Teaching infallible?

  • Thread starter Thread starter MarisStella
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, not exactly, Texas. The NFP method or as you call it “the actions of testing the body in efforts to plan intercourse in periods” does not render procreation impossible.
is procreation possible without and egg. Does having sex with bodies in the absence of an egg render procreation impossible?
This method has sex during infertile periods and does not during fertile periods. Thus sex is understood as inseparable from the act of procreation.
either the body is infertile or procreative it can not be both
And there are cases…many cases of people who follow this method and still get pregnant.
Contraception would be any barrier or chemical that either kills or doesn’t allow sperm from coming into contact with the egg, or any chemical that kills the egg or regulates its receptivity, thus rendering pregnancy impossible.
not bad not bad at all however it could be picked apart if used as the actually standard. For example some use “time” as a “barrier” to “separate” sperm and egg. I think the church’s intent is the foreign object aspect.
See, this has to do with the Catholic view of responsibly planning a marriage; which doesn’t just mean planning how many kids you want.
It means understanding the moral, emotional, societal, and physical implications of sexuality and family.
exactly which means the issue is not single statement of any kind. It is a small piece of life teachings
What do you see wrong with this (I ask this for inquiry not accusation)?
First you have intent, the Pope write “grave reasons” which is now said to be “serious reasons” which appears to be shrinking in “seriousness” daily. This is being done by the same who want to call this infallible. Second to equate sex actions with the Assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Conception, or Devine Revelation is a big mistake in my mind. 3 rd some forms of contraception do not seem to be counter to Catholic teaching. And 4th in the future many changes to both marriage and ovulation knowledge will create further issues, Constantly entering the bedroom to give new interpretations is in my opinion another mistake. I hope the church does not pursue such.

Thanks
 
A woman’s body is infertile during certain parts of the month.

I think one a person rendering procreation impossible is different than the person’s body being infertile.

To render is an action done by someone to make something happen. A person renders an otherwise fertile body incapable of procreating when they use contraception. In the NFP case, the body is not fertile at that time. Or if the person is infertile through other causes, natural causes, sickness or age, then we find the same–the person didn’t render himself or herself sterile or infertile, rather the person is this way, and it is not a violation of the sanctity of the conjugal act.

As far as people using time as a standard to separate sperm and egg, again I disagree. The egg is separated naturally at that time, and the people cannot use time in that sense. The egg is naturally unprepared, and God had created humans this way…to not be fertile all day every day.

God bless,
Aaron
 
First you have intent, the Pope write “grave reasons” which is now said to be “serious reasons” which appears to be shrinking in “seriousness” daily. This is being done by the same who want to call this infallible.

Thanks
I assume by “reasons” you are referring to the use of NFP to space pregnancies, but you forgot to include you citations. From what sources are you getting the Pope’s “reasons”?

But, even assuming you have sources to back up what you say about the Pope’s “reasons” (serious vs grave), is there any difference between these two words used in this context?

*grave: 1. **serious *or solemn; sober: a grave person; grave thoughts.
2. weighty, momentous, or important: grave responsibilities.
3. threatening a seriously bad outcome or involving serious issues; critical: a grave situation; a grave illness
.

*serious: 1. of, showing, or characterized by deep thought.
2. of **grave **or somber disposition, character, or manner: a serious occasion; a serious man.
3. being in earnest; sincere; not trifling: His interest was serious.
4. requiring thought, concentration, or application: serious reading; a serious task.
5. weighty or important: a serious book; Marriage is a serious matter.
6. giving cause for apprehension; critical: The plan has one serious flaw.
7. Medicine/Medical. (of a patient’s condition) having unstable or otherwise abnormal vital signs and other unfavorable indicators, as loss of appetite and poor mobility: patient is acutely ill. *

The words “grave” and “serious” are synonymous used in this context.

The Pope’s “reasons” shrinking in seriousness every day? It’s ridiculous to say this when you’ve given no evidence. If the Pope used two synonymous words to describe the “reasons”, how then do you jump to the conclusion that the “reasons” are shrinking in seriousness every day? Certainly Pope Paul VI said the same thing in 1968 that Pope John Paul II said 30 years later. No reasons have “shrunk.”

