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JReducation
Guest
Many of us have been saying what Father Z said so succinctly in his opening statement. The Vatican’s patience have limits. The Holy Father and the Curia would only go so far and no further. There are the issues of faith that the Archbishop mentions and there is also the issue of justice and respect.
It would be unjust for the Holy See to yield to the pressure of the SSPX, which is a very tiny institute in comparison to the major religious orders and the dioceses around the world. Many of the questions that the SSPX has raised and for which it seeks clarification have been raised inside the Church. The Holy See has given us its responses. The difference is that those who have raised the questions have not attempted to convert the Holy See, nor have they made very public statements about the Holy See’s fidelity to tradition and they have not allowed anyone else to make them in their name or in their support.
I sincerely believe that the SSPX and its friends have to take a different approach. They should look at other traditionalist communities that are within the Church. They should also look at the major orders and observe how they interact with the Holy See. Sometimes, we have to learn vicariously. We also have to learn that changes, explanations and dialogue are time consuming processes. However, I rather have that dialogue inside, than standing outside in the cold talking through a window.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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codefro
Guest
Very true Br. Those were my sentiments as well.Many of us have been saying what Father Z said so succinctly in his opening statement. The Vatican’s patience have limits. The Holy Father and the Curia would only go so far and no further. There are the issues of faith that the Archbishop mentions and there is also the issue of justice and respect.
It would be unjust for the Holy See to yield to the pressure of the SSPX, which is a very tiny institute in comparison to the major religious orders and the dioceses around the world. Many of the questions that the SSPX has raised and for which it seeks clarification have been raised inside the Church. The Holy See has given us its responses. The difference is that those who have raised the questions have not attempted to convert the Holy See, nor have they made very public statements about the Holy See’s fidelity to tradition and they have not allowed anyone else to make them in their name or in their support.
I sincerely believe that the SSPX and its friends have to take a different approach. They should look at other traditionalist communities that are within the Church. They should also look at the major orders and observe how they interact with the Holy See. Sometimes, we have to learn vicariously. We also have to learn that changes, explanations and dialogue are time consuming processes. However, I rather have that dialogue inside, than standing outside in the cold talking through a window.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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Boulder257
Guest
Well said, as always.Many of us have been saying what Father Z said so succinctly in his opening statement. The Vatican’s patience have limits. The Holy Father and the Curia would only go so far and no further. There are the issues of faith that the Archbishop mentions and there is also the issue of justice and respect.
It would be unjust for the Holy See to yield to the pressure of the SSPX, which is a very tiny institute in comparison to the major religious orders and the dioceses around the world. Many of the questions that the SSPX has raised and for which it seeks clarification have been raised inside the Church. The Holy See has given us its responses. The difference is that those who have raised the questions have not attempted to convert the Holy See, nor have they made very public statements about the Holy See’s fidelity to tradition and they have not allowed anyone else to make them in their name or in their support.
I sincerely believe that the SSPX and its friends have to take a different approach. They should look at other traditionalist communities that are within the Church. They should also look at the major orders and observe how they interact with the Holy See. Sometimes, we have to learn vicariously. We also have to learn that changes, explanations and dialogue are time consuming processes. However, I rather have that dialogue inside, than standing outside in the cold talking through a window.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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LeeGrizz
Guest
Good. A sifting in the SSPX will occur and those who will remain truly faithful to Rome will jump ship and swim over to the FSSP, etc. lifeboats to be brought to the shores of truth where Protestantism doesn’t masquerade itself in a cassock.
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Cristiano
Guest
That sadly remind me of when I was a teenager and I kept pushing my father’s patience because I thought that I knew it all. I am sorry for them and one more time I am embarrassed for my past behaviors.
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TrueLight
Guest
What puzzles me is that there was already some bad history between Archbishop Mueller and the SSPX to begin with. I was surprised when he was appointed to deal with this situation along with Cardinal DiNoia who I think had a somewhat optimistic view of the situation.
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LeeGrizz
Guest
Abp. Mueller has the insider knowledge to deal with the breaking-away Germans. The SSPX makes a lot of noise but are quite small in reality. 500 priests or so, maybe a couple hundred thousand laity worldwide, vs the millions of Germans whose Bishops are going full on looney tunes, and the thousands of priests following them in this example.
Not everything revolves around the SSPX, though they like to make it seem that way. Victim mentality and such.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
True, that is why I keep asking why waste time with the SSPX? Put that effort into growing the FSSP instead.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
I hope they have some kind of mass open crossover program for the priests available.
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Marocchino
Guest
The only way out of this quagmire is to interpret Vatican II in light of Tradition, which has only been comprehensively done by few theologians. Foremost among such theologians are Mons. John McCarthy and Fr. Brian Harrison, respetively, whose website “Roman Theological Forum” contains priceless treasures of theology. If SSPX demands that the documents of an ecumenical council be revised and / or discarded, the Modernists / Progressivists will demand the same in respect to Vatican I, Trent, Florence, etc.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
What is preventing the priests from “crossing over” now anyway? Anyone can choose to come into communion with Rome if they choose to, there is no need for a program of some sort for it. The only reason no one is doing it from their end is they don’t want to break ranks. Now if they are going into formal schism then some priests might want to break ranks. They just go to their local archdiocesan bishop and signify their intent.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
So that there will be appropriate accommodation for them in groups like the FSSP and ICRSS. I know they don’t have to take them, but it would be good and would probably make the most sense if there was such a provision.
