Talking to non-catholics about homosexuality

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Some of you might have seen other posts of mine wherein I told my story about converting to Catholisism and embracing the Church’s teaching re: SSA and acting thereon. I’m very clear about my own decision, but I would be very interested in seeing a dialogue on how you might talk to non-catholics about these issues.

For instance, say I am approached by someone who is not Catholic and is gay. Let’s say that they belong to a protestant denomination that embraces gay marriages. He or she wants to know if I’m saying that they are going to Hell or that I believe they should also be chaste. Obviously it’s not for me to judge someone or their afterlife destination 🙂 but that’s hardly going to be a satisfactory discussion strategy.

What is the Catholic response to non-Catholic gay people on these issues?
 
One response might be: “I guess you know what we say about gays, but if it helps I’ll pray for you.”
 
michelleds said:
Obviously it’s not for me to judge someone or their afterlife destination 🙂 but that’s hardly going to be a satisfactory discussion strategy.
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Why not? Honestly, I think it’s a fantastic discussion strategy- it’s good to show people that being Catholic doesn’t turn a person judgmental- I would say just as you said above, and also point the person toward authentic Catholic resources on the subject. If they are truly interested, they will learn something. If they are just starting a fight, then they will learn that you are not interested in argument for its own sake.
 
Excellent question.

Catholics, evangelicals etc are vilified as rabid bigots because of this subject and as this is an emotional issue it makes it very hard to get your point across without being hauled over the coals/mocked/scorned or dismissed from office for holding views at variance with some kind of ill thought out discrimination policy.

I try and point enquirers to the Catechism of the Catholic and say that we are called to heroic moral virtue. Otherwise I’ll be a coward and sit in silence and then fret about being some kind of Pilate figure. My colleague keeps telling me about her sister in law’s ‘wedding’. It transpires she ‘married’ a woman. I am trying to find a way of showing my disapproval whilst being charitable and friendly.

Life is hard.
 
michelleds said:
Obviously it’s not for me to judge someone or their afterlife destination 🙂 but that’s hardly going to be a satisfactory discussion strategy.
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Oh, I disagree very much. I think it is important to make clear that the Catholic Church does not condemn people to Purgatory or Hell. Its not our decision, nor as human beings do we have all the knowledge that God has about that individual. Only God can pass such judgment. Its beyond our ability.

I think it is important to dispel any caricatures of the Catholic faith that your friend may have. Granted, many Protestants feel no compunction about saying whether someone is going to hell. But Catholics are more humble than that. :o

Of course, you can ask if he understands Church teaching on homosexuality. Does he understand that homosexuals are not considered blame-worthy, but that homosexual activity is? Chasity, in Church teaching, requires abstinence from homosexual activity, but individuals are not at fault for feeling homosexual urges. If anything, the heavy burden of refraining from a continual sexual urge is likely rewarded at the time of judgment.

Does he understand that the Catholic Church, unlike some Protestants, does not require or encourage psychological counseling in an attempt to become heterosexual? What kind of questions does he have about the Church or its teachings?

I’d see his question as opportunity to educate
 
This situation hasn’t presented itself yet, but I anticipate that it will. eventually.

I guess what i’m really asking is no different that the myriad other differences between the Catholic Church teachings and the liberal Protestant teachings. as I thought about this question this afternoon, I realized taht I was making it too complicated. It’s not my responsibility to make someone feel okay with their decisions, it’s my responsibility to live my life as God wants and to be prepared to offer reasons for my hope, gently.
 
It might also be a useful gambit to point out that the Church takes the same approach to all sins…that if we are weak and fall to temptation by the Enemy then genuine repentance and Confession will be available to the sinner to sacramentally cleanse them.

It is also useful to remember that we are called to exercise proper sexual chastity in whichever state we find ourselves and that includes non-married heterosexuals as well as homosexuals. The burden of dealing with continence and celibacy in the non-married state is just as great I think for either group.

It should be borne in mind that the Church condemns homosexual acts not homosexuals nor homosexual urges (which are to be fought as are all temptations to sin) in the same terms it condemns masturbation as a sin. This might help to show that it is possible to take homosexuality far too seriously as a sin compared with other sins.
 
Maybe I’m not being clear about my actual question.

Let’s say that Abby and Becky have been co-workers for a couple of years. They have both known that the other one is gay for most or all of that time. Abby starts going to church, “gets religion”, converts and now identifies as ex-gay or former gay or celibate gay, whatever. Becky, who goes to the liberal Methodist church or maybe the Reform Jewish Synagogue, where she was “married” to her partner, does not understand why Abby is now not gay, or how Abby’s understanding of God could require this.

