Teaching that Protestants are damned

[Ghoti]

It’s one thing to be a Feeneyite; it’s totally another to go Westboro Catholic.

I do believe in EENS. But I do not begrudge anyone their salvation, if God wills it. And God saves (or not) at His pleasure. Also, we do not know What God may do, in His infinite Wisdom, Mercy, and Justice, for the non-Catholic at the point of death. Will He damn a catechumen who was on his way to baptism? Eugene IV would have the Lord damn even a martyr for the faith.

We know who are saved: the Saints. They may very well be the only ones. On the other hand, EENS, Feeney, Eugene, etc aside, we do not know *who *(if anyone) is in Hell. I do not believe the Church says, So-and-so died outside the Church, so he is in Hell. I don’t think the Church says that about anyone.

So, we have, what, ten thousand or so? some more? known to be in Heaven, and none known to be in Hell.

So where are the other billions of dead?

GOD only knows, the rest of us wrongfully suppose.

Salvation comes from the Church. Therefore, it is up to us as Christians to do our Christian duty, and bring the Word to all nations. Whosoever will, may come. Maybe it will be all of them. Maybe none. But we must do what we can to bring our neighbours into the Church. We desire our own salvation; so if we must love our neighbour as we love ourselves, must we not desire his salvation, too?

Look at the parable of the Good Samaritan. When asked, Who is my neighbour, Jesus replied: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers…”

A man. Not “a Jew”. Not “an Apostle of mine”. Not “a Roman senator”. Just “a man”. Jesus did not say who the man was; the Samaritan did not ask. The Samaritan acted as a neighbour to the stricken man, whoever he was. And Jesus demanded that we do the same.

Then there was the Pharisee in the Temple: “Thank you Lord, for making me pious and righteous and wonderful, not like this sinner over here.” Said sinner: “Have mercy on me, Lord, a sinner…” I think the Pharisee thought the other was going to Hell; or maybe ought to; and may have been, in his self-righteous pride, glad of it. Given the attitude of the sinner – so remorseful, so ashamed of his sins was he that he didn’t even dare raise his eyes to Heaven – I doubt that damning sentiment was returned.

If we do not hope for the salvation of our neighbours, how can we hope for our own, so bereft of love we are?

All I can say is…I will do my best – as pathetic or feeble as tht might be – to be a good Catholic man, to be a good example for others, and to try to be an apologist in my own little, imperfect way, and hope that way to lend myself to the Spirit to work through me, should He so deign. And when they’re dead, I’ll pray for their souls, and entrust them to God, Who I know will do the “right thing”, whatever that might be.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Ha ha delicious irony

“…Protestants dont follow God’s Church and so are damned…”

“…you think that protestants are damned, so therefore you are damned!”

But really, fellow Catholics, what the op is trying to say albeit in a round about way is that if Protestantism as a whole brings people to heaven apart from what we claim is the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church,” then we can no longer claim that we are the Church Christ founded.

It is a problem to be pondered, though as someone said earlier, maybe most protestants will be making a long layover in purgatory.

There’s always the alternative that your rendering of the definition of “church” is wrong? In other words if the church is a collective of all the faithful in Christ then it follows that we are all members of the church Christ founded.

At any rate I’m sure you won’t like this idea — oh well?

 

[canne]

What did Pope Eugene IV mean, then when he issued: “Cantate Domino,” 1441,

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

The doctrine that “Outside the Church there is no salvation” is one that is constantly misinterpreted by those who won’t submit to the Magisterium of the Church. Faith does not depend upon our ability to reason to the truth but on our humility before the Truth presented to us by those to whom Christ entrusted that task. This is why the First Vatican Council taught that it is the task of the Magisterium ALONE to determine and expound the meaning of the Tradition - including “outside the Church no salvation.”

ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm

 

[DixiesFinest]

There’s always the alternative that your rendering of the definition of “church” is wrong? In other words if the church is a collective of all the faithful in Christ then it follows that we are all members of the church Christ founded.

At any rate I’m sure you won’t like this idea — oh well?

