Teacher with incompatible lifestyle

[FidesetRatioFan]

Long time reader of these forums but first time poster.

I am a RE teacher in Catholic school (not in the US). My department has recently acquired a new colleague who performed very well in interview and is an excellent candidate on paper. Moreover he professes a very strong Marian devotion which is admirable and he has attended masses etc. He has also performed well in relation to teaching and is exceptionally organised and has thus far gotten on very well with the boys.

He is also homosexual and talks about gay bars and drag queens in the staffroom over morning coffee. He does not do this in a loud way, merely a casual way to colleagues he is close to whom I am also close.

To be clear I have no problem with homosexuals being teachers. I recognise my own sinful nature and actions and even if I did not I would never presume to pass judgement on anybody else. I firmly believe that it is not my place and to do so is simply un Christian.

That said I do feel uncomfortable with the fact that my new colleague is in the RE department and professes to believe in the teachings of the church while living in a way that is simply not compatible. Students often ask about our own beliefs and religious experiences. Children and teenagers are so easily influenced and I do worry about things he may say when his classroom door is closed. Students he currently teach have said he does hold a differing view to me on life issues which I advocate i.e. abortion in particular. A section of the course deals with human sexuality and I usually give out a document by Basil Hume on homosexuality which affirms everybody’s position as being made in the image and likeness of God regardless of sexuality. The document also says quite clearly that there is an ideal to which humanity ought to strive which is incompatible with homosexual activity. . . .I do wonder how he will deal with this topic. Though I suspect he will teach one thing and continue living another.
I also shudder to see him recieve the eucharist.

My dilemna is whether I should draw attention to his lifestyle? The head of RE is actually, and unfortunately, quite liberal herself. However the headmaster is devoted to his faith and I know would not be pleased. The religious brothers attached to the school would also not be too impressed. I just do not know if I should mention anything or wait until somebody else does.
I would not feel comfortable talking to him about the issue myself and am apprehensive as he replaced a former colleague whom I am very good friends with who was sympathetic to the Catholic ethos of the school despite being a member of the orthodox church.
Would mentioning something seem petty and bigoted on my behalf?

Advice?

 

[JD27076]

Pray about it and bring it forward to the Head Master, who you said was very concentrated in his faith.

 

[teachccd]

While your concern is valid I would have to ask if you polled all of the other teachers to see if they view pornography, if they masturbate, have ever had an abortion, partake in excessive addictions of any kind, stolen anything, ruined anyone’s reputation or any of the many other disorderd behaviors that the Church condemns. What I am saying here is that the teacher needs to be evaluated on what exactly he teaches in the classroom. If it is known that he advocates homosexual behavior then it would be on par with advocating any sexual sin as being ordered and acceptable. Anyway, I just think that too many people focus on homosexuality as the elephant in the room when there are so many other lifestyles that are unacceptable. He needs to be evaluated the same way that all of the teachers are evaluated and that is on the content of his teachings. Just in case anyone wonders, I am not a homosexual so there is no hidden agenda in my post. God bless you and keep up the fervency when it comes to our children receiving the best Catholic education available…teachccd

 

[Corki]

While your concern is valid I would have to ask if you polled all of the other teachers to see if they view pornography, if they masturbate, have ever had an abortion, partake in excessive addictions of any kind, stolen anything, ruined anyone’s reputation or any of the many other disorderd behaviors that the Church condemns.

Apples and oranges. First of all, there is a world of difference between sins someone may have committed in the past or in private and a sinful lifestyle being currently lived and spoken about openly. Second, it doesn’t matter what anyone else does; this employee needs to be evaluated on his **own **suitablity to teach in a Catholic school.

What I am saying here is that the teacher needs to be evaluated on what exactly he teaches in the classroom. If it is known that he advocates homosexual behavior then it would be on par with advocating any sexual sin as being ordered and acceptable.

Either would make someone unsuitable for teaching in a Catholic school. A Catholic teacher should be evaluated on more than just the content of his classroom teaching. Most Catholic schools have requirements that their staff be good role models to the students and that they are living a life consistent with Church teaching. If they can’t do that, it doesn’t matter what they do or do not advocate in the classroom.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

You can try to bring it up. But just be aware that there’s q good chance the higher ups know, and running to them may make you look gossipy and petty. It’s usually best to mind your own business at work.

