back to the roots” attitude. Concerning the IOR, he believed that Francis would not be able to repair the “broken system in the Vatican”, but would only be able to turn it into a giant PR image. Clean the façade, but shove all the rubbish inside, so to speak.

My question
Now, I have posted a thread in the Prayer Intentions forum asking for prayers for his conversion, and for me to find charitable and truthful words when approached or talking to him about the Faith. In conjunction with that, I am wondering whether any of you, maybe even ex-Witnesses, have ideas of questions I could ask him that could get us into talking about the Truth of the Catholic Faith.

As an example, I could think of historical questions. The founding of the Catholic Church by Christ for example. Or similarly, whether there have always been true Christians. Do you have any points I could talk to him about, questions I could ask to get him thinking? Preferably in a way that doesn’t sound to him like “Now, here I come to convert you” but in a way that sounds more like an interest. The earlier tone would just scare him off. Thanks.

HI Cutter,
I believe all discussions will eventually come down to authority, at least eventually. I think if this discussion is one you would rather not start with I would at least make sure he heard these words up front as to not be elusive in getting to this point at some time and showing you are open to other discussions.

The topics I think need be discussed with Witnesses are:

• Canon of scripture (the importance of this to a Witness is more in line of the intent of how scripture was translated in the early church and how if their translation (the NWT) is correct, it could have never been codified)
• Understanding of “Worship” Witnesses still use a pagan thought of worship in that they are all about form without intent. They profess that “only God knows true worship” but are quick to judge those who’s form is such of that of OT worshipers before OT worshipers understood monotheism as we understand it today.

Peace!!!

 

[MaryT777]

You really have to stop these people before they start. Begin by asking if they eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood. They are forbidden to drink blood, therefore they must answer that they do not.
You then respond that the scripture says that unless you eat his flesh and drink his blood you have no life within you. They are therefore dead. Scripture further forbids necromancy (communication with the dead). Therefore you are forbidden to speak to them.
Bid them good day and close the door quietly.

Reb Levi

Interesting apologetics approach
I think I’ll try it sometime; I might imagine that would stop things quick.

 

[Nita]

…My question
Now, I have posted a thread in the Prayer Intentions forum asking for prayers for his conversion, and for me to find charitable and truthful words when approached or talking to him about the Faith. In conjunction with that, I am wondering whether any of you, maybe even ex-Witnesses, have ideas of questions I could ask him that could get us into talking about the Truth of the Catholic Faith.

As an example, I could think of historical questions. The founding of the Catholic Church by Christ for example. Or similarly, whether there have always been true Christians. Do you have any points I could talk to him about, questions I could ask to get him thinking? Preferably in a way that doesn’t sound to him like “Now, here I come to convert you” but in a way that sounds more like an interest. The earlier tone would just scare him off. Thanks.

How familiar are you with his beliefs as a JW? IMO, it’s necessary to know what he believes if you are going to have any sort of fruitful conversation. For any who are unfamiliar with JW’s, here are a couple websites:
religionfacts.com/jehovahs_witnesses/beliefs.htm (very short one)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah’s_Witnesses_beliefs

It could well be that the best way to begin would be to ask him a question about one of his beliefs. If it’s one that differs from Catholic teaching, be sure to bone up on what our teaching is and where it is supported in the Bible.

Just an example: JW’s believe Jesus (before coming to earth) was the one referred to as St. Michael the Archangel in Scripture. You might ask him where they got that belief.
At some point you can politely introduce we don’t have that belief because our Scriptures show Him to be greater than the angels (first chapter of Hebrews) and one with God the Father. Be familiar with Bible passages to support our teaching. scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

ScriptureCatholic is a great site to get Bible passages that support our beliefs. Here is their home page. scripturecatholic.com/ You’ll see all the various categories on the left hand side.

P.S. I reread the first part of your post and realize none of your conversation with him went into doctrine or beliefs. It just dealt with personal behavior/s, etc. - sinful, unfortunately.

 

[CutlerB]

HI Cutter,
I believe all discussions will eventually come down to authority, at least eventually.

That would be helpful. I’m just not sure how to frame the argument of authority.

Understanding of “Worship” Witnesses still use a pagan thought of worship in that they are all about form without intent. They profess that “only God knows true worship” but are quick to judge those who’s form is such of that of OT worshipers before OT worshipers understood monotheism as we understand it today.

I’m not quite sure what you mean?