1500 years of unbroken tradition…a rebellion by a monk with mental problems…500 more years since then of unbroken tradition…thousands of denominations…

sure, I guess I can just shrug my shoulders and say “oh well”

 

[bobzills]

1500 years of unbroken tradition…a rebellion by a monk with mental problems…500 more years since then of unbroken tradition…thousands of denominations…

sure, I guess I can just shrug my shoulders and say “oh well”

I would guess that there is more to it than just one person with a mental problem.

 

[sola_scriptura]

1500 years of unbroken tradition…a rebellion by a monk with mental problems…500 more years since then of unbroken tradition…thousands of denominations…

sure, I guess I can just shrug my shoulders and say “oh well”

Who could blame the man for his mental state – look at the persecution he suffered by your church?

When I look at all the events that circled around Luther I see divine providence everywhere. Lightning strikes a man who is studying law, one of (if not the most) gifted students among his peers. He promises God to give his life to Him after surviving the lighting strike. Then he is befriended by another priest in his Augustinian order who sends him to that famous place in Wittenberg.

Then the next actor in this divine play is our good friend Johann Tetzel. “As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from purgatory springs.” And of course there is Pope Leo X. Descended from the Medici line of Italian aristocrats, who practically invented modern banking. Made bishop first at age 13 (but nahhh didn’t have anything to do with his family). A peculiar note was Pope Leo named Tetzel commissioner of indulgences for Germany. His commission was to raise money to pay back a loan taken by the church for the rebuilding of St. Peter’s Basilica. Almost like Cheney and Halliburton. Leo’s banker buddies made a tone at 8% interest, and Tetzel was their man to choke the money out of German peasants.

Oh yeah, boy Luther must of have been nuts to get angry at this debacle. Luther was naive enough to think he was serving the church by complaining about Tetzel. He never imagined Pope Leo was complicit in this scheme, by hey infallible not impeccable right?

I guess perhaps if there was prozac in those days maybe Luther would have went along with the scheme, maybe even pocketed some extra change for himself. But I guess he was crazy enough to actually believe in Jesus and what He stands for. In other words God found just the right guy for the job – like He always does. Hey He chose Paul right? A serial killer of Christians.

Then the coincidences of this divine play become even more fantastic. The printing press – good old Gutenberg (gotta give it to German innovation). There you have it – all the pieces of the puzzle are formed to make the perfect storm for Rome.

Luther was no less than probably the most committed Christian in his day. Moreover, he was perhaps one of a small handful of the greatest theologians who ever lived – that’s right ever lived.

But yeah you’ll going on saying to yourself ahh Luther was nuts, etc. etc. etc. Say what you want about the man … all I have to say is whatever!

 

[Jash]

IMHO All who do not receive all of the necessary ordinances for salvation by one holding proper authority is “damned.” Damned meaning stopped in their progression toward God.

 

[RC_Matt]

There’s always the alternative that your rendering of the definition of “church” is wrong? In other words if the church is a collective of all the faithful in Christ then it follows that we are all members of the church Christ founded.

That actually IS the essential Catholic teaching and it further includes non-Christians. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is available online and the teaching on “salvation” begins at paragraph 830.

 

[sola_scriptura]

IMHO All who do not receive all of the necessary ordinances for salvation by one holding proper authority is “damned.” Damned meaning stopped in their progression toward God.

All righty then … urrrrr ----> kill the heathens

 

[Jash]

All righty then … urrrrr ----> kill the heathens

? urrrr----> kill the heathens? Whats that supposed to mean?

 

[Singinbeauty]

EDIT: Benedict’s recent comments on Protestants being part of the Body and salvation possible, were not stated infallibly, were they? He was probably just saying it to build a bridge for them to easier come back under him, right?

So telling a little white lie, just to build a bridge between both sides, is ok? Do you really think that your Pope would do this?

And why would you hope we are damned? Such arrogance is sickening. I pray that the Love of Christ for your fellow man softens your heart to those that your own catechism calls brothers and sisters.

Just terrible…

 

[sola_scriptura]

That actually IS the essential Catholic teaching and it further includes non-Christians. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is available online and the teaching on “salvation” begins at paragraph 830.

Well, I’m not sure (it’s sort of ambiguous). For example:

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

Paragraph 832 states “The Church of Christ” is really present in all legitimately organized groups of the faithful, which insofar as they are united with their pastors, are also quite appropriately called “churches” in the New Testament.

