Talking with Mormons Missionaries. Discussion Tips?

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Whilst I would probably mostly be one of those simply saying “No thank you” what I see interesting in Jon’s and other posts is that they have a weak spot when fed with real history if you have prepared yourself well enough in suitable details.

It is so sad that they have dragged down general public esteem for all sciences, history and scholarship. If you could imply a question over issues of history, or intrigue them somehow, who knows, it might keep them open to the various other suggestions like using their time in Masses and such like. It’s marvellous that their supervisors let them get away with diluting their efforts by attending Mass and that Catholic things mean so much to so many of their members.

 

[gazelam]

Just to inform anyone still interested, I met with them and it went very well just like last time. We discussed a few things about the Book of Mormon like in the first Book, Nephi on what was described as the abominable church. Have to admit first time I read it I definitely felt it meant the Catholic Church, just on how the way it was described. Of course the missionaries didn’t say it was, but of course they wouldn’t.

Here is an LDS scholar’s take on the “Great and Abominable Church”. He does not believe that the Catholic Church is it, but probably not in a way that Catholics will like. It was published in the Ensign (the official LDS magazine intended for the general membership) and can be found here: lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=eng

Here’s an except that gives something of the flavor of the article. I hope this helps…

By the time of Constantine, the Apostles had been dead for centuries. Furthermore, the early Orthodox church can hardly be accused of immorality. It had, in fact, gone to the extremes of asceticism. In some areas of the world Orthodoxy replaced an earlier, already corrupt form of Christianity. And during much of the period, members of the Orthodox Church were not in a position to persecute anyone, as they were being thrown to the lions themselves. The Catholic church of the fourth century was the result of the Apostasy—its end product—not the cause. To find the real culprits, we need to look at a much earlier period in church history than the fourth century after Christ. Satan had his ministers in the world long before then, and we must remember that Babylon was already there to oppose Zion in the days of Cain, Nimrod, Pharaoh, and Herod.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Here is an LDS scholar’s take on the “Great and Abominable Church”. He does not believe that the Catholic Church is it, but probably not in a way that Catholics will like. It was published in the Ensign (the official LDS magazine intended for the general membership) and can be found here: lds.org/ensign/1988/01/warring-against-the-saints-of-god?lang=eng

Here’s an except that gives something of the flavor of the article. I hope this helps…

Yes I ran across the same thing with my missionaries. They assured me it wasn’t the Catholic Church specifically, but the entirety of Christianity that had been lead astray.

They were very ecumenical in that they constantly expressed appreciation for my testimony, acknowledged God can at least work through the Catholic Church, among others(they just aren’t the fullness of truth…sound familiar!?). They also kept expressing they were here to share their faith and good news and not diminish anyone else’s faith.

I think they are choosing a softer approach than say 100 years ago.

 

[KEP1983]

I think they are choosing a softer approach than say 100 years ago.

Yeah, I’ve read the things they said and taught 100 years ago. Very different.

To the OP, if you haven’t already, check out Sandra Tanner and Shawn McCraney. They are both former LDS, now evangelicals. Shawn McCraney is going a little over the top now. The heirarchy of the LDS church has turned him off from all “brick-and-mortar” churches… he’s really a one man band out there with a bible trying to figure it out on his own. This is leading him to some crazy conclusions now.

He’s an interesting character. But his show has talked a ton about Mormonism, trying to reach out to them. He has tons of info on LDS teachings, what they mean when they say certain things, LDS history, changes in LDS doctrine, etc. He backs it all up with sources from the LDS church themselves.

 

[Horton]

Just to inform anyone still interested, I met with them and it went very well just like last time. We discussed a few things about the Book of Mormon like in the first Book, Nephi on what was described as the abominable church. Have to admit first time I read it I definitely felt it meant the Catholic Church, just on how the way it was described. Of course the missionaries didn’t say it was, but of course they wouldn’t.

