Talking with my Jehovah's Witness cousin?

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godo4657 said:
I’m very close to my cousin who is a JW, and his favourite subject to talk about is the Bible… Recently I asked him if he believed that Catholics are Christians, and eventually he answered ‘no’. I asked him why, and he said because of our works and actions. He said he had talked with other Catholics before, only to hear stories of drinking and partying
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Ah, silly Catholics, associating with tax collectors and sinners. Can you believe these people? I mean, Jesus never talked to a sinful person in his life. He came to call the just, not the sinners, to repentance 😃
 
originally posted by PeaceSerenity
Ah, silly Catholics, associating with tax collectors and sinners. Can you believe these people? I mean, Jesus never talked to a sinful person in his life. He came to call the just, not the sinners, to repentance 😃
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My exMIL died after being a jw pioneer for 40 years. Her heart was in the right place and I’m sure God knew that. No one would have thought of her as a “sinner” just because she was a jw.
This is about doctrine, not Saints Vs “sinners”.
 
catsrus said:
My exMIL died after being a jw pioneer for 40 years. Her heart was in the right place and I’m sure God knew that. No one would have thought of her as a “sinner” just because she was a jw.
This is about doctrine, not Saints Vs “sinners”.
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Forgive me, I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I was pointing out the lack of biblical foundation for the OP’s cousin’s critique of Catholics. I didn’t mean to knock anyone’s faith or any particular person .

What I was trying to say was: Jesus doesn’t shy away from sinners so why should the OP’s cousin criticize Catholics for being sinners. The Church should be full of sinners because that is who Christ came to call. After all, it is better to constantly sin and repent than to be perfect and know it.

Sorry for the confusion, I should have been more clear.

PeaceSerenity
 
Pepband_Mom said:
Alexander Roman: Chris Evert is a 50 + yr old retired World Tennis Champion from the 1970’s - however, JASON Evert’s book on JW’s (book cover on upper right column of this thread) is unquestionably essential. READ IT, GET THE MAIN TALKING POINTS ABOUT JESUS’ DIVINITY & THE TRINITY down; don’t get sidetracked necessarily on blood, voting, etc.
(I tend to get long winded but I’m a Mom, ya know!)

JW’s & groups like them will twist you like a pretzel if you are UNPREPARED as they are trained to do so each week they attend - I know this, my JW coworker & I have discussed this for years now resulting in much reading & research on my part. But as far as the missionaries go, don’t let them run the show. Write up your talking points before you meet with them & stick to them, see the catholic.com site for Stumpers!

But be joyful and be nice 🙂 (See the MOM in me again!)

Actually the book “inside Mormonism” by former RC Priest - turned Mormon - turned RC again Isaiah Bennett has an interesting chapter on Apostasy. But with these groups, their “in” is that the Church failed & amazingly they all claim to be “The Church” - How can 30,000 - 50,000 denominations each exclusively claimed to have “restored” the “Church”? (The RCC is not a Denomination; it is THE CHURCH
rather the right lung & the left lung is the Orthodox as JP2 used to say)

However, groups frequently have different meanings for words such as : Jesus (Michael the Archangel), Holy Spririt (Active force) etc. Their Jesus and your Jesus ARE NOT NECESSARILY THE SAME PERSON! Watch word meanings.

DO YOUR HOMEWORK & Don’t think they can’t win you over. Or best to stay away & pray for them.

It doesn’t hurt to get CORAPI-IZED!

Fr. John Corapi’s shows on EWTN are barn burners chocked full of information - He always says to KNOW THE CATECHISM and KNOW YOUR FAITH!

Bottom line: pray your Rosary, go to the MASS frequently; Prayer is vital. Hey, even find a group of nuns or prayer group to lift you up as well as the person you want to discuss these issues with!

Remember, We are 1 body in CHRIST & We have 1 head - JESUS CHRIST Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (Hebrews) Not an angel not merely a man but the GOD-MAN

good job ariel 7978
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Sorry Mom! Jason Evert it is . . .

Alex
 
Send you cousin over here from your computer, tell him to practice his ministry work on-line right here. We’ll help him get his hours in. We respect other thinking and have “LOTS” of questions.