I’m not sure how these two ideas are reconciled? It seems we are recognized as Christians at least & in Rome’s view maintain an “imperfect” communion with the Roman Church. It also seems you are right to say that the RCC understand the definition of “church” in the New Testament as including churches (I assume that are not in communion with Rome). However, Pope Benedict’s recent comments seem to disagree with this:

• VATICAN CITY, July 10 – The Vatican said Tuesday that Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ. Some Protestant leaders responded that this would hurt interdenominational dialogue.

A 16-page document prepared by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Pope Benedict XVI headed when he was a cardinal, described Christian Orthodox churches as true churches, but suffering from a “wound” because they do not recognize the primacy of the pope.

The document said the “wound is still more profound” in the Protestant denominations. “Despite the fact that this teaching has created no little distress . . . it is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of ‘Church’ could possibly be attributed to them,” it said.*

washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/10/AR2007071000395.html?hpid=moreheadlines

So basically who knows? I wonder if we’re not full churches, are we half churches of Christ? Three quarters. Perhaps the Lutherans are seven eighths, us Presbyterians are three quarters, and Evangelicals are the unfortunate door number three at only a forty percent church. I guess we’re the body of Christ limping along on one leg (our other leg got blown off by a Catholic IED during the reformation).

I did find something unrelated to this topic in the Catechism that is quite interesting:

The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (Para. 841).

I never heard that before? What about John 3:18

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

So how can Muslims be included in the economy of salvation?

 

[panoikei]

Pope Pius IX, in *“On the Church in Austria (Singulari Quidam);” *

*It must, of course, be held as a matter of faith that outside the apostolic Roman Church no one can be saved, that the Church is the only ark of salvation, and that whoever does not enter it will perish in the flood. **On the other hand, it must likewise be held as certain that those who are affected by ignorance of the true religion, if it is invincible ignorance, are not subject to any guilt in this matter before the eyes of the Lord (***no. 7).

​

The invincibly ignorant would not include those who think that all religions are the same. That would be indifference. Jesus said, “I am the way” (John 14:6), not a way. The person who is *invincibly ignorant *honestly believes, though erroneously, that he is going the right way.
staycatholic.com/salvation_outside_the_church.htm

You seem to be taking the position that all who are not members of the Catholic Church are automatically dammed-that is not Church teaching. This rigorist position which was taken by Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium.

ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm

Good reply!

To the OP:
Your post is grossly offensive, especially to us Catholics that actually know the teachings of the Church…you must be SSPX…a schimatic group that claims all kinds of nonsense like this. My dad was SSPX…he too taught me that but I discovered by studying that this is not true. So why do you bring judgement upon yourself with such hateful things? Repent of it and confess your sin. It is grossly disordered thinking. Salvations comes through the Church of Christ for all. You insulting remarks are what keep the divide between charitable dialog. The Protestant group I belonged to for 17 years believes that you and all of these non-Christians are bound to hell. Just because you take it upon yourself doesn’t make it so. Even if you got millions to support you…you’d still be wrong. The Church does not teach what you say.

 

[sola_scriptura]

? urrrr----> kill the heathens? Whats that supposed to mean?

That was me making fun of your insane zealotry. Didn’t you say all who do not agree with your form of Christian worship are damned. I’m thinking you have a crusader outfit in your closet


Go get em cowboy. Though I wouldn’t suggest riding in with a horse, they have improvised explosive devices these days (not to mention AK’s). Better get a tank … we can call it the M1 holy roller. I would suggest starting in the Mid East … us protestants will be a much harder bunch for you. We have most of the hill billies

 

[sola_scriptura]

Good reply!

To the OP:
Your post is grossly offensive, especially to us Catholics that actually know the teachings of the Church…you must be SSPX…a schimatic group that claims all kinds of nonsense like this. My dad was SSPX…he too taught me that but I discovered by studying that this is not true. So why do you bring judgement upon yourself with such hateful things? Repent of it and confess your sin. It is grossly disordered thinking. Salvations comes through the Church of Christ for all. You insulting remarks are what keep the divide between charitable dialog. The Protestant group I belonged to for 17 years believes that you and all of these non-Christians are bound to hell. Just because you take it upon yourself doesn’t make it so. Even if you got millions to support you…you’d still be wrong. The Church does not teach what you say.