How familiar are you with his beliefs as a JW? IMO, it’s necessary to know what he believes if you are going to have any sort of fruitful conversation. For any who are unfamiliar with JW’s, here are a couple websites:
religionfacts.com/jehovahs_witnesses/beliefs.htm (very short one)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah’s_Witnesses_beliefs

It could well be that the best way to begin would be to ask him a question about one of his beliefs. If it’s one that differs from Catholic teaching, be sure to bone up on what our teaching is and where it is supported in the Bible.

Just an example: JW’s believe Jesus (before coming to earth) was the one referred to as St. Michael the Archangel in Scripture. You might ask him where they got that belief.
At some point you can politely introduce we don’t have that belief because our Scriptures show Him to be greater than the angels (first chapter of Hebrews) and one with God the Father. Be familiar with Bible passages to support our teaching. scripturecatholic.com/jesus_christ_divinity.html

ScriptureCatholic is a great site to get Bible passages that support our beliefs. Here is their home page. scripturecatholic.com/ You’ll see all the various categories on the left hand side.

P.S. I reread the first part of your post and realize none of your conversation with him went into doctrine or beliefs. It just dealt with personal behavior/s, etc. - sinful, unfortunately.

I am very familiar with their beliefs. We’ve talked often, I’ve read a lot. He doesn’t know though that I’ve been reading, that’s why I think asking questions about what they believe could work, rather than saying “I know you believe XY, now, why’s that, since YZ contradicts it”.

Concerning the PS: That’s true. We’ve had some exchanges on the Divinity of Christ and their Trinity brochure, though. I just thought that this recent chat opened the door to talking about religion again.

 

[adf417]

I’m not quite sure what you mean?

In ancient pagan religions, each city had its own gods and rituals and if you did not worship the gods in the forms that were prescribed you would get in trouble. You can read about how Socrates was executed for the crime of impiety, not heresy. His public worship was not in the correct form. They did not worry about what you actually believed only how you showed your practice of piety. JW’s look at those of us who kneel in front of a cross, pray to saints, or saluting a flag, as worshiping these subjects without understanding the true intent.

Closer to Christianity would be Judaism with the following of the law to the nth degree but again without necessarily the intent of the heart.

These forms, paganism and Judaism, combined with the NT Gospel is what makes Christianity unique without losing its Jewish roots.

I hope this helps!

 

[adf417]

Cutler just another note about JW’s and worship-

The Greek words for worship in the NT is “proskyneo” and “sebo”. Together they are used over 70 times in the KJV. In the NWT when referring to God these words are translated as “worship” 100% of the time. The same word, when referring to Jesus translate to “obeisance” (honor) 100% of the time. Even in the passages where there is a double action reference like Mt 2:11 …they saw the young child with Mary its mother, and, falling down, they did obeisance to it [him]NWT. No other translation I looked at, nine in all, had this much consistent bias.

So if JWs believe that bowing, prostrating or kneeling down to someone or something is worshiping that person/object, then all, or at least some, of the references to Jesus should have been translated as “worship”. If they believe all the people did not actually worship Jesus then why should they have a problem with me saluting the flag, kissing the cross, or bowing to the pope?

Just more food for thought!

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Dear CutlerB,
I have had a little experiance in dialoging with Witnesses, the first thing I have found is that one has to determin just exactly how informed/educated the particular witness is when it comes Religion, Orthodox Christianity, World religions, Ancient Eastern and Near Eastern Religions, Pagan Mythology, History of Christianity etc.
Witnesses that I have dialoged with are so intent on getting thier particular message across and so convinced that they have an almost divine protection against any error in thier views that when one for example innocently asks “Does your use of the protastant canon imply that you are sympathetic to the main views of the reformers”? One very quickly finds out that most Witnesses are unaware that any other cannon even exsists, and that for christians world wide the protastant canon is actually in the minority and has the shortest history.
Most witnesses for example are unaware that thier movement is actualy a result of the reformation and to non-protastants they are a fringe protatastant sect born of the so called restoration movement???
When a Witness thinks that they are on safe ground by pointing out that the Trinity doctrine is of pagan origen and came about due to the so called great apostacy and one innocently enough points out that regardless of wether or not that is true. What is true is that thier theology of an almighty God creating lessor god’s or a lessor god who then had the creative responsability of bringing about the orded cosmos is straight out Platonic theology and we can be certain that Plato was a Pagan. It’s all just blank looks???
When it comes to the Catholic Church on average thier ignorance is appalling, for example when one points out that one is Catholic and you ask the question " Are you aware of what Catholics beleive in"? After the rant on the unscriptual Trinity and one replies “Oh yes very interesting” What else? Just blank looks.

