T
- Status
X
Xuan
Guest
Hi trickster,
I’m certainly no expert, but this might give you a little glimpse of what you’re looking for.
Daoism developed through shamanism, which had been developing since the Ice Age. The earliest known Daoist figure was Fu Hsi, who lived about 2800 BCE. The first to put Daoist thoughts into writing, though, was Lao-Tzu (Laozi), who wrote the Dao De Jing (Tao Te Ching), literally “The Canon of the Way and Virtue (Power). While Dao Jiao (religious Daoism) has many stories about gods and other beings, Daoists will generally readily admit that the gods are human constructs. But Dao Jia (philosophical Daoism) spells out how things are and how they got to be this way.
In the beginning was the Dao, the Way. We simply call it that for lack of a better word. “The name that can be named is not the eternal Way.” Nor can it be described, although some people try, just as some people try to describe God.
The Dao gave birth to duality. This refers to yin and yang qualities. Yin relates to the earth (passive, feminine, dark, moist, etc.) and yang relates to the heavens (active, masculine, light, dry, etc.) Yin also relates to physicality, whereas yang relates to spirituality. Some common misconceptions notwithstanding, they have nothing to do with “good and evil.”
“From duality springs trinity”. This involves the union of yin (physicality) with yang (spirituality) through qi (chi). There’s no english equivalent to the word “qi”. I’ve heard it described as “life energy” or “life force”, but those terms really don’t have the same meaning as “qi”. The trinity is depicted by the taijitu symbol (commonly known as the yin yang symbol), where the black represents yin and the white represents yang. Each contains a little of the other, the dot, and qi binds them together to make the whole symbol.
“From trinity springs ten thousand things.” (everything)
The Dao is the source of everything that is. Qi binds yin and yang together to form everything that is. Like God, the Dao is all-encompassing; it’s everywhere. It determines the way things are.
When men began to divide and name things, some named the Dao “God.”
It follows from the philosophy that living in accordance with the Way is good and will benefit a person. The three most important virtues in Daoism are compassion, moderation, and humility, humility both toward other people, and towards the Way itself. Daoism doesn’t really address an afterlife clearly, except the implication of being able to become one with the Dao if one lives in accordance with the Dao.
This is really a quick description, but maybe it will give a little glimpse into what Daoism is all about. In some ways it’s much more subtle than Christianity. It basically holds that if you don’t act in accordance with the Way, things will be more difficult for you.
Xuan
I’m certainly no expert, but this might give you a little glimpse of what you’re looking for.
Daoism developed through shamanism, which had been developing since the Ice Age. The earliest known Daoist figure was Fu Hsi, who lived about 2800 BCE. The first to put Daoist thoughts into writing, though, was Lao-Tzu (Laozi), who wrote the Dao De Jing (Tao Te Ching), literally “The Canon of the Way and Virtue (Power). While Dao Jiao (religious Daoism) has many stories about gods and other beings, Daoists will generally readily admit that the gods are human constructs. But Dao Jia (philosophical Daoism) spells out how things are and how they got to be this way.
In the beginning was the Dao, the Way. We simply call it that for lack of a better word. “The name that can be named is not the eternal Way.” Nor can it be described, although some people try, just as some people try to describe God.
The Dao gave birth to duality. This refers to yin and yang qualities. Yin relates to the earth (passive, feminine, dark, moist, etc.) and yang relates to the heavens (active, masculine, light, dry, etc.) Yin also relates to physicality, whereas yang relates to spirituality. Some common misconceptions notwithstanding, they have nothing to do with “good and evil.”
“From duality springs trinity”. This involves the union of yin (physicality) with yang (spirituality) through qi (chi). There’s no english equivalent to the word “qi”. I’ve heard it described as “life energy” or “life force”, but those terms really don’t have the same meaning as “qi”. The trinity is depicted by the taijitu symbol (commonly known as the yin yang symbol), where the black represents yin and the white represents yang. Each contains a little of the other, the dot, and qi binds them together to make the whole symbol.
“From trinity springs ten thousand things.” (everything)
The Dao is the source of everything that is. Qi binds yin and yang together to form everything that is. Like God, the Dao is all-encompassing; it’s everywhere. It determines the way things are.
