Talking to Ex-Catholics

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Vincent1560:
If you can explain to me why the Catholic Church felt it had to ADD RESTRICTIONS to what God through Paul set down I would be very interested in hearing it. If it is really better to have a celibate clergy than Paul made a mistake in his epistles which would make them fallible. I don’t really see a way around this. It would be the equivalent in my mind of The Catholic Church deciding “you know what, you really should get circumcised in order to be a member of the kingdom.” I also think that the current priest shortage is evidence that this legalism is hurting Catholism.
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This is YOUR all-too-fallible interpretation of the celibacy issue, and appears to be colored by some prejudice on your part against things Catholic. I note with some dismay that you choose to assert that the Catholic Church added this, when in fact it is a discipline of the church…and praised by Our Lord Himself in Matthew 19:10-12…as well as St. Paul.

The more valid question might be: Why aren’t there more celibate clergy among non-Catholic Christians?
 
This is YOUR all-too-fallible interpretation of the celibacy issue, and appears to be colored by some prejudice on your part against things Catholic.

I am not predjudiced against Catholics. I consider them fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. As such I would be wrong to stay silent when I see them doing, practicing or requiring things that I believe will hinder their strength in Christ. I think the priest shortage is very sad and it frustrates me that there are good, moral scripturally educated Catholics who would make great priests but aren’t allowed to because of legalism.
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I note with some dismay that you choose to assert that the Catholic Church added this, when in fact it is a discipline of the church…and praised by Our Lord Himself in Matthew 19:10-12…as well as St. Paul.**

I acknowledged celibacy as a blessing and spiritual gift. I argued that requiring church leaders to be celibate was a Catholic addition. Please read my posts carefully before making assumptions about what I asserted.
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The more valid question might be Why aren’t there more celibate clergy among non-Catholic Christians?**

Easy, because Christ didn’t require it, Paul as inspired by God didn’t require it, and infact assumed the opposite to be the norm. Thus non-Catholics believe that they should let scripture be their guide in determining their leaders and scripture as enumerated in 1 Timothy chapter 3 makes clear that non-celibate Christians are elibible for the ministry.
 
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Mickey:
Poppycock! Celibate clergy in the Roman Catholic Church is simply a discipline–it’s a gift, remember? Eastern Catholic and Orthodox clergy are permitted to be married (if they are wed before ordination).
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This doesn’t address my argument. Regardless of how it is instituted the affect remains the same, priests cannot marry.
 
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Vincent1560:
This doesn’t address my argument. Regardless of how it is instituted the affect remains the same, priests cannot marry in the Western Church.
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Why is that a problem, Vincent?

You say that clerical celibacy is a “Catholic addition.” Since our Lord himself counsels it (Mt. 19:12) and Paul affirms its value (I Cor 7), and since it is a great and powerful gift of the Holy Spirit for the good of those who can embrace it, for the building up of the faith, and for the life of the Church, it can hardly be called an “addition.”

Celibate presbyters existed side-by-side with married clergy from the beginning. That the Latin Church has upheld clerical celibacy in generosity and fidelity to Our Lord’s counsel should be considered admirable.

Nobody is REQUIRED to be a priest; so nobody is forced to be celibate.

Vincent, m’luv, your quarrel is not with the Catholic Church on this. Your quarrel is with Jesus Christ.
 
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Vincent1560:
This doesn’t address my argument. Regardless of how it is instituted the affect remains the same, priests cannot marry.
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That’s right, priests cannot marry, but in the Eastern Rite married men can be ordained. Also, even in the Western Rite, married ministers who convert, can receive permission to be ordained.

I will say that celebacy is NOT the reason for a priest shortage.

Kotton
 
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Vincent1560:
This doesn’t address my argument. Regardless of how it is instituted the affect remains the same, priests cannot marry.
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I’m Catholic, and our priests can be married. Roman Catholic priests may not (for the most part). What a wonderful gift to follow in the footsteps of St Paul and Jesus Christ. So just what is your argument Vincent? I don’t see an argument. However, I do see some subtle Roman Catholic prejudice. 😦
 
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Vincent1560:
I am not predjudiced against Catholics. I consider them fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. As such I would be wrong to stay silent when I see them doing, practicing or requiring things that I believe will hinder their strength in Christ. I think the priest shortage is very sad and it frustrates me that there are good, moral scripturally educated Catholics who would make great priests but aren’t allowed to because of legalism
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.

I acknowledged celibacy as a blessing and spiritual gift. I argued that requiring church leaders to be celibate was a Catholic addition. Please read my posts carefully before making assumptions about what I asserted.
**
The more valid question might be Why aren’t there more celibate clergy among non-Catholic Christians?**

Easy, because Christ didn’t require it, Paul as inspired by God didn’t require it, and infact assumed the opposite to be the norm. Thus non-Catholics believe that they should let scripture be their guide in determining their leaders and scripture as enumerated in 1 Timothy chapter 3 makes clear that non-celibate Christians are elibible for the ministry.You display a selective bias in your interpretation, since the passages that I cited plainly show the high estate that Christ Himself held celibacy for the sake of the kingdom of God.