The “reasons” are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

If you can’t see it, you can’t see it. It’s crystal clear to me, though.
 
either the body is infertile or procreative it can not be both
Please use caution when you are trying to explain your POV. This statement is both factually untrue and hurtful to the infertile.

To say to the infertile that just because they cannot reproduce it makes their marital act not procreative is extremely insulting. One of the reasons I can see that you have a misunderstanding of the teaching condemning contraception is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be procreative.

The body can be infertile. The sexual act is what is procreative. Please seek deeper understanding of this. The Catechism is not in contradiction with itself.
 
Please use caution when you are trying to explain your POV. This statement is both factually untrue and hurtful to the infertile.

To say to the infertile that just because they cannot reproduce it makes their marital act not procreative is extremely insulting. One of the reasons I can see that you have a misunderstanding of the teaching condemning contraception is that you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what it means to be procreative.

The body can be infertile. The sexual act is what is procreative. Please seek deeper understanding of this. The Catechism is not in contradiction with itself.
Thank you LittleDeb

I do not agree with the comment but I do take it as sincere. If you know of a specific Church teaching to site that would of course change my POV. I have no need or intend to misunderstand the Church. One of many problems with the issue of the thread is “Who gets to define what?” the actual Church teachings are riddled with words and concepts which have from their initial use been under debate. The Pontiff wrote of this during the encyclical (1968). The current question is "Who defines procreative? " My POV is the Church has clearly taught the “act” need not be procreative; it is licit as a unitive action between married couples. Maybe the term “open to life” is the confusion? Again the Church seems to have clearly taught this general means free of ( I’ll paraphrase) outside natural actions. So what is inside of natural actions and what is outside of natural actions? Actions as surgery are disallowed for this purpose, but allowed for other purposes. Actions as using plastic barriers are disallowed, while actions as planning a time oriented barrier are allowed. Another possibility is the issue of marriage existing primarily as a natural state for procreation? This is a Church teaching but again the Church teaches lack of blessing (in the form of a child) is not a sign of an invalid marriage.

In closing I do not believe the earlier post to untrue in regard to the meaning of procreation.
 
… It’s ridiculous to say this when you’ve given no evidence… how then do you jump to the conclusion that the “reasons” are shrinking in seriousness every day? … No reasons have “shrunk.”

The “reasons” are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

If you can’t see it, you can’t see it. It’s crystal clear to me, though.
If *“The “reasons” are the same yesterday, today, and forever.” *Can you list them? I think not. How about listing the procedure to determine the reasons? I would be quite happy with that.

Concerning the requested references they do exist, and are probably on the forum. A while back some of the forum was lost in a computer crash. We discussed that issue and several related issues. If you truly need the reference we could either dig them out or recreate the list. From memory I recall the EWTN site carried the “grave reasons” as did my file copy, as did other web based Catholic sites. One thing I felt we never resolved was the new English prints of the “Humanae Vitae” are typically marketed as revised, revised from what? Another comment I recall was a reference to the midwives encyclical. I grew up with “grave” as the standard. I do understand the word “grave” and “serious” can have some overlapping meaning however that was never my understanding of the Catholic Standard. For example missing a credit card payment is too many serious but not grave. It is interesting that the definition you posted did not list grave as a noun. We used adjective grave, as it related to the noun form. Depending on the reference you wish to use the average family size in the US has shrank from ~7 (5 kids) to >4. So if the serious reasons are exactly the same what explains the drop? Abortion accounts for a drop of one, were are the other 2? I contend the “serious reason” standard accounts for their loss.
 
If *“The “reasons” are the same yesterday, today, and forever.” *Can you list them? I think not. How about listing the procedure to determine the reasons? I would be quite happy with that.