When men began to divide and name things, some named the Dao “God.”
It follows from the philosophy that living in accordance with the Way is good and will benefit a person. The three most important virtues in Daoism are compassion, moderation, and humility, humility both toward other people, and towards the Way itself. Daoism doesn’t really address an afterlife clearly, except the implication of being able to become one with the Dao if one lives in accordance with the Dao.
This is really a quick description, but maybe it will give a little glimpse into what Daoism is all about. In some ways it’s much more subtle than Christianity. It basically holds that if you don’t act in accordance with the Way, things will be more difficult for you.
Xuan
T
trickster
Guest
Xuan, thank you so much for that explanation, I found it very powerful and helpful…I will have to google up those words and learn more.
My own experience of “chi” is recent and I don’t believe it contradicts anything that we believe in the Catholic faith…we believe that God is all, “I Am Who Am” and we breath that “am” in as part of our meditation.
The Eastern methodologies, focus on biological realities of breathing, concentrating on the breath, etc., time honoured and older than Christianity itself is certainly no new age thing…that is rather insulting to the great wisdom of these 5000 year old religions…adn the accompanying wisdom theology and philosophy…
Once again, thanks, it made a lot of sense to me.
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Transformational Concept)
My own experience of “chi” is recent and I don’t believe it contradicts anything that we believe in the Catholic faith…we believe that God is all, “I Am Who Am” and we breath that “am” in as part of our meditation.
The Eastern methodologies, focus on biological realities of breathing, concentrating on the breath, etc., time honoured and older than Christianity itself is certainly no new age thing…that is rather insulting to the great wisdom of these 5000 year old religions…adn the accompanying wisdom theology and philosophy…
Once again, thanks, it made a lot of sense to me.
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster (Aboriginal Transformational Concept)
X
Xuan
Guest
Hi trickster,
I came across this Daoist writing several years ago and thought you might find it interesting. I used bits of it in my previous post. It sort of poses a bridge between Daoism and other religions.
There was always SOMETHING out there in the deep, mysterious void. IT was ONE. IT was simple when ignored and complex when observed. IT was incomprehensible and without definition. And in its complexity IT was neither “being” nor “non-being;” neither male nor female. IT was without form, and without need of sustenance of any kind. IT knew neither time nor space and yet IT birthed all “being” as yin and all “non-being” as yang. IT was TAO… the Way of Things… the eternal source and sustainer of all things.
…And then there was time and sequence of events, and yin and yang gave birth to the illusion of all division and “being.”
When men began to divide things by naming them, many named IT “God” and gave IT cultural names.
And thus it came to be that…
There are as many names for God as there are tongues to speak them.
There are as many faces of God as there are eyes to behold them.
There are as many paths to God as there are feet to walk them.
No name is the complete name.
No face is the complete face.
No path is the complete path.
Xuan
I came across this Daoist writing several years ago and thought you might find it interesting. I used bits of it in my previous post. It sort of poses a bridge between Daoism and other religions.
There was always SOMETHING out there in the deep, mysterious void. IT was ONE. IT was simple when ignored and complex when observed. IT was incomprehensible and without definition. And in its complexity IT was neither “being” nor “non-being;” neither male nor female. IT was without form, and without need of sustenance of any kind. IT knew neither time nor space and yet IT birthed all “being” as yin and all “non-being” as yang. IT was TAO… the Way of Things… the eternal source and sustainer of all things.
…And then there was time and sequence of events, and yin and yang gave birth to the illusion of all division and “being.”
When men began to divide things by naming them, many named IT “God” and gave IT cultural names.
And thus it came to be that…
There are as many names for God as there are tongues to speak them.
There are as many faces of God as there are eyes to behold them.
There are as many paths to God as there are feet to walk them.
No name is the complete name.
No face is the complete face.
No path is the complete path.
Xuan
I
I_Thirst
Guest
I’d recommend anyone interested in getting a Taoist to talk about religion to read The Cloud Of Unknowing as well as Wisdom Books from the Bible (Proverbs, Psalms, Job, Ecclesiates, Song of Songs, Wisdom) and the Epistle of James. Additionally, Sayings of the Desert Fathers is wonderful.
He may also be interested in apophatic theology.
