Taoism and Catholicism

[StormSurfer]

that is why in the movie as in real life, only the trained and disciplined are granted such power

do taoist monks wield any kind of power?

Catholic priests of course have the power of dispensing grace through the sacraments and other things like exorcism which lay Catholics do not have

I may not know much about the Star Wars movies but I do know their is a Dark Side, and some of the Dark Side’s people were on the good side before, so…

I have never met one, so I can’t answer that and know for a fact if they do or not.

I guess they do, I have never seen it, or felt it, or heard it, so I am gonna go with you that they do wield a power.

 

[choy]

of course by power i didn’t mean The Force-like powers

through priests the power of God reaches us through mostly the Sacraments (like forgiving sins, uniting man and woman in marriage, etc.)

i’m wondering if Taoist monks or if there are the equivalent of priests, if they have powers from Chi

 

[StormSurfer]

of course by power i didn’t mean The Force-like powers

through priests the power of God reaches us through mostly the Sacraments (like forgiving sins, uniting man and woman in marriage, etc.)

i’m wondering if Taoist monks or if there are the equivalent of priests, if they have powers from Chi

I guess they do, I have never seen them perform a act before.

They might, I plan on practicing Tai Chi and Chi Kung (Qiqong) when I go to China, but I will let you know if I can still find this forum then.

 

[Harpazo]

If I remember correctly, in Chinese bibles the Gospel of John starts out as, “In the beginning was the Tao, and the Tao was with God, and the Tao was God,” yes?

I have heard the same thing.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[credoinunum]

I’ve always found reading the Tao te Ching to help improve my understanding of my Catholic Faith. The TTC gives on interesting look when it says:

Understanding others is knowledge
Understanding oneself is enlightenment
Conquering others is power
Conquering oneself is strength
Contentment is wealth
Forceful conduct is willfulness

To me, this expresses an important Christian belief of knowing God and oneself rather than considering all of that which is trivial (i.e., be focused on knowing God, in the world, ourselves, the Church…everywhere). Similarly, we need to focus on conquering our own sinful nature to live the truly holy life, rather than trying to conquer others in order to acquire that which is impermanent. Finally, we should be content living in the love of God, rather than being self-serving and sinful.

 

[DavidMark]

I am very glad some Taoists have progressed to Christ, but many have also gone farther and come to Bahá’u’lláh.
This is progressive Revelation, also detailed in the Sura of Hud in the Qur’án.
Taoists have became Bahá’í and thereby accepted Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Abrahamic prophets, Moses, Christ and Muhammad, the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh,
…and if they were living 1000+ years from now, would hope to recognize the next Manifestation of God when He comes.
It does not mean one has to observe all the social teachings, which are updated by the divine Physician according to the needs of the age --but loving the common Reality.
Each one was like Dawn, each one was an Educator, and as long as God has a creation, which is forever, these divine Manifestations will continue to appear.

**Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation.
As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure.
As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets.
Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings.(**Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 143)

Peace and unity is better than war. Violence is not an inescapable trait of humans.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I am very glad some Taoists have progressed to Christ, but many have also gone farther and come to Bahá’u’lláh.
This is progressive Revelation, also detailed in the Sura of Hud in the Qur’án.
Taoists have became Bahá’í and thereby accepted Buddha, Zoroaster, and the Abrahamic prophets, Moses, Christ and Muhammad, the Báb & Bahá’u’lláh,
…and if they were living 1000+ years from now, would hope to recognize the next Manifestation of God when He comes.
It does not mean one has to observe all the social teachings, which are updated by the divine Physician according to the needs of the age --but loving the common Reality.
Each one was like Dawn, each one was an Educator, and as long as God has a creation, which is forever, these divine Manifestations will continue to appear.

Say: Human utterance is an essence which aspireth to exert its influence and needeth moderation.
As to its influence, this is conditional upon refinement which in turn is dependent upon hearts which are detached and pure.
As to its moderation, this hath to be combined with tact and wisdom as prescribed in the Holy Scriptures and Tablets.
Meditate upon that which hath streamed forth from the heaven of the Will of thy Lord, He Who is the Source of all grace, that thou mayest grasp the intended meaning which is enshrined in the sacred depths of the Holy Writings.(Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 143)

Peace and unity is better than war. Violence is not an inescapable trait of humans.

