Taxi Driver Dilemma

[LemonAndLime]

And keep you from be an accomplice to the death of the Child. Your logic that she would just get another ride is on the same lines as the a german soldier in WWII says I was just doing my job and if I had not they would have found someone else to do it and I would have been killed to. Did not work for them does not work for the cab driver in this case.

No its not. They cannot be compared because this taxi driver scenario does not involve the possibility of you losing your own life if you don’t drive her there. The fear for your own survival blinds you.

I would drive her there and speak to her about why shes having an abortion, and offer to drive her to a family planning centre instead where they could offer her information. If she refuses to listen to you, and says that if you do not take her she will get someone else to do it - what good would refusing do? All it would do is make you feel a bit better while you have accomplished nothing and lost everything. If you refuse, you may lose your job and fail to protect/look after your own family.

At the end of the day, the best thing you can do is try to talk her out of it. Then you have done the best possible thing to try to save the life of the baby. Just refusing to take her there will no doubt turn her mind even further against keeping her baby, especially if you disclosed why you won’t take her. If she’s the kind of pro-choice “feminist” you are describing, refusing will no doubt validate her position that refusing abortion is an campaign against on her own “rights”.

To be honest, refusing to take here there doesn’t do anything to stop her going through with it. Refusing to take her their is basically syaing “I refuse to deal with this or get involved, so I will turn a blind eye.” - Just like some WW2 Germans who turned their eye and pretended not to notice when Jews started going missing? I know you’re not quite “turning a blind eye”, but by refusing to get involved, you’re definately not making an effort to stop it happen.

 

[adv1sor]

Consider, perhaps, that God has placed you in this woman’s path for a purpose. I wouldn’t just tell her no.

I wouldn’t use the case for a political or moral statement.

I would, (I hope I would anyway), let her know about all the support and help that is available to her. I would call someone for her and offer to take her to where she, and her baby, could get all the help they needed.

I hope that’s what I would do.

I pray it is.

 

[Big_Dummy]

By most abortion clincs there is a pro-life ministry. You drop her off there and tell her in good conscience you can’t drop her off at the abortion mill. And, that the ride is on the house. And, yes you try to talk her out of it during the ride from the angle of informing her of those who are willing to help her get on her feet.

 

[JRKH]

To those who bring up losing ones job in this matter.
Christ has told us not to worry about such matters. We must do what is right in his eyes and trust that all will be well. If the cabby job is lost over this, trust that God will place you in another job quickly.
Each and every one of us can come up with some scenerio where we would be required to either risk, or outright leave a job based on a moral principle. This one is no different.

When all the quibbling over details is said and done, I’d have to ask myself this…Is driving this woman to the abortion clinic for the expressed purpose of killing her baby, the Loving thing to do? Does it show the proper Love for the child? For her? For yourself? For God?

It would be perfectly acceptable to drive around while talking to her. It would be perfectly acceptable to take her to a crisis pregancy center or some other pro-life facility that can help her out. During this time you are not facilitating the abortion.

If she tells me to just “shut-up and drive”, no matter how nicely, it changes my position from one of councilor to facilitator. At that point I must tell her that I cannot, in good conscience, take her to that place, for that purpose. Then look for someplace safe to drop her off.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Because the civil law is the way it is, there are a number of options readily available to you as well as certain liabilities that may be incurred.

There are civil liabilites and moral ones. The moral ones apply equally in both cases. The moral liability in either case is to endanger one’s soul. The civil liabilities pale in comparison.

Understand, I am not trying to equivocate the civil and moral. I just see that the situation is different because of the civil laws.

Yes I realize this, but turning to the civil aspect only clouds the issue, which is a moral one. Morally speaking, If you would be willing to take the woman to the abortion clinic you should be equally willing to her to the docks. If you are not willing to take her to the docks, then you shoul dnot be willing to take her to the abortion clinic.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The big difference is that the legal system will help you help the person planning suicide. In the original dilemma, the legal system guarantees the passanger the right to have the abortion, and losing your job will in all likelyhood do nothing to change her mind about the abortion, but will prevent you from fulfilling your own duties towards your family (providing for them).