He may also be interested in apophatic theology.
T
trickster
Guest
Hi Xuan…that fits very well with my thinking about how to reconcile indigenous thinking with Catholicism…I focus on the shared knoweldge held by both traditions and try to see beyond the different words, or different expressions to see wha tis at the heart of humanity’s knowledge of Creator and how we choose to 'name those experiences."
Daoism, actually assists Christianity in its disagreement with new age relativism…if there is one source of creation, then surely humanity can come up with one language about the source of creation and the ordered nature of the universe…keeping in mind the role of “chaos”, “marginality”, contraire and trickster spirits…“disorder within order”, “unity within diversity” all those trickster dynamics and elements that make it difficult to define and describe our world in an oversimplified text.
Look forward to hearing more…maybe we should set up a group that explores this relationship between Eastern religions and Christianity (and find a way to incorporate some thinking about indigenous spirituality)…
Thoughts?
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
Daoism, actually assists Christianity in its disagreement with new age relativism…if there is one source of creation, then surely humanity can come up with one language about the source of creation and the ordered nature of the universe…keeping in mind the role of “chaos”, “marginality”, contraire and trickster spirits…“disorder within order”, “unity within diversity” all those trickster dynamics and elements that make it difficult to define and describe our world in an oversimplified text.
Look forward to hearing more…maybe we should set up a group that explores this relationship between Eastern religions and Christianity (and find a way to incorporate some thinking about indigenous spirituality)…
Thoughts?
Bruce Ferguson
Trickster
X
Xuan
Guest
Hi trickster,
I have to start by saying I don’t really know much about aboriginal religions in general, so I can’t speak to most of them. But even in regards to the idea of coming up with a “common language” between Daoism with Christianity there are some very big stumbling blocks.
One of those blocks is language. Languages often have words for which there is no accurate translation in another language. Another block is that different cultures have different ways of thinking, of approaching things, and these different ways of thinking are what lead to the words with no accurate translation in another language.
Westerners generally seem to think that every concept can be expressed in human words. But they can’t. I can try to explain to you until I’m blue in the face what a tangerine tastes like, but until you’ve tasted one for yourself, you’ll never actually know what one tastes like.
And it’s similar with the concept of God or the Ultimate Reality or whatever. Whatever description we try to give is wrong, because it falls so far short of being accurate. Eastern philosophies/religions seem to realize this and they humbly, and honestly, acknowledge that humans aren’t capable of describing God.
A typical issue is the question of whether God is personal or impersonal. It’s a false dilemma. Philosophically, “person” means “a self-aware, rational being.” (I think they came up with this definition before they knew that some animals have these attributes too). And in the English language, the word “impersonal” carries the connotation of being lower than personal. I would submit that God is neither personal nor impersonal, but rather BEYOND personal. God isn’t limited to depending on reason. Saying that God is personal or rational is anthropomorphizing God, although Christians will vigorously deny it. Of course this is all just my own opinion.
By doing a lot of reading and a lot of thinking, I’ve been able to reconcile many of these things within myself (kind of like actually being able to taste the tangerine), but I can’t really come up with a common word-language. Words are just fingers pointing toward the moon. Until we look beyond the fingers, we’ll never actually see the moon.
I hope some of this made sense to you.
Xuan
I have to start by saying I don’t really know much about aboriginal religions in general, so I can’t speak to most of them. But even in regards to the idea of coming up with a “common language” between Daoism with Christianity there are some very big stumbling blocks.
One of those blocks is language. Languages often have words for which there is no accurate translation in another language. Another block is that different cultures have different ways of thinking, of approaching things, and these different ways of thinking are what lead to the words with no accurate translation in another language.
Westerners generally seem to think that every concept can be expressed in human words. But they can’t. I can try to explain to you until I’m blue in the face what a tangerine tastes like, but until you’ve tasted one for yourself, you’ll never actually know what one tastes like.
And it’s similar with the concept of God or the Ultimate Reality or whatever. Whatever description we try to give is wrong, because it falls so far short of being accurate. Eastern philosophies/religions seem to realize this and they humbly, and honestly, acknowledge that humans aren’t capable of describing God.
