Teaching Mass

[lizaanne]

Or even respectfully and quietly in the church explaining everything outside of a Mass?

I still don’t think that’s even necessary - the sanctuary is not a classroom - it is sacred holy space, and is intended for one thing and one thing only - the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I know you agree with me - so not beating up on you - but just saying I don’t see the necessity to do this sort of thing in the sanctuary AT ALL.

~Liza

 

[Boulder257]

I would love to see wome of the other documents presented during this session, but I imagine they are only in Italian.

The sense I got was that 1) simply attending (reverant, orthodox) liturgy has the ability to teach us our faith, but that 2) teaching about the liturgy is also important.

So I think a “teaching Mass” like that described by powerlinemom would be acceptable to the Vatican. I haven’t seen anyone on this thread so far advocating that a normal Sunday Mass should be turned into a “teaching Mass”. But I do think there is value in explaining what all the ‘piece-parts’ of the Mass are.

Gotcha. Very well said. Thanks!

 

[superamazingman]

I still don’t think that’s even necessary - the sanctuary is not a classroom - it is sacred holy space, and is intended for one thing and one thing only - the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I know you agree with me - so not beating up on you - but just saying I don’t see the necessity to do this sort of thing in the sanctuary AT ALL.

~Liza

I was thinking more of a talk where the priest would be at the ambo and people in the pews, not everyone wandering around the sanctuary. But if you wanted to do more of a show-and-tell (for lack of better words), that would be better served in a classroom.

 

[clem456]

Although the Mass teaches by it’s very nature, I don’t think catechesis should be done during the Mass, as other posters have pointed out. This is probably just my opinion, I don’t know. It really smacks of being inauthentic and wooden, uninspired. It definitely adds things to the Mass that aren’t there. Does the priest call a timeout and say “ok, we are going to stop now and talk about what will happen next, but these words I am speaking are not part of the Mass”. Just seems very clumsy and manufactured.

That being said, catechists should have classes that go through the Mass step by step. I think explaining the Mass is one of the most important tasks of catechists. But not during the Mass (other than the homily).

 

[superamazingman]

Although the Mass teaches by it’s very nature, I don’t think catechesis should be done during the Mass, as other posters have pointed out. This is probably just my opinion, I don’t know. It really smacks of being inauthentic and wooden, uninspired. It definitely adds things to the Mass that aren’t there. Does the priest call a timeout and say “ok, we are going to stop now and talk about what will happen next, but these words I am speaking are not part of the Mass”. Just seems very clumsy and manufactured.

not to mention simply wrong, as I mentioned in post 311

 

[lizaanne]

I was thinking more of a talk where the priest would be at the ambo and people in the pews, not everyone wandering around the sanctuary.

Then it is a lecture - and the sanctuary is not a lecture hall.

But if you wanted to do more of a show-and-tell (for lack of better words), that would be better served in a classroom.

It really would need to be this, because the priest should show the implements and vestments used during the Mass for it to be beneficial.

I truly do believe that teaching about the Mass is an outstanding idea, and is very much needed to help people understand the Sacrifice. But — there is a time and a place for everything - and doing this during an actual Mass, or in the sanctuary is not appropriate.

~Liza

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I still don’t think that’s even necessary - the sanctuary is not a classroom - it is sacred holy space, and is intended for one thing and one thing only - the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I know you agree with me - so not beating up on you - but just saying I don’t see the necessity to do this sort of thing in the sanctuary AT ALL.

~Liza

Well the sanctuary is where the “stuff” is. Part of this would be explaining what things are. I personally don’t think this need to happen with an actual consecration, but walking through the entire Mass would make the most sense in the sanctuary.

Have you ever seen a priest train altar boys? They do it in the sanctuary. They walk through the whole Mass. That’s what I’m envisioning.

No the people learning aren’t altar boys (or EMHCs or readers, who hopefully already have a working knowledge), but for converts or Catholics with little previous knowledge and an interest, I think it would be very helpful.

 

[clem456]

Papal Message on Liturgy as Source of Catechesis

This document does not seem to support teaching Masses as we are discussing them here.

For this purpose, it is necessary to reflect ever better on the relation between catechesis and liturgy, yet rejecting all undue instrumentalization of the liturgy with “catechetical” ends. In this regard, the living Patristic tradition of the Church teaches us that the liturgical celebration itself, without losing its specificity, always has an important catechetical dimension (cf. Sacrosanctum Concilium, 33). In fact, in as much as it is the “the primary and indispensable source from which the faithful are to derive the true Christian spirit” (ibid., 14), the liturgy can be called the permanent catechesis of the Church, the inexhaustible source of catechesis, precious **catechesis in act **

 

[clem456]

not to mention simply wrong, as I mentioned in post 311

Catholicism doth make strange bedfellows.
I agree with you.

 

[Boulder257]

Will someone please answer this one question for me with a direct answer…

In what way would this proposed teaching situation be any less useful or effective if it were outside the sanctuary during a “real Mass”, but rather in a classroom setting where no actual consecration is taking place? Why is it so imperative that this occur during a real Mass?

~Liza

I think you have a very valid question and I would be interested to hear what others have to say.