We also discussed just are different understandings of what God is and also Heaven and Hell, it was interesting to see the differences between us. I also told them about how the Church teaches the Pope is the representative of Jesus on Earth, and also how we view the Eucharist.

At the end I offered them Miraculous Medals which they accepted, and they asked I pray about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. In return I offered them my St. Martin De Porres prayer book which has Catholic prayers, they also accepted it.

Ill be meeting them again, perhaps for the last time maybe and they want to show me their Chapel so ill be meeting there. Thanks for the discussion tips and keep me in your prayers.

Bolding mine.
Be prepared to be disappointed in their chapel. They are pretty much all cookie cutter buildings and have almost no decoration. I’ve been to funerals in LDS buildings and once inside you would think you were in a high school auditorium, very bland. You won’t find anything relating to God there, and nothing like even the most modern Catholic Church.

Unveiling Grace is a good book about a family who left the LDS church. unveilinggracethebook.com/

I will pray you stay strong in your faith and appreciate these young men for being good young men, but that you don’t fall prey to their intentions.

 

[CatholicAMMO]

the most interesting topic for me when i dialogue with my mormon friends is their theory of the “great apostasy.”

the entire premise of their religion rests on this theory but there is no historical proof for it.

their faith is based on a restoration rather than a reformation, meaning that their faith pivots on the “great apostasy.”

the best i’ve gotten is circumstantial evidence and anecdotal appeals to emotion.

there was a really interesting debate between patrick madrid and a mormon apologist; i’ll see if i can’t find a link.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Whilst I would probably mostly be one of those simply saying “No thank you” what I see interesting in Jon’s and other posts is that they have a weak spot when fed with real history if you have prepared yourself well enough in suitable details.

It is so sad that they have dragged down general public esteem for all sciences, history and scholarship. If you could imply a question over issues of history, or intrigue them somehow, who knows, it might keep them open to the various other suggestions like using their time in Masses and such like. It’s marvellous that their supervisors let them get away with diluting their efforts by attending Mass and that Catholic things mean so much to so many of their members.

It’s not really something that is allowed, but is encouraged, with an end goal in mind. The Mormon missionaries have a predefined set of goals, one major being, to get a person to commit to reading their Book of Mormon and pray about it, and then commit to a follow up appointment. With each appointment they have a commitment goal in mind. It will only be one or two more appointments where the OP will be led to commit to a Mormon baptism.

 

[zaffiroborant]

It’s not really something that is allowed, but is encouraged, with an end goal in mind. The Mormon missionaries have a predefined set of goals, one major being, to get a person to commit to reading their Book of Mormon and pray about it, and then commit to a follow up appointment. With each appointment they have a commitment goal in mind. It will only be one or two more appointments where the OP will be led to commit to a Mormon baptism.

Even as a teenager and young adult I didn’t react well to this, trying to manipulate me instantly turns you from a neutral or positive to a major negative. After this I view the person as untrustworthy, self serving, I actively disbelieve and mistrust them.

 

[John_Lazarus]

If they invite you to there church by all means go even if they don’t attend yours. You’ll be able to experience the love bomb. Regardless of how popular you are in the real world as long as you are an investigator you’ll feel like the most popular person in the church. Tell them what they want to hear and enjoy the experience.

That does not seem particularly charitable.

 

[superwimp]

At the end I offered them Miraculous Medals which they accepted, and they asked I pray about the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith. QUOTE]

Hello CN,

     The BOM is about the world of religion.  It provided guidance for me back when I got caught up on a "which church is right" quest.  It's very possible that if you start spending a lot of time in prayer you might receive a positive response to the BOM.  According to Mormon logic the next step would be to join the Mormon church.  This is logic based on their own self interest.  Joining theirs or any church isn't really the logical next step.

 

[Jon_S_1]

It’s not really something that is allowed, but is encouraged, with an end goal in mind. The Mormon missionaries have a predefined set of goals, one major being, to get a person to commit to reading their Book of Mormon and pray about it, and then commit to a follow up appointment. With each appointment they have a commitment goal in mind. It will only be one or two more appointments where the OP will be led to commit to a Mormon baptism.