What the legal system, health system or any other would do is not relevant to the morality of the action.

As for you last comment, " but will prevent you from fulfilling your own duties towards your family", how strong is your faith?

25 "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or’What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well. 34 "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day’s own trouble be sufficient for the day. (Mt 6:25-34)

Do you trust in God’s promises?

Peace
James

 

[vz71]

Yes I realize this, but turning to the civil aspect only clouds the issue, which is a moral one. Morally speaking, If you would be willing to take the woman to the abortion clinic you should be equally willing to her to the docks. If you are not willing to take her to the docks, then you shoul dnot be willing to take her to the abortion clinic.

Quite.

And I would not take her to the clinic.
But the civil law being what it is, I have a ready out that could be exercised that would allow preservation of my job should I be confronted with the possible suicide.

In fact, I could likely be commended by the state for calling the police on the possible suicide.
Whereas the state would likely condemn me and I could lose my job for refusing the woman a ride to the abortion mill.

The big difference here being the consequences that I as a cab driver would face for refusal of the fares.

 

[CuriousInIL]

And keep you from be an accomplice to the death of the Child. Your logic that she would just get another ride is on the same lines as the a german soldier in WWII says I was just doing my job and if I had not they would have found someone else to do it and I would have been killed to. Did not work for them does not work for the cab driver in this case.

Do you have a citation to a legitimate source showing that the Church found the German soldier’s actions sinful?

 

[Neil_Anthony]

What the legal system, health system or any other would do is not relevant to the morality of the action.

Surely you don’t mean this as a general rule, that what the legal system will do never affects morality? If that was true, then telling a police officer that your neighbour has Jews living in his attic would be morally equivalent in Nazi Germany and today in the USA? It makes no sense.

As for you last comment, " but will prevent you from fulfilling your own duties towards your family", how strong is your faith?

25 "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat or what you shall drink, nor about your body, what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add one cubit to his span of life? 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin; 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O men of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or’What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek all these things; and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things shall be yours as well. 34 "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Let the day’s own trouble be sufficient for the day. (Mt 6:25-34)

Do you trust in God’s promises?

Well, my problem is that I have trouble coming up with practical answers from general ideas. I can imagine myself doing things to two extremes, and I’m not sure what the happy medium is. I imagine someone so rigid that gets fired from job after job, first for refusing to drive people to abortion clinics, then for refusing to drive people to a strip bar, then for refusing to drive people to any bar with a reputation for partying, then for refusing to drive them to movie theaters if the movie has immoral content, then refusing to drive people anywhere on Sunday other than to a catholic church. I just see a continuum there, with no obvious way of knowing where to draw the line. At some point, the person is courageous and moral, but at some point he becomes too rigid.

 

[kbwall]

You might have a point about morality if refusing to drive her would actually accomplish anything. But it wouldn’t. All it would do is make her angry, and she would simply find another ride, and the baby is dead all the same.

With the suicidal guy, it actually would help. If I were to refuse him a ride and then called the cops, he would get therapy, and then his life can be saved. Whereas with the pregnant woman, the state would do nothing except maybe get me fired, since getting an abortion is legal in America, and she would find another ride. Nothing accomplished, no life is saved, all that happened was me throwing my job out the window. Not exactly a parallel.

 

[JRKH]

You might have a point about morality if refusing to drive her would actually accomplish anything. But it wouldn’t. All it would do is make her angry, and she would simply find another ride, and the baby is dead all the same.

With the suicidal guy, it actually would help. If I were to refuse him a ride and then called the cops, he would get therapy, and then his life can be saved. Whereas with the pregnant woman, the state would do nothing except maybe get me fired, since getting an abortion is legal in America, and she would find another ride. Nothing accomplished, no life is saved, all that happened was me throwing my job out the window. Not exactly a parallel.

