Teaching that Protestants are damned

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KenEOTE said:
Obviously this man is hurting. Something must have happened to him to turn him away from his Church. I find that most people who stop attending a service have been burned or hurt by judgemental people in the congregation the attend. Often they are immature in thier walk and wont go to the person but rather leave. We need to reach out to these people with love.
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Any congregation that is judgmental in this way is certainly not walking in the footsteps of Christ. Any good church of Christ will welcome even the worse of sinners with open arms.

Indeed if we’re not all sinners then Christ died for nothing.

Any good Pastor will always tell a church member in spiritual trouble that it’s the devil trying to use their guilt for sin to separate him or her from God and Christ – and they will always find love in the house of God. However, I don’t doubt that there are churches that are judgmental (which will reflect in the congregation). Any church that seeks only the self-righteous is no church of Jesus Christ. There is no such thing as self-righteousness, the only righteousness we can have is given to us by God. Failure to understand this is a total failure to understand the core tenant of our faith.

It’s one thing when one shrouds themselves in the clothes of Christianity and is willfully living a life of unrepentant aberrant sin. In such extreme cases (as we see with Paul in the early church) then perhaps rebuke is warranted. However, this is rarely the case (in fact I’ve never even seen it). Therefore, when one leaves a church because they feel the congregation or church leadership is overly judgmental the church must accept some responsibility, particularly in the case of a person who was attending regularly.

If they were coming to church at least almost every week & still had the idea that it wasn’t the self-righteous but the sinner Jesus came for, that represents an utter failure of the Pastor of that church. This is why it is so important for the congregation to be well versed in Scripture. We need to be able to identify erroneous teaching. We accept the authority of a Pastor, but even the Pastor cannot be above reproof (as long as it is done in love). This is what maintains the sanctity of the word, the priesthood of all believers.

Don’t get me wrong it ought to be a rare case, if ever, where a congregate reproofs a Pastor. If necessary, first you better be right, next it must be done with the utmost care and respect for his authority. This is why it’s great going to a church that has an active Bible study program, which is led by a Pastor (at least most of the time as the Pastor’s schedule allows). This is an environment where reproof can happen during discourse; where it doesn’t even seem like reproof.

When a Christian doesn’t wish to sit next to a guy who may have been a homeless drunk the week prior then they need to seriously reexamine Scripture and their own heart. If they think they are better then that person in the eyes of God then they don’t have a clue about the Christian faith.
 
ralphinal said:
The issue is one of culpability. Those who know and walk are damned. Those who do not know through no fault of their own (big words) have hope. Those who know but have other issues may or may not be in trouble.
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Then do everyone a favor and don’t tell them so that they can be assured paradise through ignorance! :rolleyes:
 
OP title said:
Teaching that Protestants are damned
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“Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”
Revelation 21:27

Throwing stones at glass houses, are we?
Being a Christian is easy. Practicing it, isn’t.
 
sola_scriptura said:
We do, however, recognize the priesthood of all believers …
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The idea that all beleivers are member of the priesthood - was this an idea that came about only after the Protestant reformation. For example, the Eastern ORthodox Church, which traces its lineage back to apostolic times, has a priesthood just like the RCC does. Why is that?
 
sola_scriptura said:
If they think they are better then that person in the eyes of God then they don’t have a clue about the Christian faith.
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I don;t think that this is entirely right. In one sense, all man are equal. However, in my personal opinion, it is more pleasing to God for a man to be a decent, honest Christian family man, than to be a drunk who abandons his family and becomes a thief and a drug dealer.
 
chrisb said:
Then do everyone a favor and don’t tell them so that they can be assured paradise through ignorance! :rolleyes:
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But what does “no fault of their own” mean? In this age, anyone can learn the truth. The level of Culpability has increased with computers, bookstores, and EWTN. The ability for someone to plead ignorance is not as easy as it once was.

We are required to teach ourselves. We are all searching. Further, we Catholics have an obligation to tell them the Truth!

We can be charitable, though…
 
ralphinal said:
But what does “no fault of their own” mean? In this age, anyone can learn the truth. The level of Culpability has increased with computers, bookstores, and EWTN. The ability for someone to plead ignorance is not as easy as it once was.

We are required to teach ourselves. We are all searching. Further, we Catholics have an obligation to tell them the Truth!