It will be a great learning experience for everyone.👍
 
Points to talk to you about: Matt 7:15-20, vowels in JHWH, word-smithing.
  1. Matthew 7:15-20 works for Jehovah’s Witnesses, in objectively evaluating their secret actions and intentions. The main point is that folks who appear friendly but are secretly not, are thornbushes, if women, and briars if men. The only JW’s I have known personally have all fit the thornbush in private, and the briars in private. You cannot talk to them because they are not remorseful. ((They do not care what you think or feel for real. It is an act.)) I would like to give you non personal work, but, I will not. This is from my own personal work on the issue.
  2. One of the JW’s main points is you cannot know God, or have a true relationship with God, unless you know His proper name. They don’t know this either. At the end of a teaching session by a 40 year or so member of the JW’s of which I was almost not allowed to ask a question ((See Matt 7:15-20)), the following happened:
    I asked her in the two allowed interruptions, why she kept talking about the name of God being removed from the Bible. I asked her if she is trying to say you can not have a relationship with God unless you know His name. This went unanswered. The second time I asked. I said are you trying to tell me, you cannot know God or have a relationship with Him, unless you know His proper name? She said yes. I said thank-you and continued to listen.
    At the end of her tutorial, I merely thought of the definition of Jehovah in the dictionary by Mirriam-Webster’. I thought how they ((Mirriam_Webster)) said it is an error made years ago by a Catholic Monk by improperly applying the vowels back then. I said nothing. She immediately upon finishing her subject on 'The Proper Name of God, and the removal of the same name by Christians everywhere." she started in on the subject of vowels. She said: " Of course we do not know the vowels. Vowels were not used back then. We do not know which vowels should be between the consonants. So, we do not know how to say His name."
    I then astoundedly went over this in my mind. I was so stupified and stunned, I stood up trying to understand what she had just said. I then put the two together, their position, not mine. My response at the time was:
    –I mumbled: “You say you no nothing of God. You state unless you know His proper name, you can know nothing of God. You cannot know God unless you know His proper Name. You say you do not know His proper Name. You say you know nothing of God. You have just stated you know nothing of God.” –
I was astonished, stunned, later pleased enormously with God for helping her reveal this to me correctly, and wondering why she just took 20 minutes on just this one point to tell me, that she and the entire organization, that she represents, the Jehovah’s Witnesses know nothing of God. I was stunned. I was so stunned I was standing and mumbling, while going over this in my mind. I finished.

I said nothing more. She said: " Well I guess you are just going to say I am a silly woman. " I did not reply. Why would she want to now, accuse me of an insult? I had allowed her to teach me unabated. She did. Her point was unless you know the proper name of God you cannot interface with Him. You cannot know Him. You cannot and we ((The Jehovah’s Witnesses)) do not know the proper name of God, therefore we know nothing of God. We say we cannot interface with Him in prayer or in any other way, without knowing His proper Name. We know nothing of God.
I thanked her. She asked me to come back anytime. I wondered why.
  1. Word-smithing, is one form of deception, that the JW’s use. Word-smithing is substituting your own, or other peoples definitions for common words, in an environment or context in which they are intentionally deceptive. The JW’s are continually doing this. Here is my experience on this:
    In a conversation about prophecy, where the JW’s were trying to say why they were not false prophets, I came across a positon held by the JW’'s on their prophecies. Deuteronomy 18, precisely covers God’s position. It says: 21 You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously, so do not be alarmed.
    The JWs, they tell, the word smithed truth, on their defense of their prophetic position, yet the word smithed truth is not understood by those who are not JWs. At the end of the conversation I am going to relate what, she, the JW said: I had asked her if the descriptions of their doing as the prophet Ezekiel did, and their non inspired, non infallible position was a correct description of the prophecy of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. She responded. “Why did you have to listen to somebody else. Yes. Why do you think we have had to change our scripture so many times over the years?”
What they said in word-smithed terms is:

We are not inspired. We are not infallible. We are prophets like the prophet Ezekiel, when we do like he did, when we get on the wall, when we tell peple what… We are prophets like that. Of course it is an easy thing to state this. It is another thing to prove it. Check our record.