Well I assume that the point of this thread is about the proper moral and ethical decision with the primary concern being your soul rather than where your next meal comes from.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Surely you don’t mean this as a general rule, that what the legal system will do never affects morality? If that was true, then telling a police officer that your neighbour has Jews living in his attic would be morally equivalent in Nazi Germany and today in the USA? It makes no sense.

Having read through this a couple of times I’m not sure of the point…The whole Nazi comparison an entirely different subject.

As a general rule, civil law in this country is pretty moral and thus there is no real problem. Where it is not moral, as in the case of abortion on demand, one must consider what Christ would wish us to do, regardless of the civil consequences.

Well, my problem is that I have trouble coming up with practical answers from general ideas. I can imagine myself doing things to two extremes, and I’m not sure what the happy medium is. I imagine someone so rigid that gets fired from job after job, first for refusing to drive people to abortion clinics, then for refusing to drive people to a strip bar, then for refusing to drive people to any bar with a reputation for partying, then for refusing to drive them to movie theaters if the movie has immoral content, then refusing to drive people anywhere on Sunday other than to a catholic church. I just see a continuum there, with no obvious way of knowing where to draw the line. At some point, the person is courageous and moral, but at some point he becomes too rigid.

Sounds like this fellow needs another line of work…

Seriously though, I agree that it can be hard to find practical answers, or perhaps more accurately, answers that will allow us to walk the fine line between sinner and saint…and to be completely honest, I’m not sure how I well I would do if confronted with this situation.
The best I can do is to state how I hope Iwould act - What I hope I would have the courage to do.
Then, if I failed in my courage, I would feel the need go to confession and confess my complicity in the death of that child.

Peace
James

 

[TheWatcher]

It would be perfectly acceptable to drive around while talking to her. It would be perfectly acceptable to take her to a crisis pregancy center or some other pro-life facility that can help her out. During this time you are not facilitating the abortion.

While dropping them off at a pro-life clinic may sound like a good idea on the surface, there are other things to consider before taking someone somewhere against their will.

Your passenger may feel uncomfortable in a new part of town. She might not know she is safe there. You may be inadvertently putting her in danger as well. You may know this is a safe area, but she doesn’t necessarily. You might know that two streets over, the neighborhood starts getting pretty shady. She may stumble down that street without knowing. You don’t know if she has enough money for a cab to get back to where she wanted to end up or enough to make it to her destination.

And even “driving around” but not towards any real destination would be a fearful situation, if she knew enough to know that you’re not driving her towards the clinic. What are you doing? Are you some sick maniac thats going to do something to her? Obviously, you wouldn’t tell her that, so any assurances you could offer would be pointless.

I would argue that declining to take her to her destination is a better response, or taking her to where she asked while talking to her about your philosophy would also be a good response. Offering to take her to a pro-life clinic and then leaving the choice up to her would even be fine- so long as you’re going to take her to the original clinic if she declines your offer.

 

[kbwall]

Well I assume that the point of this thread is about the proper moral and ethical decision with the primary concern being your soul rather than where your next meal comes from.

Peace
James

It’s a question of morality and practicality, and I answered it realistically.

And worrying about where you next meal comes from can be a moral matter if you have others depending on you.

 

[vz71]

Well I assume that the point of this thread is about the proper moral and ethical decision with the primary concern being your soul rather than where your next meal comes from.

Peace
James

It is.

But the OP placed the question of morality against where the next meal comes from.

The example does not.

It is the difference between a $5.00 bet and the $500.00 bet.

It may be the right decision, but in one case you are in on the decsion, and in the other, you are not just in you are REALLY in.

 

[JRKH]

While dropping them off at a pro-life clinic may sound like a good idea on the surface, there are other things to consider before taking someone somewhere against their will.