Concerning the requested references they do exist, and are probably on the forum. A while back some of the forum was lost in a computer crash. We discussed that issue and several related issues. If you truly need the reference we could either dig them out or recreate the list. From memory I recall the EWTN site carried the “grave reasons” as did my file copy, as did other web based Catholic sites. One thing I felt we never resolved was the new English prints of the “Humanae Vitae” are typically marketed as revised, revised from what? Another comment I recall was a reference to the midwives encyclical. I grew up with “grave” as the standard. I do understand the word “grave” and “serious” can have some overlapping meaning however that was never my understanding of the Catholic Standard. For example missing a credit card payment is too many serious but not grave. It is interesting that the definition you posted did not list grave as a noun. We used adjective grave, as it related to the noun form. Depending on the reference you wish to use the average family size in the US has shrank from ~7 (5 kids) to >4. So if the serious reasons are exactly the same what explains the drop? Abortion accounts for a drop of one, were are the other 2? I contend the “serious reason” standard accounts for their loss.
I’m not sure what you’re talking about, then. I assumed you were talking about some declaration of the Pope about the “reasons” one could use NFP to space pregnancies. I assumed that one Pope said “grave” while another said “serious.” Apparently you aren’t sure what documents you are referring to either. If you can’t give your citations, then you still have no evidence for whatever point you were trying to make.

When I listed the definitions for the word “grave,” I omitted the definitions of the word used as a noun because “grave” was obviously used as an adjective. I got the definitions from this site:
dictionary.reference.com/
I used this site only because it was convenient to copy and paste.
 
…
The “reasons” are the same yesterday, today, and forever.

If you can’t see it, you can’t see it. It’s crystal clear to me, though.
Maybe it would be simpler if you listed the “reasons” an official list would be nice?
 
Maybe it would be simpler if you listed the “reasons” an official list would be nice?
The couple themselves discern whether they are able to welcome a new child into their family at this time. We don’t put hard limits, because what might be trivial to one couple might be very serious for another couple. There are many factors that come into play, but, for example, if the mother is having health issues, or if the father is unemployed, then now might not be the time to welcome a new child - they will reconsider the situation next month and see whether things have improved - if Dad is working by then, and if Mom is undergoing an effective therapy that doesn’t interfere with a pregnancy, then at that time, they can say “Yes” to a new child.

Using NFP, they are free to do this because they don’t have to wait six months for the effects of chemical contraception to wear off. Using NFP, they are able to do this because they know what days are best for getting pregnant.

The couple themselves have to examine their conscience to see if they are avoiding children for serious reasons, or for selfish reasons. There are no Vatican policemen to come along and tell them that they have to become pregnant this month - it’s up to them.
 
See! One day the Church will decide that **the meaning **of articfical birth control pills has changed.🙂
I quote from the author of that piece:
The point here is that the essential teaching in the Church’s condemnation of usury is the condemnation of economic injustice, and collecting interest in the modern economy is not necessarily unjust, as explained above. In contrast, contraception, understood essentially as the deliberate deparation of the unitive from the procreative meaning of the marital act, is always evil, and cannot be otherwise, regardless of any new-fangled way in which people do it.
To think there could be a reverse in this teaching would mean the Church was capable of teaching error. If that were true then She should never be trusted. It would also mean there were two Holy Spirits that contradicted each other. Not a possibility.
 
I quote from the author of that piece:

To think there could be a reverse in this teaching would mean the Church was capable of teaching error. If that were true then She should never be trusted. It would also mean there were two Holy Spirits that contradicted each other. Not a possibility.
At one time, money had an absolute and unchangeable value.

That changed with the rise of cities - when it was possible to get a different price for one’s cow depending on market demand, all of a sudden, it became possible for money itself to generate money (because you could buy the cow for a small amount of money when it was not in high demand, and then sell the exact same cow for a higher amount of money when the demand was greater - thus, the money spent on the cow when it was bought actually generated money of its own - after all, the cow herself didn’t change, or get any larger). Once that became possible, it then became possible to lend someone money for the purpose of buying a cow at a low price, so that money could be earned from it when selling it for a high price - and the lender could charge interest on the money lent, in order to gain a share of the profit gained at the time of the sale. Not only did this become possible, it became necessary, since if the lender didn’t get to have a share in the final profit, then why should he lend the money? Why not just buy the cow himself, and keep the entire profit for himself? This is how the definition of money changed.

I doubt that anything will happen to cause the definition of “birth control” to change. If it does, though, then, as someone pointed out above, that’s when we’ll have something to talk about.
 