What they said in your language is this:

The Holy Spirit does not cause us to know or do anything from God. The Holy Spirit does not force our group decisions to be correct as in The Holy Roman Catholic Church. We are actors who all act trying to act as the prophet Ezekiel. Of course it is an easy thing to say we are actors. It is an easy thing to say we all acting in the role of the prophet Ezekiel, as actors only. It is another thing to prove it. Look at our record if you doubt us. Look at our record if you think God is really directing or telling us anything.
Remember: She added: Why do you think we have had to change our scripture so many times?
 
godo4657 said:
I’m very close to my cousin who is a JW, and his favourite subject to talk about is the Bible… Recently I asked him if he believed that Catholics are Christians, and eventually he answered ‘no’. I asked him why, and he said because of our works and actions. He said he had talked with other Catholics before, only to hear stories of drinking and partying. This turned into a long conversation about our faiths, and for every single thing I said or asked about his faith, he gives me a Bible verse. Even when I thought I had stumped him, he throws another verse at me. I know a lot about Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I know quite a bit about Catholicism. But I don’t know how to prove my faith to him, all he wants are Bible verses, and I’ve rarely studied the Bible at all… And I must admit he has some pretty good points sometimes, but I just don’t know how to respond. How can I talk with him about our faiths without him ‘winning’ all the time? (Btw, he’s 26 and I’m 16).
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from one of those links on the right in the Catholic Forums Bookshop
shop.catholic.com/product.php?productid=199
 
Hi
I am reading NUTS & BOLTS by Tim Staples, which is a book for easy-to-do apologetics on the Catholic Faith, and as an ex JW-turned-catholic I can fully recommend it to you, as it covers many topics that JWs have twisted or that they have picked up, twisted from elsewhere…things they have in common with Mormons and Evangelists, all topics used to attack the catholic faith…it is very easy to follow and has much valuable information for confronting a JW. I have seen it for sale on this website, by the way.

May God Bless!!
Mariana
 
My stock answer to JW is this: What you are trying to tell me is that for some 1800 years God would allow a false teaching of Christianity to continue untill your guy came along and got it all right right? I’m sorry brother, but I just cannot believe this. You could go on and on about “the keys” being given to St. Peter etc etc…, but his mind has been so warped by JW teachings i fear it will not do any good. You just need to study and live the faith as taught by the RCC.
 
My stock answer to JW is this: What you are trying to tell me is that for some 1800 years God would allow a false teaching of Christianity to continue untill your guy came along and got it all right right? I’m sorry brother, but I just cannot believe this.
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This also works for mormons.
It’s perfect because it shuts down any further “verse thowing”, which both groups want to do so as to lure you into a “theological” arguement.
 
catsrus said:
This also works for mormons.
It’s perfect because it shuts down any further “verse thowing”, which both groups want to do so as to lure you into a “theological” arguement.
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Actually, this works in the mind of Catholics, but both Mormons and JW’s seem fairly immune to this logical statement and I have never experienced this argument shutting down verse throwing. You will know when you’re winning the argument because when they become baffled and speak to their elders about a particular point, they will be advised to stop talking to you. They have found the truth and they are sticking to their story, trust me.

I found an old Watchtower in which it advised their members to “hate the enemies of God” (non-JW’s, especially Catholics) “with a pure hatred”. When I asked this young woman to please explain she returned the next day to inform me that she was not allowed to continue our conversation. This was after months of visiting with her and sending her back to the Kindom Hall to get the answers she didn’t have. They had finally had enough .

If you’re ever expecting to make a sound argument that will finally convince them that you’re right and they’re wrong, it will never happen. The best you can do is to plant some seeds and pray for rain. Maybe at some point they will ask their own questions and leave this cult. You also have to understand the external pressures on these poor folks. By admitting that this religion is a scam, they are facing changing their life forever, including being shunned by family and friends. This is the aspect of this religion that truly identifies it as a cult.
 
Next time ask him what bible he believes in, who translate it from the original language (which is Hebrew for the OT and Greek for the NT), what is the credibility of those translator(s). Don’t talk about bible verses, yet. Why he believes in the bible not Quran nor the book of Mormon, nor any other holybook?
 