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Mrs_Sally
Guest
We can continue to pray. However, if Bishop Fellay cannot move the group forward as a group, I do indeed pray that priests “break ranks” and come back into the true Church even if they don’t immediately get to join FSSP.
For the good of their souls, they are better off in the Church saying Mass in a priest’s retirement home only, than outside the church travelling from chapel to chapel.
For the good of their souls, they are better off in the Church saying Mass in a priest’s retirement home only, than outside the church travelling from chapel to chapel.
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ConstantineTG
Guest
My point here is clergy move over from other groups all the time. Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican. The SSPX won’t be a different case. Of course the bishop would recognize that they would want to join a Traditional society so they should help facilitate that. But otherwise, the “process” has been in place for a long time.
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ProVobis
Guest
Good point. Also what to do with the FSSPX in training, who “gambled” on the fraternity to be unified with Rome.
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tabletkigvne
Guest
Ostatnio potrzebowałam takich tabletek i dostałam je i moge poleciec strone:
tabletki poronne
szybka wysyłka i wogóle!
Polecam Katarina
tabletki poronne
szybka wysyłka i wogóle!
Polecam Katarina
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Yes, but these other groups are, in the first case, different Churches and in the latter cases, ecclesial communities. SSPX priests are, for now, Catholic priests, I think until a decree of schism is promulgated.
I’m not sure about that one.
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JReducation
Guest
The Prefect for the Congregation of the Faith deals with the whole Church, East and West. He’s not appointed with any particular group in mind, but because he represents the mind of the current pope. He is the pope’s official voice in all matters concerning the faith.
The Vice President of the Ecclesia Dei Commission is appointed to assist the president, who in this case is the Prefect. His focus is on the traditionalists. But he takes his marching orders from the Prefect.
Neither one is appointed with the SSPX in mind. We must keep in mind that the SSPX is important and known ownly to those who are traditionalists or who are interested in the issue. It is not important to the universal Church or even to the Latin Church. Bishops are concerned about what happens in their dioceses. Religious superiors are concerned with what happens in their communities and their ministries. Whatever the SSPX thinks about Vatican II is not important to these other men. They’re not responsible for the SSPX.
Therefore, the Prefect must be a man who can work with these men, even if it means that he puts a limit on the SSPX. He must work with these other men according to the mind of the pope. He cannot drag in what Pope Nicholas IV said, what the Council of Trent said, what Pope Pius X said, etc. He operates out of what Pope Benedict XVI says and thinks. Obviously, Pope Benedict operates out of an ongoing apostolic tradition.
The only way out of this is to interpret these documents as Pope Benedict interprets them. Theologians are scholars. They are not the pope. The pope picks and chooses from what theologians have to say. As to demands, neither Modernists or Traditionalists have any right to place demands on the Holy See. This is in Canon Law. There is no appeal beyond the pope and what the pope holds cannot be appealed. In this case the pope has said that the documents of Vatican II must be accepted as being error free and as part of tradition. There is no right to appeal this or to have another opinion. One can have another opinion for whatever reason, but one cannot say that “I have a different opinion from that of the pope, because I have a right to have it.” The Church does not grant us this right in this case.
First of all, every priest and seminarian of the SSPX is a secular Catholic. They’re not consecrated religious. The laws that govern them are not the same as those that govern Protestant clergy entering the Church. Orthodox clergy entering the Church have no issues. They are validly and licity ordained deacons, priests and bishops. They make a profession of faith and apply to a Church to accept them and incardinate them.
For a secular priest or seminarian in the SSPX the options are quite simple. He can apply to join a diocese, another society of apostolic life, a secular institute or a religious community. He must undergo a period of probation. At the end of that period, the authority decides if he can stay or not. He can decide to leave.
If he joins a religious community, he goes back to the beginning, because he’s a secular seek to rise to the level of consecrated man. He must begin as a candidate, postulant, novice, junior professed and then perpetual profession, if the superior approves. During this period is ministry is limited to celebrating mass for the community and helping out on weekends with masses and confessions. He may not take on any other ministry as his focus is on acquiring the knowledge and virtues to live the consecrate life. Everything else is increased in stages until the day comes when he is fully active in the apostolic work of his new religious community.
Remember, a priest who is secular and enters a secular institute or a religious community is moving up. This is allowed. What requires the permission of the pope is for a priest who is a religious to become a secular priest and join the FSSP, ICRSS, or a secular institute, because this is considered moving down from a life consecrated to God to a life devoted to ministry. Consecration to God and ministry can coexist and do coexist in most religious communities. However, consecration to God always trumps ministry.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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RogerDeCourcy
Guest
Forget it’s the SSPX for a minute. Imagine it’s another group of priests validly ordained. Or even the Orthodox. Would ye set time limits on their being reconciled? Would ye get in a snit over their cheek in bringing up doctrinal or disciplinary issues?
The Church post-1970 is is very different to what it was in 1907. This is alarming to people
who have some sense of what it was before.
I think everyone involved should take a chill pill and get on with the most interesting business of straightening out whatever is at issue over Vatican II. Take yer time. Take 3 decades. Get it right.
The Church post-1970 is is very different to what it was in 1907. This is alarming to people
who have some sense of what it was before.
I think everyone involved should take a chill pill and get on with the most interesting business of straightening out whatever is at issue over Vatican II. Take yer time. Take 3 decades. Get it right.
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