At one time, money had an absolute and unchangeable value.

That changed with the rise of cities - when it was possible to get a different price for one’s cow depending on market demand, all of a sudden, it became possible for money itself to generate money (because you could buy the cow for a small amount of money when it was not in high demand, and then sell the exact same cow for a higher amount of money when the demand was greater - thus, the money spent on the cow when it was bought actually generated money of its own - after all, the cow herself didn’t change, or get any larger). Once that became possible, it then became possible to lend someone money for the purpose of buying a cow at a low price, so that money could be earned from it when selling it for a high price - and the lender could charge interest on the money lent, in order to gain a share of the profit gained at the time of the sale. Not only did this become possible, it became necessary, since if the lender didn’t get to have a share in the final profit, then why should he lend the money? Why not just buy the cow himself, and keep the entire profit for himself? This is how the definition of money changed.

I doubt that anything will happen to cause the definition of “birth control” to change. If it does, though, then, as someone pointed out above, that’s when we’ll have something to talk about.
That is just it. The meaning of money may change, but not the moral law.
“The Church’s teaching on contraception does not belong in the category of matter open to free discussion among theologians. Teaching the contrary amounts to leading the moral consciences of spouses into error.”14 In the words of one bishop: “The Church has not changed its teaching against contraception. What is more, the Church cannot change its teaching against contraception. Because the Church sees that teaching as based on God’s moral order.”15
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Faith/11-12-98/Morality2.html
 
I think logic departed … it cannot be had by **those beneath him **and the hope of any understanding of truth is [gone].
First of all, what specifically is a “magisterium?” It seems almost like a stack of documents or perhaps an ancient tome, which Christ allegedly handed over to his disciples. Although He and most labourers had the strength to carry the equivalent in weight of a set of encyclopedia, we’ve never had the impression that he wrote or carried around a set of tomes. …
. Logic …… is nothing more than mystical, sensuous exploration of the material world.
Really? I personally know some exemplary university professors of mathematics, as well as physics and astronomy, AND ancient Greek philosophy …. And you really imply their professionalism and work is: “nothing more than mystical, sensuous exploration of the material world.”??? [no further comment at this time…]
I am struck by the statement/declaration, “he is also prevented from declaring anything that is contrary to divine revelation by the power of the Holy Spirit.” That’s fine by me and most…! I agree 100%. What about “neutral” declarations, regarding which the Holy Spirit is not involved? (no flippancy intended; neutral may mean unimportant or meaningless to heaven and earth)
If no authority can be had by the Holy Father to discern the … law of God, then neither can it be had by those beneath him and the hope of any understanding of truth is destroyed forever.
I didn’t say “NO authority” at all; he is only human, not divine, not omniscient. Nobody knows everything. Hopefully everyone is capable of something and some insight, mortal though we are. But it sounds like you are implying there is nothing “those beneath him” can know that the pope does not know already. We may reply that even if the pope can know what’s on my screen saver and wallpaper here by some extreme clairvoyance, for example, it would still be by some means necessary. Only God can know all without means. Surely you are not so peesimistic as to believe that all other ordinary human beings, “those beneath” the elite, are incapable of creativity or original thought? Many ordinary people feel that some “infallible” pronouncements from “on high” seem to run into problems when bluntly applied to some extreme, subtle or complex circumstances. Static concepts and pronouncements might work then, or they might not.
Do Western culture and doctrines (concepts) necessarily apply to all cultures, all times, all places, all circumstances? Not to digress, but we get the impression that some people have a different concepts of God, as if He were a king-on-earth, not an infinite Creator beyond all creatures; and others seem to hold the concept that He is separate from all, infinitely distant from earth, from nature, from us, from the world.
Furthermore, focusing all moral concern on a single egg cell, even an unfertilized egg cell, or a drop of sperm, seems to trivialize sin as invariably sexual and also an “evil” label stuck on an event involving cells alone. In ancient times the science of cells simply was not known.