The city I graduated college in has many catholic schools, and I have several friends that got jobs there right after graduation. Most of them are pretty liberal, and two are openly gay. (And one just started dating another teacher that he works with.) Their administrators know about this, and there’s a good chance that the do at your school too.

I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt about his ability to teach what the school requires. They are paying him to do a job and he knows what that entails. Reporting him for something he might say won’t turn out well for you.

 

[daisybee]

If you are really concerned about possible unpleasant consequences involved in raising the issue, perhaps you could consider sending an anonymous letter to the principal or head master, along with some basic details that corroborate your concerns…details that those in charge could investigate and confirm themselves.

No matter how you decide to inform those in authority, you will be doing a great service to the parents who are entrusting their children to the school, and to the students themselves.

I remember a classmate who often spoke of a teacher with many problematic characteristics who had told him that it was okay to make decisions regarding sexual behaviors “as long as it was okay with his (the student’s) conscience.” Whatever that means. The teacher apparently had made no effort to present Catholic teaching about informing one’s conscience. The teacher’s statement did great harm to my classmate, and many close to my classmate.

I can’t imagine this teacher you’re describing soundly presently Catholic doctrine when his lifestyle is completely at odds with the faith.

And because he’s already spoken of his lifestyle at the workplace, the possibility of scandal is now an issue. According to the Catechism:

There are nine ways of assisting in another’s sin: 1) by counsel; 2) by command; 3) by consent; 4) by provocation; 5) by praise or flattery; 6) by concealment; 7) by partaking; 8) by silence; and 9) by defense of the ill done. Each one of these is “an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil” (CCC 2284), which is how the Catechism defines the sin of scandal. When we speak of presidents, priests, or politicians behaving scandalously, what we mean is that they are leading others to do evil, not that they’re doing something shocking, but that by their example, they lead others to behave in the same way. They lead others into thinking that that sort of behavior is not sinful when it really is.

catholicexchange.com/the-definition-of-scandal/

It’s amazing what supervisors are not aware of. I have a friend whose colleague has been engaged in corrupt behavior at work, yet her deeds go undetected because her colleagues do not want to be implicated in reporting her.

In any case, the situation you describe is much more serious because the formation of young people is at stake.

 

[thewanderer]

You can try to bring it up. But just be aware that there’s q good chance the higher ups know, and running to them may make you look gossipy and petty. It’s usually best to mind your own business at work.

The city I graduated college in has many catholic schools, and I have several friends that got jobs there right after graduation. Most of them are pretty liberal, and two are openly gay. (And one just started dating another teacher that he works with.) Their administrators know about this, and there’s a good chance that the do at your school too.

I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt about his ability to teach what the school requires. They are paying him to do a job and he knows what that entails. Reporting him for something he might say won’t turn out well for you.

What struck me in the OP was that this teacher has already started teaching other opinions on life issues. Now, it is possible that those in charge are aware of this and ok with this, but judging from the fact that he also said the headmaster and the brothers connected with the school would not be impressed by such things then there is actually reason to think that they might not be aware of this. Its possible that ultimately they would have no problem with it, but all I know is that if I were in charge and someone was not fulfilling their employment the way I expected them to I would most certainly want to be told about it. Obviously not in a tell-tale way, but a respectful message or conversation where people are not trying to interfere, but just wanted to let you know because they believed it to be something you would want to know about would certainly be welcome.

 

[Nate13]

You can try to bring it up. But just be aware that there’s q good chance the higher ups know, and running to them may make you look gossipy and petty. It’s usually best to mind your own business at work.

The city I graduated college in has many catholic schools, and I have several friends that got jobs there right after graduation. Most of them are pretty liberal, and two are openly gay. (And one just started dating another teacher that he works with.) Their administrators know about this, and there’s a good chance that the do at your school too.

I think I would give him the benefit of the doubt about his ability to teach what the school requires. They are paying him to do a job and he knows what that entails. Reporting him for something he might say won’t turn out well for you.