No one is saying that Christ “required it”, but this is a matter of following obediently what Our Lord plainly stated, that those who could accept His word should and that is the best way. “assumed the opposite to be the norm.” is only a non-Catholic assumption in spite of clear New Testament passages to the contrary. Christ Himself was celibate…so was Paul…both make it plain that this is the best and highest expression of committment to God.

Trying to assert that we are wrong & legalistic to have a celibate priesthood is scripturally unsound to say the least.

Thanks for your alleged concern. I may be one of those people who might make one of those priests that you speak of, but I also know that I have no calling to the priesthood…one way that I know that is that I have no calling to celibacy…never have. I do not feel like a 2nd class Catholic or less holy or spiritual than the 2 great priests that minister to me in my parish. I simply recognize that we all have our respective callings from God and that mine is to be the best Catholic husband & father & witness that I can be by the grace of God.

Far from “hindering our strength for Christ”, I see this as a tremendous source of grace and strength and blessings from Our Lord, the result of these holy men hearing and answering a calling from Him to literally “be all they can be”.
(2nd Timothy 2:3 Labour as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No man, being a soldier to God, entangleth himself with secular businesses; that he may please him to whom he hath engaged himself. ) (Emphasis mine)

I did read your posts carefully…and I stand behind my statements. This is nothing but YOUR opinion…not well supported by the New Testament.
Pax vobiscum,
 
Church Militant:
You display a selective bias in your interpretation, since the passages that I cited plainly show the high estate that Christ Himself held celibacy for the sake of the kingdom of God.

No one is saying that Christ “required it”, but this is a matter of following obediently what Our Lord plainly stated, that those who could accept His word should and that is the best way. “assumed the opposite to be the norm.” is only a non-Catholic assumption in spite of clear New Testament passages to the contrary. Christ Himself was celibate…so was Paul…both make it plain that this is the best and highest expression of committment to God.

Trying to assert that we are wrong & legalistic to have a celibate priesthood is scripturally unsound to say the least.

Thanks for your alleged concern. I may be one of those people who might make one of those priests that you speak of, but I also know that I have no calling to the priesthood…one way that I know that is that I have no calling to celibacy…never have. I do not feel like a 2nd class Catholic or less holy or spiritual than the 2 great priests that minister to me in my parish. I simply recognize that we all have our respective callings from God and that mine is to be the best Catholic husband & father & witness that I can be by the grace of God.

Far from “hindering our strength for Christ”, I see this as a tremendous source of grace and strength and blessings from Our Lord, the result of these holy men hearing and answering a calling from Him to literally “be all they can be”.
(2nd Timothy 2:3 Labour as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. 4 No man, being a soldier to God, entangleth himself with secular businesses; that he may please him to whom he hath engaged himself. ) (Emphasis mine)

I did read your posts carefully…and I stand behind my statements. This is nothing but YOUR opinion…not well supported by the New Testament.
Pax vobiscum,
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I have presented my case and it is obvious you disagree. I can respect that even though I disagree with you. I believe you come from sincere intentions. But unless you have further arguments I am afraid we shall both have to remain unconvinced.

God Bless,
 
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Vincent1560:
… however the chapter clearly shows that he understands celibacy to be a GIFT that not everyone has.
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Agreed, but you’re missing the point - Paul points out that this GIFT makes someone more concerned with the affairs of God, as he is not distracted by the concerns of a family man. This is a GOOD THING for a priest. It is not necessary, but it is beneficial. That’s the point, and it’s a very important point…

An education is also beneficial for a priest. Catholics (generally) require that priests be well educated (and protestants usually require seminary education for their ministers as well, though I don’t believe Paul mentions seminary at all).

The Church COULD Ordain any man she pleased. But She CHOOSES to Ordain those who She believes are best qualified for the job. This is not an injustice - nobody is entitled to Ordination, so nobody has the right to complain if they are not accepted for Ordination. The Church is free to define whatever “job requirements” She deems appropriate. In light of Paul’s comments, the gift of celebacy is one of those “job requirements” that seem appropriate (as well as education and a number of other factors).
 
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Vincent1560:
If you can explain to me why the Catholic Church felt it had to ADD RESTRICTIONS to what God through Paul set down I would be very interested in hearing it. If it is really better to have a celibate clergy than Paul made a mistake in his epistles which would make them fallible. I don’t really see a way around this. It would be the equivalent in my mind of The Catholic Church deciding “you know what, you really should get circumcised in order to be a member of the kingdom.” I also think that the current priest shortage is evidence that this legalism is hurting Catholism.
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Well Vincent, wasn’t it Paul who said that celibacy was best? Nobody is made to stay celibate. Nobody is ordered to become a priest. We, as Catholics, look at verses in the Bible in the light of Matthew 16:19. Actually, we look to Peter (the Pope) to show us what things are loosed and what things are bound.

I suggested you read the CA site to find your answers but it doesn’t look as if you took that advice. I once again point you in that direction.

catholic.com/library/celibacy_and_the_priesthood.asp
 
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