ReformedCatholic said:
:
At the time, there was no understanding of human conception and reproduction as we know it today. The prevailing theory at the time was that the “baby” existed in the sperm of the man that was deposited into the woman to grow.
Therefore, masturbation by men would have been viewed as “killing” a child, and akin to an abortion, which is indeed evil.
…We are no longer in the Dark Ages, and we know now that it doesn’t work that way; Therefore, no evil involved. Get it? -RWD
Code:
     For instance, do you agree, “The Church does not teach that people who are infertile … cannot have sex.”? So there is nothing wrong with a married couple loving each other, in private, in good faith, with the marital act, even if they are not necessarily fertile at that time? Right?     Now I understand that hormonal medication is permitted (a friend, Maria, a devout Catholic btw, needed that for dysmenorrhea or menstrual problems during adolescence). But the medicine happened to be the “Pill,” which prevents ovulation. So, although no sex was involved at that time,  where is the “evil?”     If you assume any of these things are evil, you get logical contradicitons and absurdities. And Maria is definitely not a “sex toy.” Her family would be deeply offended by such an epithet.             Sincerely,       Marilyn    :o
(and no, I’m not mixing in various ‘desires’ as if it were a virtue to have no desires of any sort at all. Again, that accusation is unduly pessimistic and cynical)
 
The couple themselves discern whether they are able to welcome a new child into their family at this time. We don’t put hard limits, because what might be** trivial **to one couple might be very serious for another couple. There are many factors that come into play, but, for example, if the mother is having health issues, or if the father is unemployed, then now might not be the time to welcome a new child - they will reconsider the situation next month and see whether things have improved - if Dad is working by then, and if Mom is undergoing an effective therapy that doesn’t interfere with a pregnancy, then at that time, they can say “Yes” to a new child.

Using NFP, they are free to do this because they don’t have to wait six months for the effects of chemical contraception to wear off. Using NFP, they are able to do this because they know what days are best for getting pregnant.

The couple themselves have to examine their conscience to see if they are avoiding children for serious reasons, or for selfish reasons. There are no Vatican policemen to come along and tell them that they have to become pregnant this month - it’s up to them.
Thank you, I was hoping Janet S would reply to your post as to me it seemed so opposed to her writing. I do not know of an official Church teaching on this subject. I noticed you did not cite one. I also notice you used the word “trivial” which indicates your opinion is even more leant than mine concerning what does and does not qualify.

I think Janet S was referring to this ( I was not) however it seems a fit for your post.

“The matrimonial contract, which confers on the married couple the right to satisfy the inclination of nature, constitutes them in a state of life, namely, the matrimonial state. Now, on married couples, who make use of the specific act of their state, nature and the Creator impose the function of providing for the preservation of mankind. This is the characteristic service which gives rise to the peculiar value of their state, the bonum prolis. The individual and society, the people and the State, the Church itself, depend for their existence, in the order established by God, on fruitful marriages. Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, **to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason would be a sin against the very nature of married life. **,

**Serious motives such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” **, may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned. If, however, according to a reasonable and equitable judgment, there are no such grave reasons either personal or deriving from exterior circumstances, the will to avoid the fecundity of their union, while continuing to satisfy to tile full their sensuality, can only be the result of a false appreciation of life and of motives foreign to sound ethical principles.”
Address to Midwives on the Nature of Their Profession, by Pope Pius XII
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=3462
 
