Tangibles of God?

[DPMartin]

Exactly what are the tangibles of God that have scope and logic?

For example

If a man is forgiven, then does the man change because he is forgiven? The only thing that changes his relationship is restored as it was with the forgiver, but it does not mean the man that is forgiven has changed in any way.

Therefore where are, or what are the tangibles that are of God, that are a result of the influence of God’s Presence? That even a none believer can see.

 

[Prophesy]

Exactly what are the tangibles of God that have scope and logic?

For example

If a man is forgiven, then does the man change because he is forgiven? The only thing that changes his relationship is restored as it was with the forgiver, but it does not mean the man that is forgiven has changed in any way.

Therefore where are, or what are the tangibles that are of God, that are a result of the influence of God’s Presence? That even a none believer can see.

Hey,

I’m not sure if I’m understanding you correctly, but you’re asking what ways we can see physical results of God’s relationship with people?

If that’s the question, aside from miracles (particularly ones involving things like stigmata for the saints, etc). I don’t really think you see much else on a physical level.

-Prophesy

 

[DPMartin]

Hey,

I’m not sure if I’m understanding you correctly, but you’re asking what ways we can see physical results of God’s relationship with people?

If that’s the question, aside from miracles (particularly ones involving things like stigmata for the saints, etc). I don’t really think you see much else on a physical level.

-Prophesy

Prophesy

thanks for the reply

What about trust, or trust worthy, or trustworthiness? Or righteousness, judgement, and Mercy? Or even expectations.

Are these tangibles that have provable result, in Life?

 

[OscarsMama]

This may be kind of far out. I don’t want to sound “new agey” or anything.

But you can see God in everything. You just have to know what you are looking for. Jesus said it himself… when you did all those things for the little ones, you did it for me… (I am bad with Bible verses, but I hope you know which one I am referring to ).

When a person is carrying around a lot of pain, you can see it in their face. Their eyes are dull, their head hangs low, they slump, etc. Once they feel the forgiveness of God, although may still be in pain, you can see the weight lifted. Their eyes are brighter, they can hold their head up, they can walk straight.

Very small, but significant physical changes.

God is everywhere. You just have to look.

 

[seagal]

Exactly what are the tangibles of God that have scope and logic?

For example

If a man is forgiven, then does the man change because he is forgiven? The only thing that changes his relationship is restored as it was with the forgiver, but it does not mean the man that is forgiven has changed in any way.

Therefore where are, or what are the tangibles that are of God, that are a result of the influence of God’s Presence? That even a none believer can see.

The short answer is there is no absolutely identifiable mark of a Christian. If there were you wouldn’t be asking this question. The change is internal but may be manifested externally if you know what to look for. In your example, does a person change when they are forgiven, imagine that you are the person. You have done something that damages your relationship with another person, say your spouse. Depending on how serious the wrong, you will feel a certain amount of guilt which (if you have any conscience at all) makes you feel differently about yourself. It colours everything else in your relationship: the way you talk, what you share, what you do, how you interpret what they say or do. If the wrong is big enough it physically weighs you down, it sits like a lump in your chest. When you are forgiven you feel lighter, happier. The effects can be felt physically in your body.

I don’t know what a non-believer would be able to see that they would attribute absolutely to God, but what I’ve noticed about believers is that they have an aura of peace about them. They seem (generally speaking) to be happier and less stressed out because of their relationship with and their total trust in God. This is not to say that Christians can’t or won’t feel sadness or stress or anger or any other “negative” emotion. But (again generally speaking) it’s a passing phase, not a way of being, if you know what I mean. Of course, this way of being in the world is not exclusive to Christians, but I believe it is exclusive to people who believe in something, some power greater than themselves.

 

[Hecares]

I don’t know where in Scripture but I know that the song,“They’ll know we are
christians by our love” has a biblical basis. I also recall a quote that says (in my own words) Look at these Christians. See how they love one another! Love is not tangible, but its fruits often are. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not always tangible, but the fruits are more so.

 

[WoundedIcon]

Well… priests all kind of look alike. I mean, don’t they? there’s subtle facial characteristics they seem to share. And of course their body language. Etc.

 

[valentino]

Its true most of us feel no different after leaving a Sacrament.But in rare circumstances people have felt real changes.Like the saints who never ate or drank any thing for years but subsisted only on the Eucharist.(and they never lost weight).We know that the Sacraments due impart grace even though we experience no change.We people have to believe in that grace and respond positively by trying to improve our lives.

 

[DPMartin]

The short answer is there is no absolutely identifiable mark of a Christian. If there were you wouldn’t be asking this question. The change is internal but may be manifested externally if you know what to look for. In your example, does a person change when they are forgiven, imagine that you are the person. You have done something that damages your relationship with another person, say your spouse. Depending on how serious the wrong, you will feel a certain amount of guilt which (if you have any conscience at all) makes you feel differently about yourself. It colours everything else in your relationship: the way you talk, what you share, what you do, how you interpret what they say or do. If the wrong is big enough it physically weighs you down, it sits like a lump in your chest. When you are forgiven you feel lighter, happier. The effects can be felt physically in your body.