A typical issue is the question of whether God is personal or impersonal. It’s a false dilemma. Philosophically, “person” means “a self-aware, rational being.” (I think they came up with this definition before they knew that some animals have these attributes too). And in the English language, the word “impersonal” carries the connotation of being lower than personal. I would submit that God is neither personal nor impersonal, but rather BEYOND personal. God isn’t limited to depending on reason. Saying that God is personal or rational is anthropomorphizing God, although Christians will vigorously deny it. Of course this is all just my own opinion.
By doing a lot of reading and a lot of thinking, I’ve been able to reconcile many of these things within myself (kind of like actually being able to taste the tangerine), but I can’t really come up with a common word-language. Words are just fingers pointing toward the moon. Until we look beyond the fingers, we’ll never actually see the moon.
I hope some of this made sense to you.
Xuan
C
cheese_sdc
Guest
The tao that can be told is not the Eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the Eternal Name.
My experience is that some Taoists have a greater appreciation that Divinity is unknowable.
The name that can be named is not the Eternal Name.
My experience is that some Taoists have a greater appreciation that Divinity is unknowable.
P
Publisher
Guest
The “Tao Te Ching” is one of my favorite spiritual/scripture books of the world. “to name the Tao that can be named is not the Tao.”
God is beyond our human experience…He is named and know in Jesus of Nazareth…“The Word became flesh and dwelled among us.”
God is beyond our human experience…He is named and know in Jesus of Nazareth…“The Word became flesh and dwelled among us.”
D
domandcarols
Guest
Just curious, what is morally liberal?
T
Tomek
Guest
Of all non-Christian religions, I find Toaism most interesting. It’s based on the natural order of world, and in many points agrees with the teaching of Christ. I think this is to be expected, since reflecting on the world around us will lead us to some truth, and the Holy Spirit uses such teachings as a preparation for the Gospel. But at the same time, some teachings of Toaism are rather disturbing, such as those relating to governance. They lend themselves too easily to a tyranical form of rule.
T
trickster
Guest
THANK YOU for your words, couldn’t of said it better than myself…if there is one Creator then all the world’s religions ought to be able to speak the same theology…the Catholic Church has observed the same world and have many similiar ways…I agree with you totally. on this…
Bruce Ferguson
A
amber_lux
Guest
Chinese.
Daoism sees all matter as being part of the original One. Most Daoists don’t consider the issue of whether or not the original one is a supreme being.
Philosophical Daoism is concerned only with the physical world. It considers anything about a deity to be sheer speculation, and as such a waste of time.
Religious Daoism and Chinese Buddhism have a plethora of deities that they share.
Qi is a way of explaining physical phenomena.
Amber
E
Eclogue
Guest
The Tao Teh Ching is one of my favorite philosophical works, and I highly recommend you read it as soon as you get the chance. As the book is not extremely concerned with the existence or nonexistence of a deity, and as it teaches a message of temperance and humility, I don’t see any problem with being a sort of Taoist-Catholic. The Tao is not meant, I think, to be thought of as a god; rather, it is a trend (a “Way,” as it translates) toward balance and order. Whatever is unbalanced or disordered is against Tao, in roughly the same fashion that whatever is gravely sinful is against the natural law. This and many other passages can be interpreted as supporting Christian ideas. There are a few passages that stand out as practically proto-Christian:
“What another has said let me repeat: A man of violence will come to a violent end. Whoever said this can be my teacher and my father.” -Tao Teh Ching
Seems awfully analogous to when Jesus says that those who live by the sword die by the sword. There is also a lot of talk in the Tao about towers being thrown down and valleys filled up and hills levelled and that sort of thing, which should sound familiar. All these similarities seem to suggest that the morality presented by the Tao Teh Ching is not very different from that presented by the gospels, though of course only the gospels contain the mystery of Christ’s death and resurrection. Taoism as a philosophy and Christianity seem perfectly compatible to me.
“What another has said let me repeat: A man of violence will come to a violent end. Whoever said this can be my teacher and my father.” -Tao Teh Ching
Seems awfully analogous to when Jesus says that those who live by the sword die by the sword. There is also a lot of talk in the Tao about towers being thrown down and valleys filled up and hills levelled and that sort of thing, which should sound familiar. All these similarities seem to suggest that the morality presented by the Tao Teh Ching is not very different from that presented by the gospels, though of course only the gospels contain the mystery of Christ’s death and resurrection. Taoism as a philosophy and Christianity seem perfectly compatible to me.