The big problem when trying to find commen ground to dialoge with a witness is that for nearly all of them any information that they may have for example on any of the above topics coms straight out of the pages of Watch Tower litrature which is Propaganda and not very much interested in historical fact. So that anybody who holds a divergent view to what is found in Watch Tower publications is “Not in the Truth” and is either conciesly or unconciesly under the control of the devil. This preconcieved view held by most Witnesses makes mature disscussion on just about any topic to do with Religion , The Bible or even World View extreamly limited!

And if you think any of that makes a Witnesses eyes spin. Next time your talking with your friend about the The Son’s relationship to the Father and he trot’s out all of the standerd versus to try and prove that the son is actually a created being, such as “The father is greater than I” etc. Point out to him that if he realy studies the New Testament in context along with the writtings of the contempory Church Fathers it can be clearly seen that Subordination Theology was one of the main points of view that the writters of the New Testament were combatting this can be seen for example in the first letter of John and in many of Paul’s letter such as Hebrews, Phillipians, Collosians,& Galations. And when one say’s to a Witnesses that it is very understandable how they could arrive at the erroniouse view that the son is indeed a creature however by the time the New Testament writtings were completed somwhere about 100AD it is clear that the New Testament writters had come to the view that the Son may be seen as subordinate to the Father for example in Office or Mission but is not subordinate to the Father in Time, Eternity or Nature (Divinity) and that this view is clearly the view in the New Testament writtings. And that that is why it is the view that has come down to us, because it is the view that the New Testament and there for the Apostels taught.

CutlerB,
My sister in law and her husband are Witnesses and all I can say is Good Luck, they are heavy going and hard work.

 

[mab23]

great discussion here

one thing I have thought of doing and I don’t know how effective it would be is to go on the offensive for once

ask questions like

what do you think about the origin of the Witness

and that Charles Taze Russel was also an agnostic and seems to have followed an off shoot of seventh day adventism with predictions of the end of the world and what not

also that the founder was sued for selling wheat above cost stating it was a special strain

and the whole defrauding his wife and accused implicitly of adultery

or that their religion has not even been around 200 years?

doctrinal flip flops and so on

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

great discussion here

one thing I have thought of doing and I don’t know how effective it would be is to go on the offensive for once

ask questions like

what do you think about the origin of the Witness

and that Charles Taze Russel was also an agnostic and seems to have followed an off shoot of seventh day adventism with predictions of the end of the world and what not

also that the founder was sued for selling wheat above cost stating it was a special strain

and the whole defrauding his wife and accused implicitly of adultery

or that their religion has not even been around 200 years?

doctrinal flip flops and so on

One thing I know about dialoging with the Witnesses is that if one even shows a pedestrian knowladge of the subject matter they will turn on thier heals and make a speedy exit, contrary to what they say “We are spreading the truth of Gods Word” they are actually looking for converts and just like sales people they are trying to fill quoters and improve thier standing within thier congregation.
This is one of the most frustrating thing about the witnesses. They come to your door, ask you personale questions about your faith or world view etc and as soon as you engage them in any meaningfull way on that same level "poof’ thier gone.
They are actually trained to do this, they are looking for easy targets, the vunerable and naive.
I do beleive that an offensive approach is best, however approach them on areas that seem non-threataning but can easily be manouverd into doctrinal disscussions that contradict watchtower doctrine.

 

[CutlerB]

One thing I know about dialoging with the Witnesses is that if one even shows a pedestrian knowladge of the subject matter they will turn on thier heals and make a speedy exit, contrary to what they say “We are spreading the truth of Gods Word” they are actually looking for converts and just like sales people they are trying to fill quoters and improve thier standing within thier congregation.
This is one of the most frustrating thing about the witnesses. They come to your door, ask you personale questions about your faith or world view etc and as soon as you engage them in any meaningfull way on that same level "poof’ thier gone.
They are actually trained to do this, they are looking for easy targets, the vunerable and naive.
I do beleive that an offensive approach is best, however approach them on areas that seem non-threataning but can easily be manouverd into doctrinal disscussions that contradict watchtower doctrine.