I think what is really bothering the OP is not that this teacher is sinning, but rather that it appears they don’t recognize what they are doing as a sin. And if they don’t see it as a sin, they also very likely don’t just disagree with the Church on homosexuality but on Church infallibility as well. I believe its a legitimate point to be wary about considering that its always preferable to have someone who believes what they are teaching. Even if they teach it all correctly, you have to believe they are not going to teach it as well if they don’t believe it themselves. I mean I wouldn’t want to go learn Calculus from a teacher who didn’t believe Calculus worked or was true if I had the option of learning it from someone who believed in it and was passionate about it… And if the students ever find out that the teacher doesn’t believe it themselves that is really going to undercut the whole lesson…

 

[Dorothy]

We, as followers of our Lord Jesus Christ, are to instruct and correct our brothers and sisters in Christ.

If you are very uncomfortable doing this then please go to the Headmaster as soon as possible and explain what you explained here. Even if you did speak with him yourself, the Headmaster needs to know.

Do it for the Lord, in charity. He will give you the grace to do so, just ask Him.

If this person truly has a Marian devotion, our Lady will help him through the confrontation.

You may be instrumental in saving his soul, and many others.

 

[doanli]

He needs to be let go. And that would go for ALL teachers living lives contrary to the Church’s teachings.

Teachers have to set a moral example to their students. I would not want this guy teaching my son. And I would make that loud and clear if I knew about it.

How you live your life reflects your faith (or your lack of it.).

Where is the pastor’s say in all of this?

 

[doanli]

I apologize if I sound harsh, but I am so sick and tired of “alternative lifestyles” being shoved down my family’s throat even if it’s on, say, a HGTV channel program.

We have got to start standing up for what we believe in, even if that means people leaving the Church. The Good Lord did not beg those disciples that could not accept the Holy Eucharist (His Body and Blood) to come back and “let’s talk”. You either accept it or you don’t.

 

[Lancer]

The sins you list are right in the same 6th Commandment …Sins against Chastity section in CCC with homoseual acts having a distinct …gravely depravity…classification…a signifivant point that can’t be ignotred…a significant difference…and those who commit those other sins against Chastity (masturbation, pornography, etc.) don’t openly talk about them at the lunch table…or or among friends…while on campus.

Secondly, the focus should be on the children…their security and protection is paramount. Your logic is, all though well meaning and in the interest of being fair/understanding,…is the same logic that got the bishops in trouble with priests who abused children…Bishops/pastors took it to be the same as those other sins…homosexual acts are not per CCC. When someone shows/tells you who they are…believe them and dont wish it away…homosexuality is the “elephant in the room” when your paramount concern is to protect young children.

Third, it is not a witch hunt…he is doing all the talking/revealing…I recommend talking directly with this teacher… telling him that if his lifestyle remains an open public topic and discussion topic for him…anywhere in/around the school…it will be reported…with a recommendation for removal/reassignment.

Lastly, the principal needs to be informed of this teachers conversations in any case …the “buck stops” with him/her…it is a great disservice to any “boss” who is ultimately responsible to keep a known significant fact from him/her"…disloyal…at best and could be criminal…at worse…just ask Bishop Finn.

For consideration…
Pax Christi

2352 By** masturbation** is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

2354** Pornography** consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

 

[Julia_Mae]

He is also homosexual and talks about gay bars and drag queens in the staffroom over morning coffee. He does not do this in a loud way, merely a casual way to colleagues he is close to whom I am also close…

Would mentioning something seem petty and bigoted on my behalf?

Advice?

My question is: does he talk about sex? Talk about having sex with someone else? Or is he just talking about the bars and knowing transvestites? If he is gay he has gay friends. He knows transvestites. The other teachers might be curious and ask about that.

For myself, I really don’t want to hear anyone talking about their sex life and would feel perfectly comfortable asking him or anyone to refrain. But if he is just chatting about where he has a social drink and who his friends are, then I am thinking the whole topic makes you uncomfortable and you’d like him to just… go away.