Becky will likely ask questions such as “are you saying my church is wrong?” “are you saying that I’m going to hell?” "are you saying that love is a sin?’

Now, obviously Abby understands the Catholic Church’s teaching and God’s requirements of her and is comfortable talking about this in the abstract or about herself. But when Becky wants to know what Abby thinks about her personally, what is the right answer?

If Abby says, “Yes, your church is wrong, I don’t know if you’re going to hell, only God knows that, and no, love isn’t a sin but acting on sexual impulses outside of the bonds of hetersexual marriage is a sin”, that will all be correct and factual. HOWEVER, it is not likely to let Becky see Jesus through Abby.
 
This is a really tough question for any of us non-gays to answer. Of course we should never say anyone is condemned because no one really knows. We can only hope and pray that all are forgiven and acceptable to God.

I have a niece who is gay and I find it very difficult to approach the subject of sexuallity in any context. BUT if she/they were to ask my views on same sex relationships I would have to answer with regards to my faith as a Catholic. I treat her and her partner as I would any of my other nieces or nephews. I don’t volunteer my perspectives on sexuality to any of my other relatives and I don’t do so with them. It’s not a normal topic of discussion at family get togethers.

The real tough question is what to do, IF they should decide to have a same sex marriage ceremony. As a Catholic I think I would have to decline their invitation or at least seek the advice of a priest on how to handle this.
 
wcknight said:
This is a really tough question for any of us non-gays to answer. Of course we should never say anyone is condemned because no one really knows. We can only hope and pray that all are forgiven and acceptable to God.
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Actually we do know. One merely need quote St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians, because he says at 6:9-11, quite bluntly -
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
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Furthermore at 5:9 St. Paul says to not associate with moral people.
I have a niece who is gay and I find it very difficult to approach the subject of sexuallity in any context. BUT if she/they were to ask my views on same sex relationships I would have to answer with regards to my faith as a Catholic. I treat her and her partner as I would any of my other nieces or nephews. I don’t volunteer my perspectives on sexuality to any of my other relatives and I don’t do so with them. It’s not a normal topic of discussion at family get togethers.

The real tough question is what to do, IF they should decide to have a same sex marriage ceremony. As a Catholic I think I would have to decline their invitation or at least seek the advice of a priest on how to handle this.
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Answering your niece with regard to your Catholic beliefs is the right thing to do as a Catholic. In terms of the OP asking about someone from another denomination which accepts homosexuality, the obvious answer is that such a denomination has embraced moral relativity, which can excuse anything. If something is immoral as decribed in the Catechism and quoted in the Bible, then it is immoral and is a moral absolute.
 
Today on Bott Radio, a protestant denominational speaker was talking about the various causes for lesbianism. Interesting information.

I’m quite sure that most homosexual advocacy groups would have branded her talk 'psuedo science, gay bashing, homophobic, and hating."
 
It’s easy to give a stock quote from scriptures (that’s what a lot of our Bible quoting friends always do) but no one knows whether folks in this situation are repentent at the very end. Whether they are condemned is anyones guess. You could say based on their lifes choices, they are, but who knows IF maybe they reformed at the last instant, or IF God lets them in anyway.

That is only between them and God. AS Catholics we should know what the Church teaches and follow it. That is a choice I make and you make, because we have chosen to follow our beliefs.

No one can definitively say any particular soul is in Hell because no matter how heinous the crime or crimes, they may have been forgiven at the last instant. St Catherine once said that a soul was saved in the last instant between falling off a horse and landing on the ground. Whether we ask for forgiveness or have the opportunity to be forgiven in the last moment is a risk some folks take.

The Church has declared many saints, but as far as I know, no one has been officially declared in Hell.
 
michelleds said:
Maybe I’m not being clear about my actual question.

Let’s say that Abby and Becky have been co-workers for a couple of years. They have both known that the other one is gay for most or all of that time. Abby starts going to church, “gets religion”, converts and now identifies as ex-gay or former gay or celibate gay, whatever. Becky, who goes to the liberal Methodist church or maybe the Reform Jewish Synagogue, where she was “married” to her partner, does not understand why Abby is now not gay, or how Abby’s understanding of God could require this.

Becky will likely ask questions such as “are you saying my church is wrong?” “are you saying that I’m going to hell?” "are you saying that love is a sin?’

Now, obviously Abby understands the Catholic Church’s teaching and God’s requirements of her and is comfortable talking about this in the abstract or about herself. But when Becky wants to know what Abby thinks about her personally, what is the right answer?