I don’t know what a non-believer would be able to see that they would attribute absolutely to God, but what I’ve noticed about believers is that they have an aura of peace about them. They seem (generally speaking) to be happier and less stressed out because of their relationship with and their total trust in God. This is not to say that Christians can’t or won’t feel sadness or stress or anger or any other “negative” emotion. But (again generally speaking) it’s a passing phase, not a way of being, if you know what I mean. Of course, this way of being in the world is not exclusive to Christians, but I believe it is exclusive to people who believe in something, some power greater than themselves.

seagal

thanks for the reply

I would completely disagree with that view.

A true Lover of God, loves virtues of God, and loves to see them in his neighbor. If one knows God in God’s Presence, then one knows what he sees that is a result of the Presence of God, and the result that which is not of the Presence of God.

 

[DPMartin]

This may be kind of far out. I don’t want to sound “new agey” or anything.

But you can see God in everything. You just have to know what you are looking for. Jesus said it himself… when you did all those things for the little ones, you did it for me… (I am bad with Bible verses, but I hope you know which one I am referring to ).

When a person is carrying around a lot of pain, you can see it in their face. Their eyes are dull, their head hangs low, they slump, etc. Once they feel the forgiveness of God, although may still be in pain, you can see the weight lifted. Their eyes are brighter, they can hold their head up, they can walk straight.

Very small, but significant physical changes.

God is everywhere. You just have to look.

OscarsMama

thanks for the reply

Though I believe, I understand what you are saying, and no one is going to dispute that there is relief when one knows they are forgiven. Where is the vitue of the Lord in the person?

Even when someone who files bankruptcy, and the relief of the weight of the debit is lifted; Does that change the person? What would keep that person from again, going into debit?

 

[DPMartin]

I don’t know where in Scripture but I know that the song,“They’ll know we are
christians by our love” has a biblical basis. I also recall a quote that says (in my own words) Look at these Christians. See how they love one another! Love is not tangible, but its fruits often are. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are not always tangible, but the fruits are more so.

Hecares

thanks for the reply

If you can feel the pain of a lost love, or a betrayed love, surly that tangible indeed. It touches you and you touch it.

How do you know he cares unless His Love touches you?

 

[DPMartin]

Well… priests all kind of look alike. I mean, don’t they? there’s subtle facial characteristics they seem to share. And of course their body language. Etc.

WoundedIcon

thanks for the reply

Well it could seem that way, considering that Priests do a similar service in the Church. I mean construction workers have similar characteristics being in the same working environment doing similar work and activity. A bad day on the job site could put the same facial expressions on everybody’s face.

For example: or

 

[DPMartin]

Its true most of us feel no different after leaving a Sacrament.But in rare circumstances people have felt real changes.Like the saints who never ate or drank any thing for years but subsisted only on the Eucharist.(and they never lost weight).We know that the Sacraments due impart grace even though we experience no change.We people have to believe in that grace and respond positively by trying to improve our lives.

valentino

thanks for the reply

So what is the Grace for, if nothing changes? So you can be what you where before you were forgiven? Are you saying that this is ok with God the Father who is in Heaven? Or are you saying it’s ok with the Church? responding positively by trying to improve our lives whould be according to who? Ourselves?

 

[seagal]

seagal

thanks for the reply

I would completely disagree with that view.

A true Lover of God, loves virtues of God, and loves to see them in his neighbor. If one knows God in God’s Presence, then one knows what he sees that is a result of the Presence of God, and the result that which is not of the Presence of God.

I agree with what you said, it’s essentially what I said in my post

what I’ve noticed about believers is that they have an aura of peace about them.

.

I’m not sure why you disagree with the rest of my post. In your OP you asked

what are the tangibles that are of God, that are a result of the influence of God’s Presence? That even a none believer can see.

Your response is about what believers can perceive about other believers.

 

[valentino]

valentino

thanks for the reply

So what is the Grace for, if nothing changes? So you can be what you where before you were forgiven? Are you saying that this is ok with God the Father who is in Heaven? Or are you saying it’s ok with the Church? responding positively by trying to improve our lives whould be according to who? Ourselves?

We have to act with grace.Its like you recieve a litttle and you act and you recieve a little more.In the beginning it may be very small depending mostly on the disposition of our souls.It is so small that is unnoticeable.but over time it builds up in us and it becomes more apparent.Also God does give more grace to some than others.It can be assumed that all canonized saints have been given extra graces.God chooses people whom He wills to become great saints.No.we aren/t the same as before we were forgiven but we cannot yet feel it.Yes,it is ok with the Father.Sinners don’t because saints over night and the Father knows this.But don’t give up because you don’t feel more holy or you feel that God doesn’t hear your prayers.Would be according to God and the Church of God.when we respond positively it doesn’t mean we know that we are responding in the best way.But anything that we feel is good(like holding my temper or not eating an extra piece of cake,it can be anything)So,yes in a way one could say its according to ourselves.

