Tax Census

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Faith1960

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I have another question. I’m confused about the Biblical account where it states that there was a census at the time of Jesus’ birth when according to historians, this was impossible. Here’s an article I just read and wanted some feedback on. Is this correct? Are there any solid explanations for the discrepency or is the Gospel wrong?

blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/jesus/quirinius.htm

The last paragraph in the article states something I hope is false. “The bottom line here is that the apologists’ resolution to this issue ultimately relies on a lot of instances of, “It could have happened this way” with little if any supporting evidence and in the face of considerable evidence to the contrary.”
Explanations, anyone? :confused:
 
I have another question. I’m confused about the Biblical account where it states that there was a census at the time of Jesus’ birth when according to historians, this was impossible. Here’s an article I just read and wanted some feedback on. Is this correct? Are there any solid explanations for the discrepency or is the Gospel wrong?

blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/jesus/quirinius.htm

The last paragraph in the article states something I hope is false. “The bottom line here is that the apologists’ resolution to this issue ultimately relies on a lot of instances of, “It could have happened this way” with little if any supporting evidence and in the face of considerable evidence to the contrary.”
Explanations, anyone? :confused:
Here you go:
In the May/June 2004 article of This Rock Magazine, the following was written about this “mistake”:

Such charges are dismissed easily. Jesus was most likely born in 6 B.C., a year that featured the confluence of Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn—something that occurs only every 800 years. So it was not Matthew who erred but rather a sixth-century scholar who fixed Jesus’ birth approximately six years after the actual event. Although Roman records locate Quirinius’s governorship in later years, Quirinius was a leading general active in the area north of Palestine, and there was a changing of governors in 6 B.C. Quirinius may have served as acting governor between terms, even if only for a few months. As for the possibility of Jesus going north in order to go south, he might have done so in order to transact business, visit friends, or take advantage of special modes of transportation to Jerusalem. Besides, Jewish authorities were plotting to take his life, and direct routes would not have been the safest to take.
 
Here you go:
In the May/June 2004 article of This Rock Magazine, the following was written about this “mistake”:

Such charges are dismissed easily. Jesus was most likely born in 6 B.C., a year that featured the confluence of Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn—something that occurs only every 800 years. So it was not Matthew who erred but rather a sixth-century scholar who fixed Jesus’ birth approximately six years after the actual event. Although Roman records locate Quirinius’s governorship in later years, Quirinius was a leading general active in the area north of Palestine, and there was a changing of governors in 6 B.C. Quirinius may have served as acting governor between terms, even if only for a few months. As for the possibility of Jesus going north in order to go south, he might have done so in order to transact business, visit friends, or take advantage of special modes of transportation to Jerusalem. Besides, Jewish authorities were plotting to take his life, and direct routes would not have been the safest to take.
Is there any evidence to support that? The comment at the end of the article is what I find a little troubling. <<<< “The bottom line here is that the apologists’ resolution to this issue ultimately relies on a lot of instances of, “It could have happened this way” with little if any supporting evidence and in the face of considerable evidence to the contrary.” >>>>
 
I researched this in my commentaries, most notably two respected Catholic Commentaries that I have, the Jerome Biblical Commentary and Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (note Jerome Biblical Commentary did not comment on this).

In both cases, the historical inaccuracy challenge is cited - both indicating that the historical facts given are somewhat problematic.

Collegeville’s in the most succint. This is a touchy area that many will dispute, but the Bible is inerrant in that which God intends to convey through inspired writing; most people equate that to faith, morals, and salvation plans. The Bible is NOT inerrant in science and history. This has been very clearly stated in council documents that have been cited on this site if you search. I can pull them out if you need. In short, an interpretation of the Bible where every word is considered inerrant is a fundamentalist view not supported by the Catholic Church.

So what did Collegeville say?