This is long post, so I’ll divide it.
First of all, what specifically is a “magisterium?” It seems almost like a stack of documents or perhaps an ancient tome, which Christ allegedly handed over to his disciples. Although He and most labourers had the strength to carry the equivalent in weight of a set of encyclopedia, we’ve never had the impression that he wrote or carried around a set of tomes. …
So far as believing in the concept of Magisterium, which is the authority of the Church to catalogue and where necessary to expound on divine revelation, that is a matter of faith. To deny its existence and more to the point its binding authority on the universal Church is to really cease to be Catholic and enter into the realm of Protestantism. I don’t use that an an epithet necessarily but that’s really the fact of the matter. As far as them having a Concise Guide to Divine Law with them, the author and guide of the Magisterium is the same as that of papal infallibility: the Holy Spirit. You’re very right in that carrying around such a document would’ve been cumbersome, if such a document had existed. That’s precisely why a Magisterium, embodied in the orthodoxy of an episcopate teaching in unity with the Holy Father was necessary; delivering teaching of God to the masses is a simpler matter in words is far easier and more effective then having them read a book.
Mark & Marilyn:
Really? I personally know some exemplary university professors of mathematics, as well as physics and astronomy, AND ancient Greek philosophy …. And you really imply their professionalism and work is: “nothing more than mystical, sensuous exploration of the material world.”??? [no further comment at this time…]
I am struck by the statement/declaration, “he is also prevented from declaring anything that is contrary to divine revelation by the power of the Holy Spirit.” That’s fine by me and most…! I agree 100%. What about “neutral” declarations, regarding which the Holy Spirit is not involved? (no flippancy intended; neutral may mean unimportant or meaningless to heaven and earth)
Professionalism? Is that the measure of a “philosophy’s” worthiness? Am I to understand that analysis of the natural universe is to be equated with the promulgation of divine law? I’m sorry, but the former is trumped by the latter. Natural sciences such as mathematics, physics and astronomy have their place, in that they reveal to us the inherent poetry of creation, recognizing that for the proliferation of such a complex universe there must be a singularly simple and omnipotent Creator, but they are limited to understanding of the natural world. Mathematics cannot imitate or comprehend the mechanism of choice in the human mind. Physics, as inconstant and shifting as water, has provided only the barest understanding from the macroscopic down to the nucleonic, and even there its disciples cannot bring themselves to agree. Even astronomy cannot take us even the smallest fraction of time before the Big Bang. When I say that it is sensuous I do so because science is so often the sacrifice on the altar of empirical evidence, an attempt to discount the divine by offering ever more complex scenarios of unauthored, happenstance creation.

Also, where faith and morals are concerned there really is not such thing as a neutral declaration. A pontiff would not exercise his charism of infalliblity for a morally neutral situation.
 
Mark & Marilyn:
I didn’t say “NO authority” at all; he is only human, not divine, not omniscient. Nobody knows everything. Hopefully everyone is capable of something and some insight, mortal though we are. But it sounds like you are implying there is nothing “those beneath him” can know that the pope does not know already. We may reply that even if the pope can know what’s on my screen saver and wallpaper here by some extreme clairvoyance, for example, it would still be by some means necessary. Only God can know all without means. Surely you are not so peesimistic as to believe that all other ordinary human beings, “those beneath” the elite, are incapable of creativity or original thought? Many ordinary people feel that some “infallible” pronouncements from “on high” seem to run into problems when bluntly applied to some extreme, subtle or complex circumstances. Static concepts and pronouncements might work then, or they might not.
As a man of logic, is it not equally possible that such circumstances do not conflict with divine law because it is in error, but because the choices of the individuals were inappropriate? In my time teaching CCD and giving lectures, I’ve had many people ask me how I justify some Church teachings because they feel that they’re unrealistic. I reply simply that if we are to believe that an omnipotent Creator exists and wishes for us to know His law, yet so many have difficulty living up to it, is it His fault, or is it a function of our own fallen natures? I think a lot of people use “extreme circumstances” and complexities as loopholes, as if revealed truth were some kind of divine tax law.
I do not discredit creativity or original thought, but it is wholly inappropriate in the realm of Divine law, because to use it there means that you know better than the Almighty, and it was for this very sin of pride that our first parents fell, and even Satan himself.
Mark & Marilyn:
Do Western culture and doctrines (concepts) necessarily apply to all cultures, all times, all places, all circumstances? Not to digress, but we get the impression that some people have a different concepts of God, as if He were a king-on-earth, not an infinite Creator beyond all creatures; and others seem to hold the concept that He is separate from all, infinitely distant from earth, from nature, from us, from the world.
Firstly, God and His law are eternal and constant. This must be established outright. Primitive mysticism, animism, rudimentary paganism, Eastern philosophies…all these are an attempt (I will not judge its ultimate futility) to reveal God and His relationship to His creation.