I agree. One reads a lot that staying in the role of a student, asking questions etc., works best. Otherwise they feel they’re being taught, which they don’t like of course, since they have the “truth” and are supposed to teach others.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

A classic is the “Christmass is of Pagan Origen”!
The amount of times I’ve heard this, Witnesses trot this one out all of the time with all sorts of vatiations, from Christmass trees being Pagan Totem poles or even phalic symbols and on and on it goes. I think because Christmass has largely lost it’s meaning in the western world and it is a time of hightened emotions they see it as a good time to prostylise.
I dont know if this is exactly true? But the last time a JW came to my door and gave me the “25th of December is actualy a pagan festival worshiping the Sun etc adopted by the Catholic Church to enslave millions into worshiping the Devil” speach. I nodded my head and said yes very interesting and agreed(very important) and then went into a harmless talk about festivals and celebrations from all over the world and asked them about what celebrations they do encourage like the memorial meal and then steerd the conversation toward Old Testament Jewish festivals, and finnaly talked about the Jewish festival of Hunikah and that it is the festival of light or lights and talked about how it came about etc, and went on to talk about how many of the early Christians were Jewish and followed the Jewish festvals and that these festivals had no relevence to gentile Christians and that the Gentiles adopted thier own meanings onto the festivals. Foe example instead of celebrating the miracules event of God keeping the Monorah Lit while cleansing the Temple for worship where Hunikah comes from, the Gentils instead celebrated the birth of Christ during this festival The true light that came into the world to enlighten every man. and that Hunikah falls on December 25th or thier abouts in the Jewish Lunar calander, and that Christmass is not of Pagan Origen but comes from the Christian mother faith Judaism along with a lot of other Catholic liturgy and celebrations and traditions.
I then read them that part from I think it is Jerimiah were God says that there will always be a priest to worship me and always be a man on Davids throne and point out that this has been fullfilled in the Catholic Church.

They then run like they have come face to face with the devil. However I can see them thinking.

 

[adf417]

One thing I know about dialoging with the Witnesses is that if one even shows a pedestrian knowladge of the subject matter they will turn on thier heals and make a speedy exit, contrary to what they say “We are spreading the truth of Gods Word” they are actually looking for converts and just like sales people they are trying to fill quoters and improve thier standing within thier congregation.
This is one of the most frustrating thing about the witnesses. They come to your door, ask you personale questions about your faith or world view etc and as soon as you engage them in any meaningfull way on that same level "poof’ thier gone.
They are actually trained to do this, they are looking for easy targets, the vunerable and naive.
I do beleive that an offensive approach is best, however approach them on areas that seem non-threataning but can easily be manouverd into doctrinal disscussions that contradict watchtower doctrine.

I agree! Most of my family members are JW and we can no longer have any meaningful conversation. Once I became more informed in the truth of the Catholic Church “poof” all sincerity was gone and now even social conversation is a struggle. It is like it is apostasy just for them to sincerely ask about my religion as they know the truth about it from the Watchtower and as you say, anything contrary to this teaching is evil.

The funny thing is though, when you ask them if learning about the JW organization from an outside source or from an ex-JW is effective, the answer is an emphatic NO! I use this approach every time they bring up a common misunderstanding of Catholic teaching which always comes from the Watchtower and or an ex-Catholic. But I digress…

Peace!!!

 

[CutlerB]

I dont know if this is exactly true? But the last time a JW came to my door and gave me the “25th of December is actualy a pagan festival worshiping the Sun etc adopted by the Catholic Church to enslave millions into worshiping the Devil” speech.

It’s not true. In fact, one can make a good case that Christmas was celebrated before that feast came about in the Roman Empire. In addition, one could argue that Christ, as the True Light, conquered the pagan festival by having Christmas there, even if the Romans had been first to celebrate something there. Thirdly, one can also make a separate case about the date of 25 December based on the feast of the Annunciation being on 25 March. If you search the Internet, you’'ll find some good Catholic articles.

I then read them that part from I think it is Jerimiah were God says that there will always be a priest to worship me and always be a man on Davids throne and point out that this has been fullfilled in the Catholic Church.

They then run like they have come face to face with the devil. However I can see them thinking.

Can you give me the references for that? This sounds really interesting.

The funny thing is though, when you ask them if learning about the JW organization from an outside source or from an ex-JW is effective, the answer is an emphatic NO! I use this approach every time they bring up a common misunderstanding of Catholic teaching which always comes from the Watchtower and or an ex-Catholic. But I digress…

Peace!!!