T
Tomek
Guest
Yes but we can’t neglect the effects the Devil, world, and human weakness have had in developing the errors in other religions.
V
Vouthon
Guest
I believe that our Orthodox brethren have already bridged the gap between Taoism and Christianity, in…“Christ the Eternal Tao” by Hieromonk Damascene.
amazon.com/Christ-Eternal-Tao-Hieromonk-Damascene/dp/0938635859
This is one of the best books I have ever read on inculturation.
The Eastern Christian concepton of God as both Essence and Energy, is compatible with chi (although it is a more advanced, Christological understanding of it). The Uncreated Light of God as experienced by Saint Hildegard of Bingen, Blessed John of Ruysbroeck, Saint Teresa of Avila, Saint John of the Cross and most prominently the Eastern Orthodox saints such as Saint Gregory Palamas, Saint Seraphim of Sarov and the Hesychasts of Mount Athos is very compatible with chi.
Lao Tzu was certainly a pre-Christian forerunner and prophet of the Incarnate Logos in China. His teachings about Tao are the Chinese equivalent of the Platonic Greek Logos. It is also a very moral religion - which teaches its followers to adopt a child-like outlook on life, that exalts gentleness and meekness over aggression and strength.
I would encourage every Catholic to read the Tao te Ching alongside the above book.
It is no less important for 21st century Catholics to understand the philosophy of the Tao te Ching than it was for the Church Fathers to understand Platonic philosophy and for Saint Thomas Aquinas to understand the thought of Aristotle and inculturate its insights into Catholic theology so as to enrich Christian thought, which it invariably has.
Catholics today must now do with Taoist and Indian - and I would say also Zoroastrian and Sufi - thought what our forefathers did with Ancient Greek philosophy. The sixteenth century Jesuits Servant of God Matteo Ricci (China) and Fr Robert di Nobili (India) are the Lights of Guidance shinning in our Catholic past that can illuminate for us the Way forward in modern times, in concert with the examples set by Saint Paul in the Book of Acts, the Church Fathers and Saint Thomas Aquinas.
Any New Evangelization must focus on these areas, as well as traditional African religion and its native insights. Christianity is the fastest growing religion in China, Iran, South Korea and many other countries.
Christianity must again become fully open Ad Gentes - to the Nations, and the Church must show itself to be the Sacrament of Unity for all human beings; the House where all nations are welcome with their native cultural and religious insights which are compatible with Christian Truth.
amazon.com/Christ-Eternal-Tao-Hieromonk-Damascene/dp/0938635859
This is one of the best books I have ever read on inculturation.
The Eastern Christian concepton of God as both Essence and Energy, is compatible with chi (although it is a more advanced, Christological understanding of it). The Uncreated Light of God as experienced by Saint Hildegard of Bingen, Blessed John of Ruysbroeck, Saint Teresa of Avila, Saint John of the Cross and most prominently the Eastern Orthodox saints such as Saint Gregory Palamas, Saint Seraphim of Sarov and the Hesychasts of Mount Athos is very compatible with chi.
Lao Tzu was certainly a pre-Christian forerunner and prophet of the Incarnate Logos in China. His teachings about Tao are the Chinese equivalent of the Platonic Greek Logos. It is also a very moral religion - which teaches its followers to adopt a child-like outlook on life, that exalts gentleness and meekness over aggression and strength.
I would encourage every Catholic to read the Tao te Ching alongside the above book.
It is no less important for 21st century Catholics to understand the philosophy of the Tao te Ching than it was for the Church Fathers to understand Platonic philosophy and for Saint Thomas Aquinas to understand the thought of Aristotle and inculturate its insights into Catholic theology so as to enrich Christian thought, which it invariably has.
Catholics today must now do with Taoist and Indian - and I would say also Zoroastrian and Sufi - thought what our forefathers did with Ancient Greek philosophy. The sixteenth century Jesuits Servant of God Matteo Ricci (China) and Fr Robert di Nobili (India) are the Lights of Guidance shinning in our Catholic past that can illuminate for us the Way forward in modern times, in concert with the examples set by Saint Paul in the Book of Acts, the Church Fathers and Saint Thomas Aquinas.