SteveVH said:
I found an old Watchtower in which it advised their members to “hate the enemies of God” (non-JW’s, especially Catholics) “with a pure hatred”. When I asked this young woman to please explain she returned the next day to inform me that she was not allowed to continue our conversation. This was after months of visiting with her and sending her back to the Kindom Hall to get the answers she didn’t have. They had finally had enough .
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I know another Holy Book which says the same thing. It is originally in Arabic.
 
swariffin said:
Next time ask him what bible he believes in, who translate it from the original language (which is Hebrew for the OT and Greek for the NT), what is the credibility of those translator(s). Don’t talk about bible verses, yet. Why he believes in the bible not Quran nor the book of Mormon, nor any other holybook?
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If you follow this line, expect them to misquote a host of biblical scholars in support of their translation, here is What the Scholars Really Said about the NWT,

forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm
jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/129670/1/The-New-World-Translation-is-a-Mess
bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm

You should ask them about the Johannes Greber connection to the NWT.
watchman.org/jw/greber.htm
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/apl/jw/greber.txt
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/apl/jw/wtgreber.txt
seanet.com/~raines/wtgreber.html

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Johannes+Greber++New+World+Translation&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=580575142019ba61&biw=1024&bih=524

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Johannes+Greber++New+World+Translation+letter&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=580575142019ba61&biw=1024&bih=524

theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/greber2.jpg
 
Big_Dummy said:
If you follow this line, expect them to misquote a host of biblical scholars in support of their translation, here is What the Scholars Really Said about the NWT,

forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm
jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/129670/1/The-New-World-Translation-is-a-Mess
bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm

You should ask them about the Johannes Greber connection to the NWT.
watchman.org/jw/greber.htm
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/apl/jw/greber.txt
iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/apl/jw/wtgreber.txt
seanet.com/~raines/wtgreber.html

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Johannes+Greber++New+World+Translation&aq=f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=580575142019ba61&biw=1024&bih=524

google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Johannes+Greber++New+World+Translation+letter&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=580575142019ba61&biw=1024&bih=524

theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/greber2.jpg
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Thanks for the link, brother. I think they are good for the OP and for the rest of us.
 
Maribelsan said:
Excellent points! I am sure to use them and learn more about JWs too. I have a few friends that belong to that cult and they do have to spend a few hours every weekend to meet their quota. Thank you and God bless!!
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From google.com/search?q=define%3A+cult&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=&oe=#hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&q=cult&tbs=dfn:1&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=V2xNTsSsBuGvsQKzpt3RBg&ved=0CB8QkQ4&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=3f29f24684baae47&biw=1280&bih=872
cult noun /kəlt/ 
cults, plural
1.A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object
  • the cult of St. Olaf
    2.A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister
  • a network of Satan-worshiping cults
    3.A misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing
  • a cult of personality surrounding the leaders
    4.A person or thing that is popular or fashionable, esp. among a particular section of society
  • a cult film
So… which of these are JWs? Only #2 fits: “regarded by others as strange or sinister”. (Of course, you’ll want to apply Google’s example. 🙂 )

“regarded by others as strange or sinister” which is why this also is defined, ibid.:
"The word cult pejoratively refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered strange. The word originally denoted a system of ritual practices. The narrower, derogatory sense of the word is a product of the 20th century, especially since the 1980s, and is considered subjective. …
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult "

Won’t take much searching the web to find “…cult of Mary…”, an acceptable RC term.
So maybe “cult” shouldn’t be used here … just to keep the conversation on a higher plane.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH said:
I make sure i these talks to have a bible with me, not his.
…
and as others have said read your bible.
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Which is exactly what we encourage householders to do. And it’s why so many RC- previously kept in ignorance of the Bible- become Witnesses. (It has been for some time the second-largest religion in Italy.)
As for his claims against the way some catholic live their lives that can not be held against the Chruch just those people.
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In both World Wars Catholics were told by their own countries’ hierarchies to ‘Kill the enemy!’- including RC soldiers on the other side. (All the mainstream churches did so, on both sides.) That was their oral doctrine, which is a matter of pride with many Catholics.
Their written doctrine- God’s word- said this:
“A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all [men] know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13:34,35, KJV et al. Then he went out and died for them.
A commandment, from the one whom Catholics worship as God Almighty, yet they went out and killed “one another”. IMO that’s bad behavior. Your opinion?
 
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