Good point, I’ll remember that.

 

[WitnessSpouse]

His comments
My Witness friend stated he admired Pope Francis’ “attitude towards all the gold and so forth”, seeing in that an “back to the roots” attitude. Concerning the IOR, he believed that Francis would not be able to repair the “broken system in the Vatican”, but would only be able to turn it into a giant PR image. Clean the façade, but shove all the rubbish inside, so to speak

CutlerB,

I applaud you for wanting to engage your friend and to lead him into the “fullness of Truth” which is found in the Catholic Church. Remember that your actions are your best testimony to the Faith. If you comment with the intention of “chasing him off” then that is absolutely what will happen. (What was interesting to me was that your friends comments had the air of “political commentary.” Witnesses do not involve themselves in politics, voting, etc.)

With regard to the scandals, whether sexual or financial, the Church does teach that Lust and Greed are deadly sins. He is right to state that Christians, much less Catholic Priests, should engage in such behavior. The RCC, like every other church, is made up of sinners. Prayerfully, many offenders will turn from the temptations that they face. The history of the WTBTS has its own issues with nomadic sex offenders and an organizational effort to conceal their activity. (If there is not a witness to verify an offense, then it did not happen.)

While it is true that the Catholic Church has a number of possessions that would have significant value to certain people, much of that value comes from its importance to history and the teachings of the Church. These “riches” would not feed the poor for long. Can he honestly look across the world and miss the time, effort, and money that Catholics put into clothing the naked, feeding the poor, healing the sick, caring for widows and orphans, AND spreading the Gospel of Jesus Christ as commanded? (Catholic Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Orphanages, and Nursing homes are but a manifestation of the Charitable heart of the Church)

The WTBTS has been reluctant to publish financial reports. The whole of its ministry is to go door to door and distribute literature. When is their clothing of the poor, feeding of the hungry, caring for the sick, caring for widows and orphans, the Witnesses stop at their own door. They only provide these things for those that are “in the Truth.”

My prayers are with you, and your friend!

Ubi Caritas, Deus Ibi Est!

Pax

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

It’s not true. In fact, one can make a good case that Christmas was celebrated before that feast came about in the Roman Empire. In addition, one could argue that Christ, as the True Light, conquered the pagan festival by having Christmas there, even if the Romans had been first to celebrate something there. Thirdly, one can also make a separate case about the date of 25 December based on the feast of the Annunciation being on 25 March. If you search the Internet, you’'ll find some good Catholic articles.

Yes this is all true CutlerB,however all of the information comparing the Christmasss celebration with the Invictos sol celebration of the Roman Empire mainly come from anti catholic sources. Perfectly good arguments can be made from Jewish liturgical celebrations such as Hunikah-Christmass (Advent) and Passover-Easter for Christian celebrations as the early church which was exclusivly Jewish welcomed gentiles into the church for which these exclusivly Jewish celebrations had no real meaning.
In Fact if you read Alexander Hisslops The Two Babylons published in 1884 which was the source book for the restorationest’s anti Catholic retoric he makes the argument that every thing the church does in it’s liturgical worship comes from Pagan sources. However on closer examination it can be seen that nearly everything that is exclusivly Catholic such as Rosmary Beads etc originated from Jewish liturgical practices. As they should because just as Christ was the fullfillment of the Jewish Law, Writtings and Prophets the Catholic Church is the fullfillment of the Jewish religion.

Also this reference from Jeremiah stresses my point, for example Hisslop makes the point that the Catholic Priest Hood is of Pagan origen and goese back to magical religion’s with incantations etc, it would seem that he is oblviouse to the fact that the Jewish priesthood was initiated by God. Interestingly those prtostent denominations that beleive that when the old law passed away with Christ so did the priesthood lap up his uninformed ravings.

Jer33:16-22

16 In those days shall Juda be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell securely: and this is the name that they shall call him, The Lord our just one.

17 For thus saith the Lord: There shall not be cut off from David a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel.

18 Neither shall there be cut off from the priests and Levites a man before my face, to offer holocausts, and to burn sacrifice, and to kill victims continually:

19 And the word of the Lord came to Jeremias, saying:

20 Thus saith the Lord: If my covenant with the day can be made void, and my covenant with the night, that there should not be day and night in their season:

21 My covenant also with David, my servant, may be made void, that he should not have a son to reign upon his throne, and with the Levites and priests, my ministers.