My advice is not to say anything to anyone until you are sure you have sorted out in your own mind what the issue actually is. Unless he is bragging about sinning, I think it’s a non-issue. It’s okay for a gay guy to have gay friends. Or anyone to.

Give this some more time.

.

 

[daisybee]

My question is: does he talk about sex? Talk about having sex with someone else? Or is he just talking about the bars and knowing transvestites? If he is gay he has gay friends. He knows transvestites. The other teachers might be curious and ask about that.

For myself, I really don’t want to hear anyone talking about their sex life and would feel perfectly comfortable asking him or anyone to refrain. But if he is just chatting about where he has a social drink and who his friends are, then I am thinking the whole topic makes you uncomfortable and you’d like him to just… go away.

My advice is not to say anything to anyone until you are sure you have sorted out in your own mind what the issue actually is. Unless he is bragging about sinning, I think it’s a non-issue. It’s okay for a gay guy to have gay friends. Or anyone to.

Give this some more time.

.

If he’s mentioning drag queens, he’s not just chatting about his friends. It seems rather provocative to throw out remarks about drag queens in a Catholic school.

Not all people with same-sex attraction have friends who are drag queens or who live a flamboyantly gay lifestyle. In fact, those who are striving for chastity and a holy life avoid such places and company.

Says St. Alphonsus Liguori: “…The bad habits of the wicked infect others who associate with them.” He goes on to say that we should avoid the wicked’s “discourses, feasts, allurements, and presents,” and that, when the wicked are asked why “they have made a certain young man fall into sin,” they answer, “We have done it without cause; we only wish to see him do what we ourselves do.”

See page 313 of this PDF, St. Alphonsus’ Sermon LXII - THIRTEENTH SUNDAY AFTER PENTECOST, On avoiding bad company ia700201.us.archive.org/9/items/sermonsforallsun00liguuoft/sermonsforallsun00liguuoft.pdf

St. John Vianney on Bad Company: catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/st-john-vianney-on-bad-company/

 

[thewanderer]

My question is: does he talk about sex? Talk about having sex with someone else? Or is he just talking about the bars and knowing transvestites? If he is gay he has gay friends. He knows transvestites. The other teachers might be curious and ask about that.

For myself, I really don’t want to hear anyone talking about their sex life and would feel perfectly comfortable asking him or anyone to refrain. But if he is just chatting about where he has a social drink and who his friends are, then I am thinking the whole topic makes you uncomfortable and you’d like him to just… go away.

My advice is not to say anything to anyone until you are sure you have sorted out in your own mind what the issue actually is. Unless he is bragging about sinning, I think it’s a non-issue. It’s okay for a gay guy to have gay friends. Or anyone to.

Give this some more time.

.

This is a good point to keep in mind.

 

[Dorothy]

If he’s mentioning drag queens, he’s not just chatting about his friends. It seems rather provocative to throw out remarks about drag queens in a Catholic school.

Not all people with same-sex attraction have friends who are drag queens or who live a flamboyantly gay lifestyle. In fact, those who are striving for chastity and a holy life avoid such places and company.

Says St. Alphonsus Liguori: “…The bad habits of the wicked infect others who associate with them.” He goes on to say that we should avoid the wicked’s “discourses, feasts, allurements, and presents,” and that, when the wicked are asked why “they have made a certain young man fall into sin,” they answer, “We have done it without cause; we only wish to see him do what we ourselves do.”

See page 313 of this PDF, St. Alphonsus’ Sermon LXII - THIRTEENTH SUNDAY AFTER PENTECOST, On avoiding bad company ia700201.us.archive.org/9/items/sermonsforallsun00liguuoft/sermonsforallsun00liguuoft.pdf

St. John Vianney on Bad Company: catholicismpure.wordpress.com/2012/04/01/st-john-vianney-on-bad-company/

Excellent post!

 

[Julia_Mae]

If he’s mentioning drag queens, he’s not just chatting about his friends. It seems rather provocative to throw out remarks about drag queens in a Catholic school.

Unless he is referring to his friends and he is in the teachers’ lounge chatting about his own life.