Well, it’s good to know Protestants aren’t the only ones with weird little groups of inbread haters. I think ours are weirder though, they do stuff like play with snakes, and God knows what else.

BTW we can at least say Mormons are not Protestant (so that whole Texas thing — not our fault)

 

[Jash]

That was me making fun of your insane zealotry. Didn’t you say all who do not agree with your form of Christian worship are damned. I’m thinking you have a crusader outfit in your closet


Go get em cowboy. Though I wouldn’t suggest riding in with a horse, they have improvised explosive devices these days (not to mention AK’s). Better get a tank … we can call it the M1 holy roller. I would suggest starting in the Mid East … us protestants will be a much harder bunch for you. We have most of the hill billies

Lol. I obviously didn’t explain myself very well did I? From my perspective being “damned” isn’t all that bad. In most instances it would mean being no worse off than we are now. We would continue to be separated from our Father in Heaven.

 

[Jash]

BTW we can at least say Mormons are not Protestant (so that whole Texas thing — not our fault)

References like this are why I don’t like the term “Mormon” it includes groups separate from the LDS church.

 

[panoikei]

Well, it’s good to know Protestants aren’t the only ones with weird little groups of inbread haters. I think ours are weirder though, they do stuff like play with snakes, and God knows what else.

BTW we can at least say Mormons are not Protestant (so that whole Texas thing — not our fault)

You brought up a side line interesting thing. You use the word Protestant as if it were a religion by itself. That’s just not true. I used to belong to a group that taught similar to the Catholic Church that there is only one Church and all else is just man made. Only we said the Catholics were apostate more than the others and blamed Catholics for creating so much heresy in the world. Not me really…just that particular group…I’ve always really been Catholic…even whe I didn’t admit it.

But as far as snake holders… that’s strange to most people. The SSPX are separated like Protestants…only they have valid sacraments…but they are in serious schism and someone may end up paying for it. They really have no reasons to remain separated anymore. They got the TLM for one thing… and many more things that are Traditiional in nature. Understanding the theology behind the words are what gets confusing. That’s why we follow the majesteriu…not an individual, whether bishop, priest, deacon or lay. They must be in communion with the Pope …the Bishop of Rome.

 

[sola_scriptura]

You brought up a side line interesting thing. You use the word Protestant as if it were a religion by itself. That’s just not true. I used to belong to a group that taught similar to the Catholic Church that there is only one Church and all else is just man made. Only we said the Catholics were apostate more than the others and blamed Catholics for creating so much heresy in the world. Not me really…just that particular group…I’ve always really been Catholic…even whe I didn’t admit it.

But as far as snake holders… that’s strange to most people. The SSPX are separated like Protestants…only they have valid sacraments…but they are in serious schism and someone may end up paying for it. They really have no reasons to remain separated anymore. They got the TLM for one thing… and many more things that are Traditiional in nature. Understanding the theology behind the words are what gets confusing. That’s why we follow the majesteriu…not an individual, whether bishop, priest, deacon or lay. They must be in communion with the Pope …the Bishop of Rome.

Well, we simply follow God and Christ, looking to Scripture for holy revelation. IMO it’s just more reliable. Paul does quite a nice job of laying out exactly how a church should be organized … why reinvent the wheel?

Give me a good orthodox leaning Presbyterian church & I’m good to go. However, I think the RCC is a fine church as are Lutherans, Baptists, Methodists, and a few others. However, there are certainly some churches that are just out of line with Apostolic teachings.

I’m not huge on the Pope idea, since for me I realize absolute power corrupts absolutely, like when we look back to Pope Leo X during the time of Martin Luther. Certainly the church is better than those days – but IMO that event is one that proves fallibility. I mean it’s hard to have a counter-reformation and change in reaction to protest and maintain infallibility? It just doesn’t make sense & I’m one of those guys who likes things to be logical.

 

[TriuneUnity]

I’m not huge on the Pope idea, since for me I realize absolute power corrupts absolutely, like when we look back to Pope Leo X during the time of Martin Luther. Certainly the church is better than those days – but IMO that event is one that proves fallibility. I mean it’s hard to have a counter-reformation and change in reaction to protest and maintain infallibility? It just doesn’t make sense & I’m one of those guys who likes things to be logical.

Bloody rational Calvinists