Your passenger may feel uncomfortable in a new part of town. She might not know she is safe there. You may be inadvertently putting her in danger as well. You may know this is a safe area, but she doesn’t necessarily. You might know that two streets over, the neighborhood starts getting pretty shady. She may stumble down that street without knowing. You don’t know if she has enough money for a cab to get back to where she wanted to end up or enough to make it to her destination.

And even “driving around” but not towards any real destination would be a fearful situation, if she knew enough to know that you’re not driving her towards the clinic. What are you doing? Are you some sick maniac thats going to do something to her? Obviously, you wouldn’t tell her that, so any assurances you could offer would be pointless.

I would argue that declining to take her to her destination is a better response, or taking her to where she asked while talking to her about your philosophy would also be a good response. Offering to take her to a pro-life clinic and then leaving the choice up to her would even be fine- so long as you’re going to take her to the original clinic if she declines your offer.

You make some good points above. Thanks for pointing them out.
As for her money - If I took her somewhere other than her requested destination, or if she asked to be put out, I would not charge her at all, so she would retain her funds.
As to safety, I believe that in one of my posts I did mention that she should be put out someplace safe, not just dumped by the side of the road, so to speak.

In the end we obviously have differing views on what would be right and proper.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

It is.

But the OP placed the question of morality against where the next meal comes from.

The example does not.

It is the difference between a $5.00 bet and the $500.00 bet.

It may be the right decision, but in one case you are in on the decsion, and in the other, you are not just in you are REALLY in.

You are correct, which is why I have framed my answers in the same way - Placing morality against practicality. The dilemma is really a test of ones faith in God’s promises.

Peace
James

 

[GloriousOrder]

I’m sorry, but I’d rather lose my job than knowingly transport a baby to its death.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

You are correct, which is why I have framed my answers in the same way - Placing morality against practicality. The dilemma is really a test of ones faith in God’s promises.

Peace
James

I don’t know if that’s really fair. We didn’t place morality vs. success, we were thinking about the morality of intentionally giving up your job when your primary vocation is to care for your family.

I’m not asking if we should do the wrong thing to protect our jobs, I’m asking if God will forgive us for playing martyr throwing away our jobs while our families starve, in order to make a futile point that does nothing to prevent an abortion.

Let me give another example: If I hop on a plane to Iran today to preach the gospel in the streets of Tehran, and end up dead for it, leaving my family fatherless (hypothetical, i don’t have kids yet) … I’m pretty sure Jesus will not approve, even though martyrdom and preaching the gospel are generally considered good things.

 

[JRKH]

I don’t know if that’s really fair. We didn’t place morality vs. success, we were thinking about the morality of intentionally giving up your job when your primary vocation is to care for your family.

I’m not asking if we should do the wrong thing to protect our jobs, I’m asking if God will forgive us for playing martyr throwing away our jobs while our families starve, in order to make a futile point that does nothing to prevent an abortion.

1…You are asuming that the point is futile
2…Nothing is said in the OP abut the family starving as a result of the job loss.
3…As Christians and as Catholics our primary vocation is always to put God first. In this our family should be supportive.
4…This is not “playing martyr” but acting in the proper manner of avoiding sin.

Let me give another example: If I hop on a plane to Iran today to preach the gospel in the streets of Tehran, and end up dead for it, leaving my family fatherless (hypothetical, i don’t have kids yet) … I’m pretty sure Jesus will not approve, even though martyrdom and preaching the gospel are generally considered good things.

The above scenerio provides the opportunity to prayerfully consider whether you are truly called to this misson or not. In this sense it is quite different from finding yourself thrown into a situation like the cab driver is.
If you are truly called by God to do this, then your life would not be in vain and God would take care of your family. Jesus would approve.
Mt 10:37 - He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

Please know that I understand that others hold differing views from mine. I am not saying that their views are wrong. Each must search their own conscience.

Peace
James