22 As the stars of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea be measured: so will I multiply the seed of David, my servant, and the Levites, my ministers.

The above is a clear refrence to the Massianich age and guess what, there will be Priests offering Sacrafice, and there will be a man sitting on Davids throne, sounds a bit like the Catholic church doesn’t it.

Interestingly if you have a copy of the JW publishers handbook Reasoning From The Scriptures this is the one that they carry with them as they go from door to door and it is complete with conversation starters and how to counter arguments from other faiths etc
you will see under the Priesthood heading that they absolutly denie the Catholic preisthood and see it as evil and non biblical etc they make the argument that all beleivers are priestly people and that our prayers are the sacrafice. This just does’nt stack up however that’s JW’s for you.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

I agree! Most of my family members are JW and we can no longer have any meaningful conversation. Once I became more informed in the truth of the Catholic Church “poof” all sincerity was gone and now even social conversation is a struggle. It is like it is apostasy just for them to sincerely ask about my religion as they know the truth about it from the Watchtower and as you say, anything contrary to this teaching is evil.

The funny thing is though, when you ask them if learning about the JW organization from an outside source or from an ex-JW is effective, the answer is an emphatic NO! I use this approach every time they bring up a common misunderstanding of Catholic teaching which always comes from the Watchtower and or an ex-Catholic. But I digress…

Peace!!!

adf417, Is’nt this the most frustrating thing, my inlaws were all over me like a rash when I first met them, obviosly thinking that if they could convert me then they may finaly be able to convert my wife. after a period of time when they found out I was Catholic they actually assumed that I was non practacing and being Catholic would no nothing about the Bible, and increased thier efforts. At first I just went along with things and tried not to rock the boat, I inquired about what they beleived and talked to them about the bible etc, in my mind I was just being polite and showing an interest in my future wifes family,(getting to know them) I even attended the odd meeting at the Kingdom Hall when we visited them or they visited us and disscussed what to me was just an endless lecture about phantasmagorical adventest speculation toped off with a good dose of DEATH TO THE NON BELEIVERS but as time went on and they relised that I was actually well informed about the Catholic faith and had been schooled in Catholic education and new my bible particularly the gospels and new testament very well and that I practiced my religion to best of my abillaty well did things change, they did everything to split myself and my wife up, to them I had become the devil incarnate. Now as you say even small talk is strained and difficult.

 

[adf417]

adf417, Is’nt this the most frustrating thing, my inlaws were all over me like a rash when I first met them, obviosly thinking that if they could convert me then they may finaly be able to convert my wife. after a period of time when they found out I was Catholic they actually assumed that I was non practacing and being Catholic would no nothing about the Bible, and increased thier efforts. At first I just went along with things and tried not to rock the boat, I inquired about what they beleived and talked to them about the bible etc, in my mind I was just being polite and showing an interest in my future wifes family,(getting to know them) I even attended the odd meeting at the Kingdom Hall when we visited them or they visited us and disscussed what to me was just an endless lecture about phantasmagorical adventest speculation toped off with a good dose of DEATH TO THE NON BELEIVERS but as time went on and they relised that I was actually well informed about the Catholic faith and had been schooled in Catholic education and new my bible particularly the gospels and new testament very well and that I practiced my religion to best of my abillaty well did things change, they did everything to split myself and my wife up, to them I had become the devil incarnate. Now as you say even small talk is strained and difficult.

Absolutely frustrating it is!!! It has divided my family beyond belief and the irony is - “its my fault”.

I no longer socialize with my family because of a back stabbing event one day when I learned that my sister, while babysitting for us in a time of struggles and needing family to help out, was trying to convert my then 8 year old. Not to mention all the propaganda and hyperbole that runs rampant. Absolutely frustrating!!!

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Absolutely frustrating it is!!! It has divided my family beyond belief and the irony is - “its my fault”.

I no longer socialize with my family because of a back stabbing event one day when I learned that my sister, while babysitting for us in a time of struggles and needing family to help out, was trying to convert my then 8 year old. Not to mention all the propaganda and hyperbole that runs rampant. Absolutely frustrating!!!

adf417, You have my sympathies, I have tried and tried and tried, at times it is absolutly heart breaking, and being my wifes family not my own I try to keep relationship going for my wifes sake, however I hvae had to draw the line when it came to the conversion of innocents i.e our child.
All I can say is keep trying, keep praying, keep learning and keep reminding them that your love for them is unconditional.