Yes this is how mine went. They were supposed to bring an apostasy expert from their ward in response to the evidence I gave against the apostasy. They never brought him though. After a few meetings they were like, “we would like to invite you to be baptized”. I told them I already was baptized and then explained that they had a lot more work to do before I ever would be a Mormon. Namely they would have to prove the apostasy happened, and that Joseph smith was a true prophet and that the Book of Mormon was true.

After another meeting or two. They basically just said, “we’ve given you all you need to know its true, it’s the Book of Mormon. If you sincerely pray about it then you too will know it’s true.”

That of course was insufficient.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Even as a teenager and young adult I didn’t react well to this, trying to manipulate me instantly turns you from a neutral or positive to a major negative. After this I view the person as untrustworthy, self serving, I actively disbelieve and mistrust them.

My opinion, in this regard, is that Mormon missionaries are under a two year manipulation by their church, so I have a level of compassion for them. They are doing what they are carefully trained and groomed to do, which is to carefully groom people towards accepting the truth claims of Mormonism.

Building trust of potential converts towards themselves is essential to obtaining commitments. Probing questions, looking for life issues or struggles to empathize with, then providing the solution: Mormonism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

That does not seem particularly charitable.

The facetious tone is a warning to not buy into the deception.

 

[Tommy999]

My opinion, in this regard, is that Mormon missionaries are under a two year manipulation by their church, so I have a level of compassion for them. They are doing what they are carefully trained and groomed to do, which is to carefully groom people towards accepting the truth claims of Mormonism.

Building trust of potential converts towards themselves is essential to obtaining commitments. Probing questions, looking for life issues or struggles to empathize with, then providing the solution: Mormonism.

Hi RebeccaJ,
I am very impressed by your familiarity with the Mormons and their approach at trying to win converts. Very helpful and insightful for us non-Mormons. Thank you very much for sharing.

 

[Jon_S_1]

My Mormons just came over last night! I was too tired to have them come in so they will come by next week.

They sent me this text today.

“Hey just a daily scripture 2 Nephi 31:13. Let us know what you think about it”

My response:

“Luke 10:16-Luke 10:19 NKJV He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.” Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.” And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

The passage you shared speaks of following Christ. The passage I share back speaks of the authority given to the disciples that even Satan and the demons submit to. For this reason apostasy of the entire church cannot occur.

Sorry I couldn’t meet last night. I was exhausted! Next week should be better."

While this passage I shared is not the type of authority we have focused on (apostles, bishops, Peter, pope). They have held that all true Christians…all of them were killed off or turned away and the priesthood was lost. This passage indicates that this cannot happen to the true followers of Christ.

 

[zaffiroborant]

My opinion, in this regard, is that Mormon missionaries are under a two year manipulation by their church, so I have a level of compassion for them. They are doing what they are carefully trained and groomed to do, which is to carefully groom people towards accepting the truth claims of Mormonism.

**Building trust of potential converts towards themselves is essential to obtaining commitments. Probing questions, looking for life issues or struggles to empathize with, then providing the solution: ** Mormonism.

It’s dishonest and manipulative.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s dishonest and manipulative.

Mormon missionaries are proselytizing. We are called to evangelize, which seeks to bring the Good News to people, without manipulation. Pope Francis has taught more than once, regarding the difference. Understanding the difference and methods being used, as an attempt to remove one from their Catholic faith, is important to understand (I think).

 

[Jon_S_1]

It’s dishonest and manipulative.

No not really. The believe their faith will help people and offer it to solve specific problems in their life.

We do the same thing.

 

[jane_doe]

No not really. The believe their faith will help people and offer it to solve specific problems in their life.

We do the same thing.

 

[zaffiroborant]

No not really. The believe their faith will help people and offer it to solve specific problems in their life.

We do the same thing.

No we don’t do the same thing, and they are not “offering” they are manipulating people. They use the same manipulative tactics that used car salesmen use.