The census under Quirinius has caused much debate. Quirinius did not become governor in Syria until a.d. 6; shortly afterward he conducted the census in Judea that provoked the rebellion of Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37). If Jesus’ birth is situated during the reign of Herod the Great (Luke 1:5), it cannot have taken place during this census several years later. Among the various solutions proposed, the most satisfactory views Luke as associating a number of loosely related historical events around the time of Jesus’ birth in order to fix its context in the minds of his readers, without intending ironclad accuracy. The precise dating of these remote Judean events cannot have been too important to Greeks of the Empire seventy or eighty years later. But the realization that Palestine was part of the Syrian province at the time of Jesus’ birth might bring those events closer to Luke’s readers in Antioch, the center of the church’s missionary thrust in his time.%between% %between%
I do not have an electronic version of Catholic Commentary, but it builds the case why there is historical precedent and motive for a census in Syria at that time, and it also says "It has long been admitted by responsible scholars that Quirinius twice held authority in Syria, the first time in conjunction with Sentius Saturninus, 9-6 BC, and there is documentary evidence in favor of this (cf. Lagr. S. Luc 65-6). It goes on with a much longer explanation of the time to do the census vs. the rules of Quirinius and Herod). It concludes by saying "In conclusion it may be said that a writer of proved carefulness like Luke would not have been guilty of such an error as could easily been detected by those for whom he wrote.

So two different theories, underlying the fact that the Bible is not a History book but must explain events of time as necessary for the reader ot understand God’s purpose.

BTW Catholic Commentary is very large and excellent, you can usually find it sold used at places like abebooks.com since it is out of print. Jimmy Akin uses it all the time and mentions it on CA Live.
 
I researched this in my commentaries, most notably two respected Catholic Commentaries that I have, the Jerome Biblical Commentary and Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture (note Jerome Biblical Commentary did not comment on this).

In both cases, the historical inaccuracy challenge is cited - both indicating that the historical facts given are somewhat problematic.

Collegeville’s in the most succint. This is a touchy area that many will dispute, but the Bible is inerrant in that which God intends to convey through inspired writing; most people equate that to faith, morals, and salvation plans. The Bible is NOT inerrant in science and history. This has been very clearly stated in council documents that have been cited on this site if you search. I can pull them out if you need. In short, an interpretation of the Bible where every word is considered inerrant is a fundamentalist view not supported by the Catholic Church.

So what did Collegeville say?

The census under Quirinius has caused much debate. Quirinius did not become governor in Syria until a.d. 6; shortly afterward he conducted the census in Judea that provoked the rebellion of Judas the Galilean (Acts 5:37). If Jesus’ birth is situated during the reign of Herod the Great (Luke 1:5), it cannot have taken place during this census several years later. Among the various solutions proposed, the most satisfactory views Luke as associating a number of loosely related historical events around the time of Jesus’ birth in order to fix its context in the minds of his readers, without intending ironclad accuracy. The precise dating of these remote Judean events cannot have been too important to Greeks of the Empire seventy or eighty years later. But the realization that Palestine was part of the Syrian province at the time of Jesus’ birth might bring those events closer to Luke’s readers in Antioch, the center of the church’s missionary thrust in his time.%between% %between%
I do not have an electronic version of Catholic Commentary, but it builds the case why there is historical precedent and motive for a census in Syria at that time, and it also says "It has long been admitted by responsible scholars that Quirinius twice held authority in Syria, the first time in conjunction with Sentius Saturninus, 9-6 BC, and there is documentary evidence in favor of this (cf. Lagr. S. Luc 65-6). It goes on with a much longer explanation of the time to do the census vs. the rules of Quirinius and Herod). It concludes by saying "In conclusion it may be said that a writer of proved carefulness like Luke would not have been guilty of such an error as could easily been detected by those for whom he wrote.

So two different theories, underlying the fact that the Bible is not a History book but must explain events of time as necessary for the reader ot understand God’s purpose.

BTW Catholic Commentary is very large and excellent, you can usually find it sold used at places like abebooks.com since it is out of print. Jimmy Akin uses it all the time and mentions it on CA Live.
I’m having a :::::whoosh:::::::: moment. Can you please say that again in English? 🙂
 
You asked for evidence - that’s what the Commentaries say.