I’ve been reading the Tao te Ching,
And poem #74 caught my attention.

The people do not fear at all to die;
What’s gained therefore by threat’ning them with death?
If you could always make them fear decease,
As if it were a strange event and rare,
Who would then dare to take and slaughter them?
The executioner is always set
To slay, but those who substitute for him
Are like the would-be master carpenters
Who try to chop as that skilled craftsman does
And nearly always mangle their own hands!

A commentary states that this is about capital punishment,
And the interplay between community and the individual.

And that when death is commonplace,
It is not aversive,
When death is remarkable
It is aversive.

Is there a connection between this and Luke 14:31-33?

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Correct me if I’m wrong…

Peace and unity is better than war.

This is so because,
Peace and Love are the principles of a just war.
And so we seek Peace and Love first and foremost.

And that when death is commonplace,
It is not aversive,
When death is remarkable
It is aversive.

So,

According to Taoism,
Found in poem #74 of the Tao Te Ching,

When death is commonplace
(Such as we see in abortion or a war)
Death is not a deterrent.

When death is remarkable,
(Such as determining the legalization of abortion
Or beginning a war in time of peace)
Death is a deterrent.

But,

This line of reasoning is not valued,
If capital punishment is not intended to deter,
(Such as ethnic cleansing or extermination),
Or is foremost to deter, then to kill.
(Such as some torture methods).

Is deterrence the principle of a “just” killing?

 

[ralphinal]

Interesting thread.

I feel that I should point out that in Catholicism, there is God, who is all-Good, but there is NO equal, all-evil force. For all of the evil of the devil, he is not an equal force to God to balance things out.

 

[DavidMark]

Correct me if I’m wrong…

This is so because,
Peace and Love are the principles of a just war.
And so we seek Peace and Love first and foremost.

You are right. No war is good and shouldn’t have to happen, but some are like excising a cancer, and must be done for the helath of the body politic. One may be coming soon to the world…AGAIN!

…the size of the armaments of every government should be strictly limited, for if the preparations for war and the military forces of any nation should be allowed to increase, they will arouse the suspicion of others. The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government. (Abdu’l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 65)

Concerning capital punishment, life imprisonment is an option:
Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn;
should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death.
Take ye hold of the precepts of God with all your strength and power,
and abandon the ways of the ignorant.
Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment,
it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book.
He, verily, hath power to ordain whatsoever He pleaseth.(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 41)

Thus doth the Lord make plain the ways of truth and guidance,
**ways that lead to one way, which is this Straight Path. **
Render thanks unto God for this most gracious favour;
offer praise unto Him for this bounty that hath encompassed the heavens and the earth; extol Him for this mercy that hath pervaded all creation. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 24)

 

[Psychotheosophy]

You are right. No war is good and shouldn’t have to happen, but some are like excising a cancer, and must be done for the helath of the body politic. One may be coming soon to the world…AGAIN!

…the size of the armaments of every government should be strictly limited, for if the preparations for war and the military forces of any nation should be allowed to increase, they will arouse the suspicion of others. The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government. (Abdu’l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 65)

Concerning capital punishment, life imprisonment is an option:
Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn;
should anyone deliberately take another’s life, him also shall ye put to death.
Take ye hold of the precepts of God with all your strength and power,
and abandon the ways of the ignorant.
Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment,
it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book.
He, verily, hath power to ordain whatsoever He pleaseth.(Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 41)

Thus doth the Lord make plain the ways of truth and guidance,
**ways that lead to one way, which is this Straight Path. **
Render thanks unto God for this most gracious favour;
offer praise unto Him for this bounty that hath encompassed the heavens and the earth; extol Him for this mercy that hath pervaded all creation. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 24)

From the worldwide catholic perspective…

Sin is the real enemy and disease,
Against the individual and his community,
The cause of all illness and death,
Originated from mankind,
Conquered by Love.

 

[Psychotheosophy]

…the size of the armaments of every government should be strictly limited, for if the preparations for war and the military forces of any nation should be allowed to increase, they will arouse the suspicion of others. The fundamental principle underlying this solemn Pact should be so fixed that if any government later violate any one of its provisions, all the governments on earth should arise to reduce it to utter submission, nay the human race as a whole should resolve, with every power at its disposal, to destroy that government. (Abdu’l-Baha, The Secret of Divine Civilization, p. 65)

According to the Tao Te Ching Poem #74,

The larger the community
Death is more commonplace,
And therefore, death is less aversive.