Any New Evangelization must focus on these areas, as well as traditional African religion and its native insights. Christianity is the fastest growing religion in China, Iran, South Korea and many other countries.
Christianity must again become fully open Ad Gentes - to the Nations, and the Church must show itself to be the Sacrament of Unity for all human beings; the House where all nations are welcome with their native cultural and religious insights which are compatible with Christian Truth.
V
Vouthon
Guest
As Pope John Paul II said in his encyclical “Redemptoris Missio”:
“…Peoples everywhere, open the doors to Christ! His Gospel in no way detracts from the human person’s freedom, from the respect that is owed to every culture and to whatever is good in each religion. By accepting Christ, you open yourselves to the definitive Word of God, to the One in whom God has made himself fully known and has shown us the path to himself…The Church opens the doors and becomes the house which all may enter, and in which all can feel at home, while keeping their own cultures and [religious] traditions, provided these are not contrary to the Gospel…Under the impulse of the Spirit, the Christian faith is decisively opened to the “nations”…It is the Spirit who is the source of the drive to press on, not only geographically but also beyond the frontiers of race and religion, for a truly universal mission…The Spirit’s presence and activity affect not only the individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions. Indeed, the Spirit is at the origin of the noble ideals and undertakings which benefit humanity on its journey through history…”
Catholics, and indeed all Christians, must fully awaken to the Universal Mission which lies ahead of us in the 21st century. We need a new set of highly intelligent, sensitive missionaries who are learned in the sacred scriptures, languages, philosophies and traditions of the world’s nations and religions, so as to move the world towards Pax Christi (the Peace of Christ) and Pace Fidei (the Peace of Faith).
“…Peoples everywhere, open the doors to Christ! His Gospel in no way detracts from the human person’s freedom, from the respect that is owed to every culture and to whatever is good in each religion. By accepting Christ, you open yourselves to the definitive Word of God, to the One in whom God has made himself fully known and has shown us the path to himself…The Church opens the doors and becomes the house which all may enter, and in which all can feel at home, while keeping their own cultures and [religious] traditions, provided these are not contrary to the Gospel…Under the impulse of the Spirit, the Christian faith is decisively opened to the “nations”…It is the Spirit who is the source of the drive to press on, not only geographically but also beyond the frontiers of race and religion, for a truly universal mission…The Spirit’s presence and activity affect not only the individuals but also society and history, peoples, cultures and religions. Indeed, the Spirit is at the origin of the noble ideals and undertakings which benefit humanity on its journey through history…”
Catholics, and indeed all Christians, must fully awaken to the Universal Mission which lies ahead of us in the 21st century. We need a new set of highly intelligent, sensitive missionaries who are learned in the sacred scriptures, languages, philosophies and traditions of the world’s nations and religions, so as to move the world towards Pax Christi (the Peace of Christ) and Pace Fidei (the Peace of Faith).
P
Publisher
Guest
I read somone asked Lao Tzu what one does when one achieves enlightment…before…chop wood carry water…after enlightenmen…chop wood carry water."
I guess both work however.
V
Vouthon
Guest
I read somone asked Lao Tzu what one does when one achieves enlightment…before…chop wood carry water…after enlightenmen…chop wood carry water."
I guess both work however.
I just love Lao Tzu’s wisdom and insight.This is very similar to what the great Catholic Dominican Mystic Meister Eckhart said back in the 1200s:
‘If one were in an ecstasy, even if it were as high as that of Paul, and knew that beside him there was an infirm man who needed a bowl of soup from him, it would be better for him to abandon his ecstasy and serve the needy man’
P
Publisher
Guest
I like Stephen Mitchell’s translation of the Tao Te Ching…“To name the Eternal is not the Eternal”
This is very similar to what the great Catholic Dominican Mystic Meister Eckhart said back in the 1200s:
‘If one were in an ecstasy, even if it were as high as that of Paul, and knew that beside him there was an infirm man who needed a bowl of soup from him, it would be better for him to abandon his ecstasy and serve the needy man’
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