If Abby says, “Yes, your church is wrong, I don’t know if you’re going to hell, only God knows that, and no, love isn’t a sin but acting on sexual impulses outside of the bonds of hetersexual marriage is a sin”, that will all be correct and factual. HOWEVER, it is not likely to let Becky see Jesus through Abby.
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Very good question and a scene that playes out more than people realize. If I may I would if I could dare speak for Abby tell Beck that I am still her friend, and hope to always be. that said I have found that What the catholic church teaches to be both historiclly true about itself, that it is the chruch founded by Christ, that its teaching are the same as they have been for nearly 2000 years and are still true as they were then. And because of that I have had to correct my way of life to conform to that. Is your church wrong? form everything I have read in been taught , on this issue, yes. Are you going to Hell? neither I nor the catholic church will ever say that you perosnnally or any one for that matter “is” going, or is in hell. NO love is not ever a sin, but the incorrect expression of that love can be sinful.

Becky would not like those answrs and end her friendship with Abby, however that as I see it the best that Abby could do.
 
John 21652 is right. Sometimes we need to just state the truth. As an Aussie he is probably quite straight forward and finds it easier than me, a pom.
P.s. John - did you see us pummel Sri Lanka in the 1st test ? 😃
 
John_of_Woking said:
John 21652 is right. Sometimes we need to just state the truth. As an Aussie he is probably quite straight forward and finds it easier than me, a pom.
P.s. John - did you see us pummel Sri Lanka in the 1st test ? 😃
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Watch the…the…the…that game? Hardly.

Mate, we are a nation still in mourning!! 😊
 
They had an “ex-lesbian” and ex-radical feminist-turned Catholic commentator on some weeks ago on Life On The Rock----I forget her name. She is now an Orthodox Catholic who is now happily married and has six children.
They asked her a question about just this same subject and she straight out said “Do NOT roll out the “Natural Law” defense----it is not going to work.” What she suggested was accepting the person “at their level” and slowly show them the truth of the Church’s teachings by one living them and proclaiming them.

That, at least, is roughly of what I remember of her response. If anybody watched the show and heard something different, feel free to correct me. :)👍
 
For a protestant 1Corinth 6:9-11 would be enough. For a jew, leviticus would be enough. If their institutions do not believe in the bible, then based on what do their believe is laid on?

A single good opportunity to give them the verses in a good way would be enough. God will work from there. The next time Abby start a converstion about it then you just 🤷 You shall give positive response everytime there is a new question. However if she keep coming back to the same point, then 🤷 To answer whether “my church is wrong ?” is a single “yes”.

As Christ followers, we are called to “sow the seeds” (bible verses are good seeds), as how/ whether the seeds would grow, we do not know.
 
francisca said:
For a protestant 1Corinth 6:9-11 would be enough. For a jew, leviticus would be enough. If their institutions do not believe in the bible, then based on what do their believe is laid on?

A single good opportunity to give them the verses in a good way would be enough. God will work from there. The next time Abby start a converstion about it then you just 🤷
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As Christ followers we are called to “sow the seeds” (bible verses are good seeds), but as how the seeds would grow, we wouldn’t know.
 
OrdinaryMelkite said:
They had an “ex-lesbian” and ex-radical feminist-turned Catholic commentator on some weeks ago on Life On The Rock----I forget her name. She is now an Orthodox Catholic who is now happily married and has six children.
They asked her a question about just this same subject and she straight out said “Do NOT roll out the “Natural Law” defense----it is not going to work.” What she suggested was accepting the person “at their level” and slowly show them the truth of the Church’s teachings by one living them and proclaiming them.

That, at least, is roughly of what I remember of her response. If anybody watched the show and heard something different, feel free to correct me. :)👍
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I found that episode, am listening to it now. That guest is Melinda Selmys. not to take anything away from her at all, I certainly respect her and her work. However, for me, as a 43 year old woman who lived the gay lifestyle for 25 years +/-, her story is less compelling to me than one might think. She converted to Catholicism at 19 and embraced the Church’s teachings on homosexuality at that time. She was “out” as a lesbian for about 6 months before converting. 🙂
 
The best angle I’ve heard a Catholic take on this is to use the language of “let me propose a way to think about this topic”. No wishiwashiness,…but by using the “propose” it keeps the conversation at a rational level…and it seems to put people in a more receptive mode. It gives them something to think about… Leaves them thinking, and generally impressed that you didn’t try to jam something into their brain.

“Let me leave you with another way to think about this”

“I am only making a proposal to you”
 
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