What is Taoism’s understanding of a one world government?

 

[DavidMark]

What is Taoism’s understanding of a one world government?

I think you could answer this better than me, but the human community should be able to govern itself. I sure hope that nationalism is not the ultimate degree of our development!
It would seem to me that Lao Tsu’s approach would have much to offer to a planet inhabited by people who are strongly centered around their local communities, and yet respectful of other peoples. Perhaps it occured to him, as it did to the thirteen colonies, that, as individuals grow, so does the species, and a time would come when exigencies and advancements required a federal union, with judicial, legislative and executive powers.

 

[DavidMark]

What is Taoism’s understanding of a one world government?

**Chinese Religions for Deepening and Dialogue **
Lead Faculty: Phyllis Chew
Faculty: Theo Cope and Anne Pearson
Duration of course: Three months (Nov. 1, 2009- Jan. 31, 2010)
In this course we will cover the rise and development of the Taoist and Confucian traditions; explore their ideas, values, and practices; consider the ways they are being modified and applied in the modern world; and examine their similarities to and differences from the Baha’i teachings.

Wilmette Institute, 1233 Central Street, Evanston, IL, 60201-2886 USA
Phone 1.877.WILMETTE (1.877.945.6388) - Fax: 1.847.733.3563
Email: info@wilmetteinstitute.org - Web: www.wilmetteinstitute.us.bahai.org

 

[Psychotheosophy]

According to the Tao Te Ching Poem #74,

The larger the community
Death is more commonplace,
And therefore, death is less aversive.

What is Taoism’s understanding of a one world government?

I should point out a smaller detail.

Given all thing being equal,
The larger the community,
Death is more commonplace,
And therefore, death is less aversive.

For example,

Death is less commonplace,
In the smaller community (a nursing home),
Than the larger community (a larger nursing home).

But,

Death is more commonplace,
In the smaller community (a nursing home),
Than the larger community (a city).

I think you could answer this better than me, but the human community should be able to govern itself. I sure hope that nationalism is not the ultimate degree of our development!
It would seem to me that Lao Tsu’s approach would have much to offer to a planet inhabited by people who are strongly centered around their local communities, and yet respectful of other peoples. Perhaps it occured to him, as it did to the thirteen colonies, that, as individuals grow, so does the species, and a time would come when exigencies and advancements required a federal union, with judicial, legislative and executive powers.

…And in America,

People in government,
Are no better,
Than any of those they govern.

**Chinese Religions for Deepening and Dialogue **
Lead Faculty: Phyllis Chew
Faculty: Theo Cope and Anne Pearson
Duration of course: Three months (Nov. 1, 2009- Jan. 31, 2010)
In this course we will cover the rise and development of the Taoist and Confucian traditions; explore their ideas, values, and practices; consider the ways they are being modified and applied in the modern world; and examine their similarities to and differences from the Baha’i teachings.

Wilmette Institute, 1233 Central Street, Evanston, IL, 60201-2886 USA
Phone 1.877.WILMETTE (1.877.945.6388) - Fax: 1.847.733.3563
Email: info@wilmetteinstitute.org - Web: www.wilmetteinstitute.us.bahai.org

How much does this cost?

 

[DavidMark]

I think it’s about $100 for materials. Contact them, and goodluck!



O Thou Almighty! We are Thy servants and Thy poor ones; we are remote and yearn for Thy presence, are athirst for the water of Thy fountain, are ill, longing for Thy healing.
We are walking in Thy path and have no aim or hope save the diffusion of Thy fragrance,

so that all souls may raise the cry: O God, *“Guide us to the straight path.” *
May their eyes be opened to behold the light, and
may they be freed from the darkness of ignorance.
May they gather around the lamp of Thy guidance.
May every portionless one receive a share.
May the deprived become the confidants of Thy mysteries.
O Almighty! Look upon us with the glance of mercifulness.
Grant us heavenly confirmation. Bestow upon us the breath of the Holy Spirit,
so that we may be assisted in Thy service and, like unto brilliant stars, shine in these regions with the light of Thy guidance. Verily, Thou art the Powerful, the Mighty, the Wise and the Seeing. (Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of the Divine Plan, p. 64)

 

[Psychotheosophy]

I think it’s about $100 for materials. Contact them, and goodluck!