Personally, I think it just comes down to it being an effective teaching method for some students. People learn differently. Who’s to say why someone learns something audibly, while another learns it visually? I guess for some people it just makes it more relatable, understandable, memorable, real. By seeing it happen and, at the same exact time, hearing the explanation, maybe it just “clicks” better with some people. You may not have needed something like this in your journey. You may not have needed this teaching method to know what you are supposed to be thinking about at each point, what each moment represents, why we do certain things, or what emotions we should concentrate on at a certain point of the Mass. However, for some people, this particular experience may have drawn them closer to the Lord through the Eucharist than a classroom setting ever could.

I don’t know if that’s the answer, and I am not justifying it…I am only offering a potential explanation for why it may be more popular/effective than a classroom.

 

[Boulder257]

Have you ever seen a priest train altar boys? They do it in the sanctuary. They walk through the whole Mass. That’s what I’m envisioning.

Great example!

 

[mikelionheart]

Some of the attitudes on this thread are depressing.

No wonder we have such an ignorant laity.

I wonder how many of the people who will, inevitably, reply to my post with anger are actually doing anything to explain the faith (which is, I hope you realise, quite a complicated and often very, very difficult to understand religion) to the vast numbers that don’t have a clue.

You know, there are actually some people in the world that were not brought up in devout Catholic families. And, horror of horrors, some of these people are not educated to high levels and able, or willing, to spend hundreds of hours reading books on theology.

 

[clem456]

I think you have a very valid question and I would be interested to hear what others have to say.

Personally, I think it just comes down to it being an effective teaching method for some students. People learn differently. Who’s to say why someone learns something audibly, while another learns it visually? I guess for some people it just makes it more relatable, understandable, memorable, real. By seeing it happen and, at the same exact time, hearing the explanation, maybe it just “clicks” better with some people. You may not have needed something like this in your journey. You may not have needed this teaching method to know what you are supposed to be thinking about at each point, what each moment represents, why we do certain things, or what emotions we should concentrate on at a certain point of the Mass. However, for some people, this particular experience may have drawn them closer to the Lord through the Eucharist than a classroom setting ever could.

I don’t know if that’s the answer, and I am not justifying it…I am only offering a potential explanation for why it may be more popular/effective than a classroom.

But the exact same catechesis can be done outside the body of the Mass. Our parish has done it.
It seems to me to put the teaching effort above the Eucharist, which is the source and summitof our Catholic life.

As far as the Catechesis, it’s not a matter of the what, but the where and when.

 

[superamazingman]

Unlike Lizaanne, I don’t see a problem with very reverently showing people the various implements of the church. The main problem, as well as the topic of the thread, is doing such teaching in the middle of Mass.

 

[dee_burk]

I understand what everyone is saying about having an “as-you-go” teaching Mass that includes the Eucharist, thats not my intention.
I am saying a teaching of the Mass that is explanatory of the wonder and beauty, i experience in Mass, would be nice. But in the actual sanctuary so i dont have to 'pretend" to see the altar and tabernacle and so forth.
RCIA seems to make a quick overall this is what it is…any questions…thats kind of a let down when i am feeling something so spiritual during the Mass and would like to know more about it. Maybe some RCIA classes are more in depth at other parishes…

 

[Boulder257]

Unlike Lizaanne, I don’t see a problem with very reverently showing people the various implements of the church. The main problem, as well as the topic of the thread, is doing such teaching in the middle of Mass.

I can certainly understand that…personally, and this is just personal preference, I can’t imagine the priest saying the words of consecration, and then upon lifting the hosts turns to the people and says, “now the reason I am lifting this up is because…”

I think Mrs. Sally’s post about training altar servers hits the nail on the head.

 

[clem456]

And I can understand the dilemma from the catechists’ point of view, how to get the butts in the pews over to the parish hall on Tuesday night for the class.

I can see where it is tempting to say “ok I have them here captive, and It is a teaching moment”.
We do have to work hard to get people past the Sunday Catholic thing.

 

[Boulder257]

But the exact same catechesis can be done outside the body of the Mass. Our parish has done it.
It seems to me to put the teaching effort above the Eucharist, which is the source and summitof our Catholic life.

As far as the Catechesis, it’s not a matter of the what, but the where and when.

Yep. I don’t disagree with you. Like I said, I wasn’t justifying it, I was purely offering an answer to the question. I didn’t say it was right, just saying that’s the way it is

 

[dee_burk]

I am sooooo happy we are all in agreement now.
Teaching is a need but not during an actual Mass. I love it when we all get along

I truly learn a lot on this forum and during these discussions.

 

[SonCatcher]

When that priest was ordained, he promised obedience.

Indeed he did. He brings that up regularly in his talks. Regarding the teaching Mass, he discussed a directive that such a Mass be held annually. Unfortunately, I don’t know the title or source of that directive. (that may have been discussed at the previous year’s teaching Mass if it is not in the YouTube clips - the priest has since retired) In celebrating the teaching Mass, he made clear that he was doing so in order to be obedient to that directive. He has since retired.

Thank you for the link.

You’re welcome.