 

[Hecares]

"Hecares

thanks for the reply

If you can feel the pain of a lost love, or a betrayed love, surly that tangible indeed. It touches you and you touch it.

How do you know he cares unless His Love touches you?"

If you can feel the pain of a lost love, then you can feel the joy of a found love. However, love is not basically an emotion. It is an act of will. I can see God’s love working through his people. We are imperfect humans, so we don’t always allow God to work through us. In John 14:15-17, and 23-27 Jesus tells us “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it because it remains with you , and will be in you.”

"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.

‘I have told you this while I am with you. The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.’ "

From the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit : wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel,piety, fortitude and fear of the Lord. (See Isaiah11:1-3) These make us more receptive to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus tells us that if we follow His word, we demonstrate our love for Him and the Father will love us. He and the Father are one, therefore He will love us. If you know god’s word, you can see people following it. They are demonstrating their love but also through there actions they are demonstrating God’s love for his people.

 

[DPMartin]

I agree with what you said, it’s essentially what I said in my post .

I’m not sure why you disagree with the rest of my post. In your OP you asked
Your response is about what believers can perceive about other believers.

seagal
thanks for the reply

The reason I disagree is, if a group of people all walk in the same way (as in, of the world), nothing is noticed. If one walk in the Way amongst this group it is noticed. Some might admirer the Way, some might detest the Way as foolishness or of no value, and some might see it as a threat to their own ways. Especially if many of their own group begin to admire the Way, and seek it. Therefore it is noticed, not hidden in the ways of the group.

I once heard a scholar say that some time before the Catholic Church was established as the religion of the Roman Empire that believers were called the “People of the Way”. I don’t know where he got that information, but it seems to ring true.

If you think about it, one doesn’t have to accuse the world around him of their wrong doing. If one walks in the Way, it will be noticed. Those who would admire the Way will seek the Way which is the Lord Jesus Christ. And we all know that the Lord wants those who would Love Him, and reveals Himself to those who Love Him. Which is tangible in the world that others can see that it is. If someone’s beliefs are challenged by the ways of others, will he respond ethically?

When it come to the Truth of God there are no in-betweeners.

 

[DPMartin]

"Hecares

thanks for the reply

If you can feel the pain of a lost love, or a betrayed love, surly that tangible indeed. It touches you and you touch it.

How do you know he cares unless His Love touches you?"

If you can feel the pain of a lost love, then you can feel the joy of a found love. However, love is not basically an emotion. It is an act of will. I can see God’s love working through his people. We are imperfect humans, so we don’t always allow God to work through us. In John 14:15-17, and 23-27 Jesus tells us “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it because it remains with you , and will be in you.”

"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.

‘I have told you this while I am with you. The Advocate, the Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name - he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you. Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.’ "

From the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we receive the gifts of the Holy Spirit : wisdom, understanding, knowledge, counsel,piety, fortitude and fear of the Lord. (See Isaiah11:1-3) These make us more receptive to the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus tells us that if we follow His word, we demonstrate our love for Him and the Father will love us. He and the Father are one, therefore He will love us. If you know god’s word, you can see people following it. They are demonstrating their love but also through there actions they are demonstrating God’s love for his people.

Hecares

thanks for the reply

Nice very nice, thank you for saying so. He who says “praise the Lord” says noting. But if one loves to talk about the Lord and virtues of the Lord that he Loves admires and respects, truly praises the Lord without being told to do so.

 

[DPMartin]

We have to act with grace.Its like you recieve a litttle and you act and you recieve a little more.In the beginning it may be very small depending mostly on the disposition of our souls.It is so small that is unnoticeable.but over time it builds up in us and it becomes more apparent.Also God does give more grace to some than others.It can be assumed that all canonized saints have been given extra graces.God chooses people whom He wills to become great saints.No.we aren/t the same as before we were forgiven but we cannot yet feel it.Yes,it is ok with the Father.Sinners don’t because saints over night and the Father knows this.But don’t give up because you don’t feel more holy or you feel that God doesn’t hear your prayers.Would be according to God and the Church of God.when we respond positively it doesn’t mean we know that we are responding in the best way.But anything that we feel is good(like holding my temper or not eating an extra piece of cake,it can be anything)So,yes in a way one could say its according to ourselves.

Valentino
thanks for the reply

Though I understand your point, to a point.

The fulfillment of human existence is according to Jesus Christ. Who is the fulfillment of human existence to the satisfaction of the Father who is in Heaven. Therefore not according to ourselves, but according to the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the Word of God (John:1:1-2) in the Holy Spirit (Mt:1:20,Lk:1:35), which is the Presence of God.