Short reply (without evidence) - noted biblical scholars have plausible thoughts on what really happened. Add to that the Bible is not inerrant on things like history and science.
 
You asked for evidence - that’s what the Commentaries say.

Short reply (without evidence) - noted biblical scholars have plausible thoughts on what really happened. Add to that the Bible is not inerrant on things like history and science.
Then how can we be certain that the historical events of Jesus’ life, his message or really anything the Bible says, be accurate?
Doesn’t that leave a lot of room for the possibility that what we believe is false or exaggerated?
 
Because the Church has said that the Bible is inerrant with regard to faith, morals, and salvation. The specifics of a given historical episode may not be accurate but that’s not relevant to Jesus’ message. It’s just like if we were writing inspired scripture under the guidance of the Holy Spirit today,. and we wrote it was raining cats and dogs. For someone 2000 years from now to get upset about that scientific inaccuracy misses the point.

So, to believe everything in the Bible is inerrant is not only not Catholic teaching but it is what Bible fundamentalists believe and is very prone to serious error.

Here are some references to back this up.

You can find This Rock on this site:

“The Bible is not making scientific (historical) assertions and we will draw erroneous conclusions if we treat the text as though it were.”

References:

Dei Verbum 11
CCC 337,283
“The Accuracy of Scripture”, Dec. 2005 This Rock

There is at least one other papal document I know of – Pope Pius XII wrote an encyclical in 1943 called Divino Afflante Spiritu. He said among other things, that there are statements in the Bible that are purely figurative, illustrative and must be understood as figures of speech.

St. Augustine also taught this. He said that the parables of our Lord are not necessarily taken from actual events, though in many cases it is quite probably that they were.
Here is another good article for you, and the various ways the Bible can be interpreted. It is on EWTN’s web site. One important sentence in it:

*“When it is a question of a story, the literal sense does not necessarily imply belief that the facts recounted actually took place, for a story need not belong to the genre of history but be instead a work of imaginative fiction.”

*ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.HTM

There seem to be quite a number of other things on the Internet on this topic. I came across a story about the Bishops of England from last fall, outlining yet another document released by the Church. In summary:
*
The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true. **The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible. *

*“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in ***The Gift of Scripture. timesonline.co.uk/article…811332,00.html
That document is online, it’s only about 60 pages. Article 13 or so has the best parts you will be interested in. Here’s an excerpt that states as specifically as possible what I have been trying to say:

It is important to note this teaching of the Second Vatican Council that the truth of Scripture is to be found in all that is written down ‘for the sake of our salvation’. We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters. We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision.

catholic-ew.org.uk/public…ure%20text.pdf

This document is released by the bishops, built on Dei Verbum, which is Dogma from Vatican II. This is the teaching of the Church.

I hope this helps - God bless you.
 
I hope this helps - God bless you.
It does, thanks. This conversation has me wondering about some friends of ours who were once Catholic and left the Church for a very literalist, non denominational church. All I know is that they were both married to others, divorced and couldn’t get annulments. I can’t imagine how they could take the leap from Catholicism to where they are now.

Before my return to the Church, they were always inviting my husband and I to their church for services or various functions but we always declined.

My husband, who’s not Catholic, and I were married in a civil ceremony almost 22 years ago. We had to go through that ceremony this spring in order for me to receive Holy Communion. (I can’t remember what it’s called) Just before our ceremony we were sitting in church waiting for the priest while my cousin and I were discussing confession and how I needed to go. I joked that the priest probably wouldn’t have time to listen to me since I racked up 20+ years of sins. These friends were guests of ours at the “wedding” and one of them, the wife, leaned in and said, with a smile, that I didn’t have to confess to anyone except Jesus. I was really offended. That was not the time or the place for her comment, plus she used to be Catholic herself. :mad:
 
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