Tawheed

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hawk:
I curious too, about these prayers of the pagans, and also the questions of the pagans.
As well as the rebuttals of Allah to the pagans.

I expect a narration with at least some chain of isnad.

If you bring proof, I expect to see its veracity
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Have you read the Quran? The rebuttals are clearly there! i will not post them, look for yourself.

but as for the pagan prayer…here you go.

it is reported in SAHIH MUSLIM

Ibn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) reported that the **polytheists ** also pronounced (Talbiya) as: Here I am at Thy service, there is no associate with Thee. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Woe be upon them, as they also said: But one associate with Thee, you possess mastery over him, but he does not possess mastery (over you). They used to say this and circumambulate the Ka’ba.

so in reality, they ascribed no power to the idols except that it came from God…very similar to the ideas presented on this thread
 
so in reality, they ascribed no power to the idols except that it came from God…very similar to the ideas presented on this thread
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Faith101: It doesn’t say that they did not believe that these gods had godly powers seperate from God, only that they believed that God was greater than them. This is extremely different from what Christians say regarding the saints and eachother. We don’t believe that saints have any non-human attributes at all. You are reading into the descriptions things that aren’t there.

Furthermore, I don’t have time to read the whole Quran just find a few rebuttals. At the very least post the number of the verses in question. If you can’t do this, then simply concede the point, because and argument without evidence can be rejected without evidence.
 
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Ghosty:
Faith101: It doesn’t say that they did not believe that these gods had godly powers seperate from God, only that they believed that God was greater than them. This is extremely different from what Christians say regarding the saints and eachother. We don’t believe that saints have any non-human attributes at all. You are reading into the descriptions things that aren’t there.

Furthermore, I don’t have time to read the whole Quran just find a few rebuttals. At the very least post the number of the verses in question. If you can’t do this, then simply concede the point, because and argument without evidence can be rejected without evidence.
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it states clearly that they believed that God possessed mastery over the idols/saints etc and that the idols did not possess any mastery over Him. That means that nothing they did was better than anything God did. He owned them and their powers.

If you read more into the pagan people on that time, you will see that that ws the mentatlity. There are other verses in the Quran that discuss their belief. They would be asked “who is your creator?” they would say “Allah” they would be asked “who created the skies and the earth” they would say “Allah”

some of them did not attribute innate divine power to these idols. when asked why they even bothered with the idols, they replied two reasons
  1. they are our intercessors with God
  2. they bring us closer to God
InshAllah (God willing) i will go through and list the rebuttals…i wouldnt be able to list them all but i will address the issue at hand. Tomorrow or at the latest friday inshALlah…this forum is becoming a full time job 🙂
 
it states clearly that they believed that God possessed mastery over the idols/saints etc and that the idols did not possess any mastery over Him. That means that nothing they did was better than anything God did. He owned them and their powers.
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Being worse at something that God does, and being subservant to Him does not indicate that the pagans did not believe that they had qualities unique to God, such as power over the weather. The fact that they did not have as much power means nothing, because that is something that only God can control, and they would be rightly chastised for believing otherwise.

We don’t believe the saints have any powers besides the ability to offer prayers to God, which is a human power. We attribute only human powers to our saints. Attributing human things to humans is hardly the same as submitting to supernatural beings. The pagan gods had never even lived, and were either demons, or figments of their imagination. The saints are real people, and we’re asking nothing more of them than their humanity allows.

You don’t have to post the rebuttals, just the verse numbers. I’m more than happy to look them up myself if that’s what you prefer.
 
Allah says**, “so surely, you cannot make the dead nor the deaf hear the supplication”** (30:52)

Have they taken others as intercessors besides Allâh? Say: “Even if they have power over nothing whatever and have no intelligence?” (Az-Zumar 39:43)

**And they worship besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: “These are our intercessors with Allâh.” Say: “Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?” Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him! ** (Yunus 10:18)

The point is that calling upon or supplicating to other than God is something God refers to as associating partners with other than Him. Rather God calls on his creation to call upon and supplicate Him alone, and not direct this type of act to other than Him because He is the only one deserving it. Ofcourse God can allow the dead to hear us, but he has not allowed this. Rather He is the Only Being that can hear all of his servants. So if we truely are servants of God and if we truely seek His love and seek nearness to Him, we must direct our acts of calling and supplication to Him alone and not put others as rivals with Him in these acts.
 
I tried to patiently read this thread, but towards the end (the last 10?) i didn’t read, I just am called to once again say…

If we don’t understand eachother’s definition of “WORDS” then we will never HEAR each other with out ears, and the HEART won’t listen to what the EARS do not listen!!!

DEAD - A. Muslim definition, the dead are those who have died and are lying in the ground sleeping until Judgement day!

DEAD - Christians (Catholic Christians) definition of the dead are two fold!!!
A-Same definition from the Muslims
B-The children of God who have found to be worthy in God’s eys, who have done the will of the Lord and are in Paradise aren’t DEAD, they are ALIVE. Their flesh is dead (except for a few whose body’s are glorified alread) in the ground, but their soul are ALIVE in Paradise and are united with GOD. Abraham isn’t DEAD, but ALIVE in God. So is Moses not Dead, but Alive in God. They appeared with Jesus in front of Peter and John and James, and God said that He is God of the LIVING, not the DEAD!!!

So, to my brothers and sister Muslims, you are correct, if one has died, and wasn’t worthy of being in Paradise with Jesus (like the one thief on the cross next to Jesus) then they are waiting for judgement day, and to pray to them is not God’s Will.
All of this and much more is what we mean with the COMMUNION OF THE SAINTS. We don’t beleve they are dead as per definition A, but are alive as per definition B.

God is God of the Living, not the Dead!