The class by Mr. Cope and Ms. Pearson may be a little steep for me.
Maybe you could answer some questions for me.

I understand
That the Baha’i Faith (or Taoism),
Appreciates the equality of men and women.
Does the Baha’i Faith (or Taoism)
Appreciate their interdependence,
As found in Catholicism?

O Thou Almighty! We are Thy servants and Thy poor ones; we are remote and yearn for Thy presence, are athirst for the water of Thy fountain, are ill, longing for Thy healing.
We are walking in Thy path and have no aim or hope save the diffusion of Thy fragrance,

so that all souls may raise the cry: O God, *“Guide us to the straight path.” *
May their eyes be opened to behold the light, and
may they be freed from the darkness of ignorance.
May they gather around the lamp of Thy guidance.
May every portionless one receive a share.
May the deprived become the confidants of Thy mysteries.
O Almighty! Look upon us with the glance of mercifulness.
Grant us heavenly confirmation. Bestow upon us the breath of the Holy Spirit,
so that we may be assisted in Thy service and, like unto brilliant stars, shine in these regions with the light of Thy guidance. Verily, Thou art the Powerful, the Mighty, the Wise and the Seeing. (Abdu’l-Baha, Tablets of the Divine Plan, p. 64)

Is their an equivalent,
To the “Bread of Life”
In the Baha’i Faith (or Taoism)
As found in Catholicism?

 

[DavidMark]

I understand
That the Baha’i Faith (or Taoism),
Appreciates the equality of men and women.
Does the Baha’i Faith (or Taoism)
Appreciate their interdependence,
As found in Catholicism?

Is their an equivalent,
To the “Bread of Life”
In the Baha’i Faith (or Taoism)
As found in Catholicism?

Good questions. Yes the interdependence of women and men is depicted as the wings of one bird…which should be balanced for the bird (humanity) to truly fly.
The Word of God has always been the Bread of spiritual life for the people.

** …Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. **—Matthew 4:4 KJV

A new Word has been given and spoken to guide us back to the straight Path. All people are in need of this Bread, even if they are not consciously expecting it.
**
This is the bread of which it is said: “Lord, send down upon us Thy bread from heaven.”**
[Qur’án 76:9] This bread shall never be withheld from them that deserve it, nor can it ever be exhausted. It groweth everlastingly from the tree of grace; it descendeth at all seasons from the heavens of justice and mercy. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 22)

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Good questions. Yes the interdependence of women and men is depicted as the wings of one bird…which should be balanced for the bird (humanity) to truly fly.
The Word of God has always been the Bread of spiritual life for the people.

** …Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. **—Matthew 4:4 KJV

A new Word has been given and spoken to guide us back to the straight Path. All people are in need of this Bread, even if they are not consciously expecting it.
**
This is the bread of which it is said: “Lord, send down upon us Thy bread from heaven.”**
[Qur’án 76:9] This bread shall never be withheld from them that deserve it, nor can it ever be exhausted. It groweth everlastingly from the tree of grace; it descendeth at all seasons from the heavens of justice and mercy. (Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 22)

From a catholic perspective,

There is a hierarchical operation,
Of many parts of a bird’s body,
For the bird to truly fly.
Can there be equality,
Within a hierarchy?

You gave an example
Of a bird’s two wings,
But can there be equality
Without having to be identical?

If all are equal,
Who or what,
Deserves
Death?

In Nature,
It is usually considered
The survival of the strongest.

 

[DavidMark]

If we simply followed nature,
there would be no City of God.

‘All are created by God’
‘the Lord God is good’,
so ‘all that God created He created good’;

…the part cannot possess perfections whereof the whole is deprived. (Tablet to August Forel, p. 11)
**Man possesses certain virtues of which nature is deprived. **(‘Abdu’l-Bahá, PUP, p. 79)
**The truth is that God has given to man certain powers which are supernatural. **(PUP, p. 17)

Remember the parables gently told:
The Master sent out workers at different times, and paid them what was agreed.
(These can be compared to the Abrahamic faiths, each with their own covenants.)

Or the one about the land owner who sent revenue collectors who were beaten.
So He sent His own Son, Who was killed. What will He do? Return and establish justice.

The world cannot be governed at this stage without the benevolent King.