But it is only in Christianity that God is revealed in His glory. That was the entire point of the New Covenant. Until then, God had been separated from man because of the Fall, and it was through the redemption of man through the perfect sacrifice of Our Lord that communion between God and man was again possible.
Mark & Marilyn:
Code:
Furthermore, focusing all moral concern on a single egg cell, even an unfertilized egg cell, or a drop of sperm, seems to trivialize sin as invariably sexual and also an “evil” label stuck on an event involving cells alone. In ancient times the science of cells simply was not known.
The science of respiration, in the sense of chemistry was unknown until the 19th century…does this imply that we didn’t breathe before a hundred years ago? Of course not. We understood that we take something external into ourselves and that without it we’ll ultimately die. The details of breathing, or conception of human life happens irregardless of our knowledge of its mechanisms. We do not understand how humans store or process memory, but they still do. An understanding the function is not required for it play out. Nor is an understanding of gamete fusion necessary for the discernment and promulgation of moral law in this area. The fundamental truth of it was written of even in Genesis: the man shall cleave to his wife and they shall become one flesh. This spiritual fusion caused by the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony is echoed physically in the creation of offspring.
 
Mark & Marilyn:
For instance, do you agree, “The Church does not teach that people who are infertile … cannot have sex.”? So there is nothing wrong with a married couple loving each other, in private, in good faith, with the marital act, even if they are not necessarily fertile at that time? Right? Now I understand that hormonal medication is permitted (a friend, Maria, a devout Catholic btw, needed that for dysmenorrhea or menstrual problems during adolescence). But the medicine happened to be the “Pill,” which prevents ovulation. So, although no sex was involved at that time, where is the “evil?” If you assume any of these things are evil, you get logical contradicitons and absurdities. And Maria is definitely not a “sex toy.” Her family would be deeply offended by such an epithet. Sincerely, Marilyn :o
Ah, but you’re implying a correlation where none exists. Moral intent is vastly different. Sex between infertile couples still leaves the openness to life, however unlikely. Contraception is a rejection of that procreative capacity, whether likely or not. The issue, as with most moral theology is interior intent. That separates the adulterer from one who appreciates beauty, even the material heretic from the formal. This is that case with your friend, who takes oral contraceptive for medical reasons. Her intent is not to contracept, to be closed to life, but to use it for therapeutic reasons, with procreative frustration as a consequence (this in moral theology is called double effect).
Mark & Marilyn:
(and no, I’m not mixing in various ‘desires’ as if it were a virtue to have no desires of any sort at all. Again, that accusation is unduly pessimistic and cynical)
But are these desires for His glory or for yours?
 
Thank you, I was hoping Janet S would reply to your post as to me it seemed so opposed to her writing.
As far as I know, I don’t disagree with Janet S. on anything substantial. I am willing to have her correct me, if I ever do.

When I say that some things may be trivial for some couples, what I mean is that it isn’t really possible to set objective criteria, since every couple is different.

It remains, however, that childbearing should only be avoided for very serious reasons - no one should avoid child-bearing for trivial reasons, even if, in someone else’s case, that reason would constitute something very serious.

That was really convoluted - let me give an example:

Take the heir to a vast fortune, vs. a young man from the working class who took out several loans (which he is still paying off) to get his education.

Both men have the same education, both went to the same school, and both got married on the same day. Further, they both got similar jobs at the same company. They are both just starting out.

We’ll call the heir to a vast fortune “Henry” and we’ll call the working-class fellow “John.”

Both Henry and John are excited about their new jobs and their new marriages, and they’re both thinking about having their first child.

All of a sudden, something terrible happens to the company, and both Henry and John get laid off.

Both of them know that they are well-qualified, and will soon be re-employed by a different company.

Henry asks his Dad to help him out in the interim.

John makes a call to the bank to let them know that he won’t be able to make any loan payments for the next while, and his wife gets a cashier’s job at the local minimart to meet their day to day expenses.

Henry and his wife talk about whether they should delay having their first child. They examine the situation, and realize that they are well able to support a child, even under the present circumstances, because Henry’s Dad will be more than willing to help out with any unexpected expenses.

John and his wife talk about whether they should delay having their first child, and realize that if they encounter any unexpected expenses under the current circumstances, then they could easily become homeless. So, they decide to delay their first pregnancy until John’s employment situation becomes more stable, and his wife can quit the job at the minimart.