Peace,
your brother,
Luigi
 
My assertion is lost 😦

What we wished to say is simply that

Christians do not in any way limit the power and glory of God.

And all worship is directed to The Father, The Son and the The Holy Spirit.

Christianity ** is not ** Islam.

So it hardly matters whether islam defines dead people as one way or another.

The point is, Christians only worship God.

Their prayer is only directed to God, and they ask for intercession.

It is the same as the wedding at cana.

We have the sunnah of Mary, we simply follow it.
 
Hashi Al-Eritre:
The point is that calling upon or supplicating to other than God is something God refers to as associating partners with other than Him. Rather God calls on his creation to call upon and supplicate Him alone, and not direct this type of act to other than Him because He is the only one deserving it. Ofcourse God can allow the dead to hear us, but he has not allowed this. Rather He is the Only Being that can hear all of his servants. So if we truely are servants of God and if we truely seek His love and seek nearness to Him, we must direct our acts of calling and supplication to Him alone and not put others as rivals with Him in these acts.
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I agree completely with this, except the part about communication with those of the next world.

I have heard of too many miracles to question this.
 
Perhaps I will reply tomorrow after reading this thread in full. But hawk’s statement was just too much to skip by. After Emaad gave a direct refutation of intercession from the Quraan, here’s hawk’s statement:

“I disagree, invocation for intercession is completely acceptable, the miracles we continue to experience as Christians bear witness to it.”

So I guess that’s the end of the discussion road on this subject. Hawk had tried to argue back and forth. But with all the refutations from the Quraan, his final answer is, “well, I’ve seen to many miracles as a result of intercession…thus it must be acceptable.”

So I wonder what hawk says to Hindu’s when they swear that they have seen miracles when asking various gods for help. So when polytheists ask one of their many gods for help, and request was favorably answered, according to hawk’s logic, this makes polytheism correct!

What an emotional testimony hawk! Good job. So any religion that claims miracles is TRUE!

Well, we do not play these games in Islaam. Allaah has addressed interecession clearly:

“To Allaah belongs all the intercession.”

“And they WORSHIP besides Allâh things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: ‘These are our intercessors with Allâh.’ Say: ‘Do you inform Allâh of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?’ Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him!” (Yunus 10:18)
 
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jcaz:
So I guess that’s the end of the discussion road on this subject. Hawk had tried to argue back and forth. But with all the refutations from the Quraan, his final answer is, “well, I’ve seen to many miracles as a result of intercession…thus it must be acceptable.”

So I wonder what hawk says to Hindu’s when they swear that they have seen miracles when asking various gods for help. So when polytheists ask one of their many gods for help, and request was favorably answered, according to hawk’s logic, this makes polytheism correct!
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Where are these miracles of healing and apparitions you speak of in hinduism?

The apparitions and miracles of Mary are well documented.

On the other hand we do not accept the Quran as valid scripture, it is simply the mumblings of a man.

Given the choice between the two I think we know what to choose.

Also the miracles come with messages to worship Jesus Christ.

If I see two different sets of teachings, one of them is backed by evidence, the other only claims to be the truth, but has not evidence.

Which should I believe?

Finally muslims ask others to make a du’a for them, so they are not following the Quran, and niether was the prophet when he made du’a for the ummah.
 
Where are these miracles of healing and apparitions you speak of in hinduism?
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C’mon hawk. Do not play games. ALL religions claim to have miracles of healing. There are obviously “miracles” that occur to people of all faiths, from Christians and Muslims, to Buddhists and Hindus. And all of them attempt this emotional ploy

“We must have the truth. Look at these miracles.”
On the other hand we do not accept the Quran as valid scripture, it is simply the mumblings of a man.
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Insulting Islaam. Okay, that is your choice.

So I just want to be kept in the loop, it that’s okay hawk, for when you accept all religions of the world. it will sure be one heck of a conversion story! I’d be especially interested in how you juggle the beliefs of all of them. Good luck.
 
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jcaz:
C’mon hawk. Do not play games. ALL religions claim to have miracles of healing. There are obviously “miracles” that occur to people of all faiths, from Christians and Muslims, to Buddhists and Hindus. And all of them attempt this emotional ploy

“We must have the truth. Look at these miracles.”
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Where are they, show me proof friend, please show me these islamic miracles.

I am waiting…waiting…one healing, one apparition.

Now dont get me wrong, I am not saying that Gods miracles only come to Christians, I would not presume to speak that way about God.

However, I have not seen a faith, with so many documented miracles and divine testaments to the faith.
Insulting Islaam. Okay, that is your choice.
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So I just want to be kept in the loop, it that’s okay hawk, for when you accept all religions of the world. it will sure be one heck of a conversion story! I’d be especially interested in how you juggle the beliefs of all of them. Good luck.
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I am not insulting islam, I am calling it like it is.

what else?
 
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Ghosty:
Bumping this thread for the sake of r.gonzales.
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For all those on the forum who are unfamiliar with the concept of Tawheed…they will think Hawk’s defintions are legitimate. They are not.

What he does is take a word that explains tawheed and twist and turn it to give it other meanings. and then claims that Christianity is following the concept. IT is not. and it is honestly nothing more than laughable for someone to claim that it is.

This tactic will work with a bunch of catholics who know nothing about Islam…but its silly to use in a room with Muslims.
 
wow, talk about semantics and word play…

really, all that needs to be said regarding the claims and doubts presented throughout this thread by those who think they understand tawheed (i.e., hawk and crew) has already been mentioned by ash-shaikh muhammad bin 'abdil-wahhaab in his treatise kashf ash-shubuhaat (unveiling the doubts).

i’ll try to find a translation of the main text online somewhere, if not, i’ll post a link to an explanation of it that exists in pdf format.
 
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