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BlyssfulDreamer
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I am not sure what would be considered “profane”…but to my ears… a tambourine comes mightly close to musical profanity. I guess there is a time an place for everything…IMO. What’s next…cymbals?
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VociMike
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Do you understand what “profane” means in this context?
not devoted to holy or religious purposes; unconsecrated; secular (as opposed to sacred).
See for instance Musicae Sacrae.
The use of the word seems to have fallen out of favor in more recent Church documents (although John Paul II used it in reference to sacred music also), but those documents have the same concept, when they say such things as “only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use” (Sacrosanctum Concilium).
Unfortunately, the Church has ever explained what steps must be taken to make a profane instrument suitable for sacred use. It’s a giant loophole through which one can drive e.g. an entire praise band.
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Eddy
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Ok, so help me out. What makes an instrument ‘profane’? Is an organ ‘sacred’ when played by a devout Christian, and playing, say, Pange Lingua’, but then becomes ‘profane’ if it’s playing ‘Shine Jesus Shine’ by the same organist? Not that I’m a fan of ‘Shine Jesus Shine’ btw. Or is the organ inherently sacred? And the tambourine inherently profane? In which case David danced with a profane instrument? Or is it, just possibly, as brotherhrolf put so eloquently, all about context?
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JimR-OCDS
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I agree with what you are saying.
Again, the argument is nothing more than an matter of personal taste in music.
Saying one’s own likes is sacred and others are profane is of course, ridiculous!
Jim
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VociMike
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Not context exactly, but associations. For example, a priest says Mass wearing sacred (set aside for holy purpose) vestments. We see the vestments and we associate that style of clothing with sacred actions. One would have very different associations if the priest were at the altar wearing a business suit, or a Green Bay Packers jersey, or a camouflage outfit, or a Barney costume.
Associations can move from profane to sacred, but only over a long time, and only when an object ceases to have strong profane associations. As long as an object continues to have strong profane associations, it cannot develop sacred associations (without blurring the distinction between profane/secular and sacred, which is a good deal of the liturgical disaster from which the western world has suffered the past 40 years).
Thus, the pipe organ, whatever its origins, has been for over 1000 years primarily a sacred instrument (not many pipe organs in the secular world during that time). But e.g. the electric guitar and drums continue to be very widely employed in the secular music world, and thus cannot divest themselves of profane associations.
As for the tamborine, what went through the minds of the ancient Jews on hearing it is one thing, but what goes through the minds of modern Americans and Europeans is something quite different. When we hear it we do not think “sacred”.
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VociMike
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Apparently you just refuse to read and absorb the Church documents on music. If you did you could not make such statements.
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JimR-OCDS
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Actually I do, I just interpret them differently than you.
By your position, Catholics in China would have to exclude their styles and instruments in music, and use only those invented and used in Western Europe.
Such attitudes in the past, kept Chinese people from converting to the faith. It wasn’t until they could say the Mass in the vernacular, that there was a large upswing of conversions in China and other Far Eastern countries.
Jim
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VociMike
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And differently than the Church, as far as I can tell. Read some of Cardinal Arinze’s comments on the subject, for example, and see if you can derive “it’s all a matter of taste” from them.
This is simply false. Catholics in China would have different associations with different styles and instruments. I would expect that the Church in China would attempt to incorporate sacred (but not profane) Chinese instruments and styles into Catholic worship.
This assertion is completely off the subject. FWIW, I also don’t believe it.
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Potato1
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And how do you interperet specific launguage differently, can you at least show what you inerpret differently. How do you know the conversion rates of the Chinese… Could you please provide documentation on this?
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Walking_Home
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I don’t believe it either.
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JimR-OCDS
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Sacred music styles vary in different cultures.
When the Vatican document on the Sacred Liturgy says we’re to use music that is sacred. What is sacred is relative to culture.
Currently, the former pastor of my parish was transferred to a parish, where there is no music ministry. The Mass is sung by the people acapella, and with poor quality.
They would love for me to reform my folk group with guitars tambourines, harmonicas and whatever, and play for their Mass and yes, it would be sacred and reverent.
They just can’t get anyone to volunteer to do the music and they don’t have the funds to hire a organist. They’re in short supply in that neck of the woods.