Not all people with same-sex attraction have friends who are drag queens or who live a flamboyantly gay lifestyle.

Most I know do, and maybe this man does. BTW, some drag queens are straight.

 

[andrewstx]

Come to think of it all the men who played drag queens in “Priscilla Queen of the Desert” are heterosexuals, and so were the men in “Wong Fu, thanks For Everything” were too. And there are plenty of gays who depise drag.

 

[daisybee]

Unless he is referring to his friends and he is in the teachers’ lounge chatting about his own life.

Perhaps, but the issue remains that he does not seem to be particularly discerning or concerned about the company he keeps, which, as I noted above with references to St. Alphonsus Liguori’s and St. John Vianney’s sermons/writings, is something that people striving for holiness should be concerned with…especially in this teacher’s case, because he has a direct influence on the religious formation of young people. If he were in any other profession that did not involve influencing youth, I suppose it would be less of a problem if he wanted to be careless in protecting his own spiritual health. However, in this case, he should be concerned about how is example could negatively impact the spiritual health of his “flock” of students.

The OP also noted that he is pro-abortion…this is perhaps even more concerning than the type of lifestyle he may be leading.

He is unfaithful to the Church’s teachings. He has no business working as a religious education instructor.

Most I know do, and maybe this man does. BTW, some drag queens are straight.

Most I know don’t…but there’s no way you or I can prove that online. I don’t care much about the sexual orientation of drag queens; regardless of their orientation, they’re not appropriate company for a teacher at a Catholic school.

When I taught at a Catholic school, there was language in the faculty handbook to the effect of there being expectations that the teachers were expected to be good examples to the students, which included their behavior and activities outside of the school…which should not be at odds with Church teaching. Other dioceses have expectations like this.

The teacher may be disregarding the expectations of his diocese if his school’s handbook has similar language.

 

[Elizium23]

What you have is an extremely delicate and sensitive situation unfolding. You say you are not in the US. I can only give you my perspective as a Catholic from my meager knowledge of US labor law. Your colleague is showing a tendency to create what we term as a “hostile work environment”. This is any conversation or activity in a work setting which tends to make others uncomfortable due to controversy or confrontation. Another example would be if an employee were starting fistfights with others at work.

I think it is too early for you to consider taking action on this. You must take a “wait and see” attitude as you broach the subject of homosexuality in your RE course and observe his attitude and words. However, right now you can do more than wait and see. You should document his comments and activity as you see it, not going to any length to spy on him or pursue him or entrap him by his words, but you should merely make notes of what he said to co-workers in a work environment, the time and date and place of all activity, and keep this in a private place not at work.

There is a real possibility that this employee could be in a court case, or less seriously, a case of arbitration or series of work meetings, and when you are called to testify, you will need to have unassailable proof of what was said. If you just try to recall it then you will forget things and change your story and look like a liar. You should also avoid every appearance of your possible bias against this person, because homosexualists are quick to throw accusations of hate against people who call them out on immoral beliefs and behavior. The Truth is stronger than hate. Remember what it says in the Catechism, that every sign of unjust discrimination must be avoided. You should also avoid discussing his activity with other co-workers, and certainly you must not form a group united against him. This will be perceived as bullying and bias, your case would be best if it were presented as you, an individual Catholic, who expected orthodoxy and a diverse but civil work environment. I would personally hesitate to be the first one to bring an accusation against him. I gather from your words that you are not his boss or manager but an equal. If you are the first one to accuse him of disrupting the work environment, then it could be seen as a power play, jealousy, bias I already mentioned, anything other than pure motives. Search your conscience and purify your soul so that you do not harbor any jealousy against this man.

I will pray for you and your co-worker. I hope that this can be worked out without having a confrontation. I hope that perhaps your co-worker will learn Truth from the gentle examples of others in the workplace, repent, and abandon his sinful lifestyle. We know that Our Blessed Mother can change hearts, and if he indeed has a deep Marian devotion, then she can change his heart in this way. Keep going to Mass and receive the Eucharist. It is the most important thing we can do in this life. Ask the Holy Spirit for right judgement. Only He can mediate a happy ending to your dilemma.