Do you see the difference? Even though both couples are in exactly the same situation objectively speaking, there is a subjective difference in the level of urgency.

In Henry’s case, his temporary lack of employment is not a serious reason to delay a pregnancy. But in John’s case, it is a serious reason.
 
Thank you, I was hoping Janet S would reply to your post as to me it seemed so opposed to her writing. I do not know of an official Church teaching on this subject. I noticed you did not cite one. I also notice you used the word “trivial” which indicates your opinion is even more leant than mine concerning what does and does not qualify.

I think Janet S was referring to this ( I was not) however it seems a fit for your post.

“The matrimonial contract, which confers on the married couple the right to satisfy the inclination of nature, constitutes them in a state of life, namely, the matrimonial state. Now, on married couples, who make use of the specific act of their state, nature and the Creator impose the function of providing for the preservation of mankind. This is the characteristic service which gives rise to the peculiar value of their state, the bonum prolis. The individual and society, the people and the State, the Church itself, depend for their existence, in the order established by God, on fruitful marriages. Therefore, to embrace the matrimonial state, to use continually the faculty proper to such a state and lawful only therein, and, at the same time, **to avoid its primary duty without a grave reason would be a sin against the very nature of married life. **,

**Serious motives such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called “indications,” **, may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory, positive debt for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life. From this it follows that the observance of the natural sterile periods may be lawful, from the moral viewpoint: and it is lawful in the conditions mentioned. If, however, according to a reasonable and equitable judgment, there are no such grave reasons either personal or deriving from exterior circumstances, the will to avoid the fecundity of their union, while continuing to satisfy to tile full their sensuality, can only be the result of a false appreciation of life and of motives foreign to sound ethical principles.”
Address to Midwives on the Nature of Their Profession, by Pope Pius XII
catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=3462
I was responding to your post:
First you have intent, the Pope write “grave reasons” which is now said to be “serious reasons” which appears to be shrinking in “seriousness” daily. This is being done by the same who want to call this infallible. Second to equate sex actions with the Assumption of Mary, the Immaculate Conception, or Devine Revelation is a big mistake in my mind. 3 rd some forms of contraception do not seem to be counter to Catholic teaching. And 4th in the future many changes to both marriage and ovulation knowledge will create further issues, Constantly entering the bedroom to give new interpretations is in my opinion another mistake. I hope the church does not pursue such.
I should have never responded to your quote because I don’t know what you mean by “serious reasons” or “grave reasons.”

Sorry I responded when it wasn’t clear what you meant. If you want to clarify what you meant and give some citations, that would be great.
 
I was responding to your post:

I should have never responded to your quote because I don’t know what you mean by “serious reasons” or “grave reasons.”

Sorry I responded when it wasn’t clear what you meant. If you want to clarify what you meant and give some citations, that would be great.
Sorry I do not have much time currently however for the first request here is something to display the issue, note a word count at the end of the website.

Vatican site
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_25071968_humanae-vitae_en.html
serious =5 grave = 4

New Advent
newadvent.org/library/docs_pa06hv.htm
serious =7 grave = 6

EWTN
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P6HUMANA.HTM
serious = 7 grave = 5

Papalencyclicals Online
papalencyclicals.net/Paul06/p6humana.htm
serious =7 grave = 5
Simply why do they not match? Though that is not the real issue. The real issue is why did/do so many cathollics believe from their teaching “grave” ( as in extremely serious) is the standard? I never heard serious until a few years ago. I have seen a few authors clearly address serious should have always been the correct word, however that makes no sense if the words actually was always serious? So they to seem to think “grave” was the word.

Additionally, here something from part 2
Humanae Vitae (Of Human Life)
Item #: 1004020
Author: Pope Paul VI
Price: $2.95
A revised and improved translation of Pope Paul VI’s encyclical letter, Humanae Vitae.
catholiccompany.com/product_detail.cfm?ID=432
or www.getfed.com

Revised and improved from what?

If the reasons for avoiding pregnancy are clear to you would you please state the reasons for me?-thx
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top