Jim
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Eddy
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Yes, but surely by the same argument, people 50 years ago might have said latin was sacred and english was profane. Your argument seems to suggest that what is sacred or profane is what we get used to being sacred or profane, but there’s nothing inherently sacred or profane about an instrument (or a language, or style of worship) itself. Even the organ was once an innovation, and Pange Lingua was once a newly written hymn.
Personally, the organ that is played in my local Catholic Church doesn’t make me think ‘sacred’, it makes me think of ‘Roll Out the Barrels’ and Victorian music hall music (the very connection the Salvation Army made such effective use of). The organ played by the local presbyterians does actually have a fairly sacred tone.
I don’t think guitar and drums are necessarily profane in their connections - perhaps because I’ve encountered God in places and at times when they’ve been played. But then I believe in God in all things - I don’t actually think God is as worried about musical forms as about intention - man looks at outward appearance but God looks at the heart.
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Eddy
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Oh and Jim, you cheer me up no end, you really do. Thanks for being a star 
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JimR-OCDS
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Glad to be of service to you!Oh and Jim, you cheer me up no end, you really do. Thanks for being a star
Jim
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VociMike
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This is mostly true. I am not an absolutist, saying that instrument X can never develop enough sacred associations to be considered a sacred instrument. I am simply trying to follow the teachings of the Church in this matter. And, the indisputable collapse of the liturgical life of the Church in the past 40 years suggests that they knew something important about the subject, something that now has been largely abandoned to our great loss.
And as far as English vs. Latin, the Council never intended the entire Mass to be said in English, only the readings and certain prayers. But the change was made anyway, and many of these same sacred vs. profane issues suddenly popped to the surface. Sacred language is another topic, but the fact is, religions throughout the ages have adopted sacred languages (even modified forms of their vernacular, such as the Elizabethan English of the Anglicans).
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Potato1
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Good points… but they didn’t have one single thing to do with the questions I asked. If you want to just offer your opinion that is great but you dont need to quote me to do it if you aren’t going to answer the questions. If you feel the need to quote me to respond please actally deal with what is quoted. But as I said before, good points.
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JimR-OCDS
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From the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy;
I hope this answers this part of your question?
As far as the stats on conversions in China, that would take some hunting, for I read about it a few years ago, and I don’t remember if it was in a Catholic paper or a book.
However, as I remember, it was understood by Rome that the Chinese people had a problem with the Latin language and it was believed by missionaries, that not allowing them to use the vernacular in liturgical celebrations, hampered conversions there. After the vernacular was allowed, conversions came easier.
Feel free to prove me wrong here, for I’m opperating from a 55year old memory.
Jim
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Potato1
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I have no iterest in proving you wrong. I only have 2 issues here. 1) you are not making the argument that the tamborine is part of American culture and people wouldn’t convert without it are you? Becuse if that is true then Christopher Walken and Father Justin Brady are correct… We need more cowbell!!!From the Constitution of the Sacred Liturgy;
I hope this answers this part of your question?
As far as the stats on conversions in China, that would take some hunting, for I read about it a few years ago, and I don’t remember if it was in a Catholic paper or a book.
However, as I remember, it was understood by Rome that the Chinese people had a problem with the Latin language and it was believed by missionaries, that not allowing them to use the vernacular in liturgical celebrations, hampered conversions there. After the vernacular was allowed, conversions came easier.
Feel free to prove me wrong here, for I’m opperating from a 55year old memory.
Jim
2) be very careful when stating facts especially when you don’t know the source or when it has to do with Chinese conversions, as these are EXTREMELY hard to document at the saftey of the converts and the clergy. This issue is probably not reliable in talking about this thread. But that is here nor there and is just an observation. Have a good day and remember this is the dawning of the age of aquarius (imagine the tamborine in my hand as I sing, with my headband body oder and free lovin attitude… )Peace duuuude.
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JimR-OCDS
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Potato1
BTW, I stand corrected on the Chinese/Latin issue. It wasn’t Latin but cultural beliefs that were the center of the issue. Its known as the Rites Controversy.
larouchepub.com/other/2001/2843m_ricci.html
Jim
No I’m not and don’t understand how you got that from what I posted.
OK
BTW, I stand corrected on the Chinese/Latin issue. It wasn’t Latin but cultural beliefs that were the center of the issue. Its known as the Rites Controversy.
larouchepub.com/other/2001/2843m_ricci.html
Jim
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VociMike
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Jim, thumbs up to you for correcting your mistaken memory (happens to all of us).
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