We can be charitable, though…
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So EWTN should advertise as “Bringing you authentic Catholic teaching and transmitting around the world to give Protestants enough knowledge to condemn themselves”?

LOL jk
 
ralphinal said:
But what does “no fault of their own” mean? In this age, anyone can learn the truth. The level of Culpability has increased with computers, bookstores, and EWTN. The ability for someone to plead ignorance is not as easy as it once was.

We are required to teach ourselves. We are all searching. Further, we Catholics have an obligation to tell them the Truth!

We can be charitable, though…
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I believe that is the point. It seems silly to make such extreme declarations and then rationalize a way out of them with this argument of ‘invincible ignorance’ and then have a mandate to liberate these ‘invincilbly ignorant’ individuals from a secure salvation borne out of their ignorance and replace it with an unsecured salvation borne out of knowledge. If they really have a sure thing with ‘invincible ignorance’ it seems the most generous thing to do is ‘not tell them’.
 
chrisb said:
I believe that is the point. It seems silly to make such extreme declarations and then rationalize a way out of them with this argument of ‘invincible ignorance’ and then have a mandate to liberate these ‘invincilbly ignorant’ individuals from a secure salvation borne out of their ignorance and replace it with an unsecured salvation borne out of knowledge. If they really have a sure thing with ‘invincible ignorance’ it seems the most generous thing to do is ‘not tell them’.
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Who ever said it was a “sure thing”? 🤷 Obviously it’s more likely for someone within the Catholic Church to reach heaven with the sacraments and support found within the Church. That’s the whole point of the Great Commission. All the Church says is that there is HOPE that those outside her visible boundaries can be saved.
 
TriuneUnity said:
So EWTN should advertise as “Bringing you authentic Catholic teaching and transmitting around the world to give Protestants enough knowledge to condemn themselves”?

LOL jk
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You took it a step too far. First, CAtholics have to teach. Second, people have a requirement to form their own conscience. If someone is honest with themselves on the road to God, eventually they must examin what we claim. That is what is different today. All of the teachings of the Catholic Church are easy to get in almost any language. If someone who claims to be seeking God refuses to look at it, they are in trouble. Now, someone who honestly studies with an open mind and does not find it compelling is another case.
 
chrisb said:
I believe that is the point. It seems silly to make such extreme declarations and then rationalize a way out of them with this argument of ‘invincible ignorance’ and then have a mandate to liberate these ‘invincilbly ignorant’ individuals from a secure salvation borne out of their ignorance and replace it with an unsecured salvation borne out of knowledge. If they really have a sure thing with ‘invincible ignorance’ it seems the most generous thing to do is ‘not tell them’.
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Only Jesus said to make beleivers out of all nations. We MUST tell them, even if it puts them at risk.
 
IMHO I will leave this to the mercy of God. He and He alone knows the hearts and mind of His children.

I will follow to the best of my ability to live as His Church teaches us. I will pray for those who do not know the Church. I will try to show forth God’s love. But, I will not not presume to know God’s judgement in regard to the journey each soul must travel.
 
bobzills said:
I don;t think that this is entirely right. In one sense, all man are equal. However, in my personal opinion, it is more pleasing to God for a man to be a decent, honest Christian family man, than to be a drunk who abandons his family and becomes a thief and a drug dealer.
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I wasn’t referring to a person who still lives in such a state – but rather one who is sitting in the pew next to you (who is at least trying to repent).

However, we are not to judge even those who are now in their sins. Your good nature and well disciplined disposition had nothing to do with God’s decision to graft you into the body of Christ. We learn that breaking one commandment is the same as breaking them all (with the exception of what John termed as sin that leads to death, which Jesus describes as the “unforgivable sin” and Hebrews 6 also discusses).

Jesus asks who will toss the first stone? The Pharisees loved throwing stones (both figuratively and in a real sense).

By taking the attitude that the good Christian family man is better than the drunk who abandons his family you are obstructing the door to God’s love for the drunkard you refer to. This is the lesson we learn in the prodigal son. You’re taking the same position that the older son, who stayed in the fathers house while his brother went off and became a heathen, did. He didn’t think his brother deserved to be welcomed back as a son. In fact even the prodigal son didn’t think he was worthy to come back into the house of his father, his initial intention was to beg his father to be among the slaves in the household. However, the father – our glorious God sees things much differently.

The father threw a party in the prodigal sons name, fitted him with the finest robe, in fact when he saw the son in the distance he went running to embrace him. This is our God.

You think that by advancing a view that the “good Christian man” is somehow better than the lost son you will inspire obedience, when indeed the opposite is true. This is our carnal pharisaic mind speaking not God. We want to be among the better the more fit; and we juxtapose that unto God. We hold those thoughts because of our vanity – which is our human nature.

Imagine for a moment being the drunkard who lost everything. He wants to repent but he’s not exactly enthusiastic about being a second class citizen in his church. Who would desire to initiate a fellowship with those who he knows will look down their noses at him? How are those types any different than the Pharisees of old that Jesus dealt with? This is the core of Christianity.
 
sola_scriptura said:
We learn that breaking one commandment is the same as breaking them all …
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I disagree with that.
Let me give an example. A person goes to a local park and there is a sign saying do not pick the flowers. However, he is overcome by the beauty and aroma of the flowers and he picks one, and thereby commits a sin against the Commandment:Thou shalt not steal.
A second person kidnaps and tortures young people to enslave them to a life of enslaved drug use, torture, beatings and prostitiution. They are beaten and tortured every day and he kills several of them by these terrible beatings.
In my personal opinion, the picking of a flower in a park is a much lesser (or venial sin) sin than the torture of innocent people. When a person is overcome by the beauty and aroma of a flower, and picks one blossom in the local park, I don’t think that this sin would condemn him to guilt of breaking all the commandments including the horrific sin committed by the second person.
 
bobzills said:
I disagree with that.
Let me give an example. A person goes to a local park and there is a sign saying do not pick the flowers. However, he is overcome by the beauty and aroma of the flowers and he picks one, and thereby commits a sin against the Commandment:Thou shalt not steal.
A second person kidnaps and tortures young people to enslave them to a life of enslaved drug use, torture, beatings and prostitiution. They are beaten and tortured every day and he kills several of them by these terrible beatings.
In my personal opinion, the picking of a flower in a park is a much lesser (or venial sin) sin than the torture of innocent people. When a person is overcome by the beauty and aroma of a flower, and picks one blossom in the local park, I don’t think that this sin would condemn him to guilt of breaking all the commandments including the horrific sin committed by the second person.
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From a societal standpoint I of course agree, however, as James states:

For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point is guilty of breaking all of it (James 2:10).

I like James 2 quite a bit (I guess accept for verse 10 🙂 ). It’s really a great chapter on how we should treat each others (particular other Christians).

However, we have to reconcile this point. A saved Christian who has an indwelling of the Spirit is reborn of God. They will not commit some heinous crime. In fact they probably won’t even wrongfully take a flower from the park. They might get angry from time to time, they may have impure thoughts, etc. We will not be perfect, but we have an advocate before God.

As long as we rely on God for our spiritual nourishment He will shield us from sin. I think James said what he said to impart the message that we are all equal before God, from the worse sinner to the best behaved among us. However, that still does not mean we can sin, we are to avoid sin, even taking the flower from the park. Indeed depending on our subjective intent I would say that it is possible a minor sin might count against more than a serious sin. If we commit a serious sin in a moment of uncontrolled rage compared to stealing a flower with all our wits about us I would say there just might be more culpability for stealing the flower?

Anyways …

Blessings
 
bobzills said:
I disagree with that.
Let me give an example. A person goes to a local park and there is a sign saying do not pick the flowers. However, he is overcome by the beauty and aroma of the flowers and he picks one, and thereby commits a sin against the Commandment:Thou shalt not steal.
A second person kidnaps and tortures young people to enslave them to a life of enslaved drug use, torture, beatings and prostitiution. They are beaten and tortured every day and he kills several of them by these terrible beatings.
In my personal opinion, the picking of a flower in a park is a much lesser (or venial sin) sin than the torture of innocent people. When a person is overcome by the beauty and aroma of a flower, and picks one blossom in the local park, I don’t think that this sin would condemn him to guilt of breaking all the commandments including the horrific sin committed by the second person.
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So you disagree with the teachings of Christ?
 
sola_scriptura said:
If we commit a serious sin in a moment of uncontrolled rage compared to stealing a flower with all our wits about us I would say there just might be more culpability for stealing the flower?
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I beleive that you have to open your eyes to the distinction between venial and mortal sin.
 
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