R
RobHom
Guest
Here is a link to the Baltimore Catechism:
catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/
The whole Catechism is there!
- Status
catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/
The whole Catechism is there!
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
How would you classify the distinction?
John, in his epistle, said there is sin that “leads to death” and sin that does not. He also said we can ask a fellow believer to pray for us or (in a separate section) confess our sins directly to Christ. However, when John described “sin that leads to death” he inferred that it was sin, which could not be forgiven. Here’s the entire discourse by John:
If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death (1 John 5:16-17).
So John says “sin that leads to death” essentially cannot be forgiven. He doesn’t advise we even pray for such a person, since they’re apparently doomed.
So what is this unforgivable sin? Is it breaking the commandments (both the ten Old Testament commandments & the many commandments enumerated in the New Testament)? The fact is the commandments are a list of sins, so to say violating a commandment is a mortal sin, while other sins are venial is a misnomer because there are no other sins outside of the commandments. So this unforgivable sin must mean something else.
Of course Jesus provides the answer. The only sin described as “unforgivable” is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (see Luke 12:10,.Mark 3:29, and Matt. 12:31-32).
However, this doesn’t mean that we may go on living a life of sin once saved. In fact remaining in a life of sin is witness that one is not saved.
R
RobHom
Guest
Here is a slightly different take on the issue, though you will find probably that you are quite in agreement…
**16 “A sin which is not to death”… It is hard to determine what St. John here calls a sin which is not to death, and a sin which is unto death. The difference can not be the same as betwixt sins that are called venial and mortal: for he says, that if a man pray for his brother, who commits a sin that is not to death, life shall be given him: therefore such a one had before lost the life of grace, and been guilty of what is commonly called a mortal sin. And when he speaks of a sin that is unto death, and adds these words, for that I say not that any man ask, it cannot be supposed that St. John would say this of every mortal sin, but only of some heinous sins, which are very seldom remitted, because such sinners very seldom repent. By a sin therefore which is unto death, interpreters commonly understand a wilfull apostasy from the faith, and from the known truth, when a sinner, hardened by his own ingratitude, becomes deaf to all admonitions, will do nothing for himself, but runs on to a final impenitence. Nor yet does St. John say, that such a sin is never remitted, or cannot be remitted, but only has these words, for that I say not that any man ask the remission: that is, though we must pray for all sinners whatsoever, yet men can not pray for such sinners with such a confidence of obtaining always their petitions, as St. John said before, ver. 14. Whatever exposition we follow on this verse, our faith teacheth us from the holy scriptures, that God desires not the death of any sinner, but that he be converted and live, Ezech. 33. 11. Though men’s sins be as red as scarlet, they shall become as white as snow, Isa. 3. 18. It is the will of God that every one come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved. There is no sin so great but which God is willing to forgive, and has left a power in his church to remit the most enormous sins: so that no sinner need despair of pardon, nor will any sinner perish, but by his own fault.
16 “A sin unto death”… Some understand this of final impenitence, or of dying in mortal sin; which is the only sin that never can be remitted. But, it is probable, he may also comprise under this name, the sin of apostasy from the faith, and some other such heinous sins as are seldom and hardly remitted: and therefore he gives little encouragement, to such as pray for these sinners, to expect what they ask.
** From here: drbo.org/chapter/69005.htm
And on that you will find that Catholics agree, because that is what we believe as well. But, there is also the sin that cannot be forgiven…and that is caused when one dies in with mortal sins on their soul.
On that we agree very much as well!!
Sin is sin, however…to give a little better idea of the difference between mortal and venial sins…
Mortal sin: Adultery, Murder, and other serious sins or crimes.
Venial sin: Small things that are not right. Being uncharitable, taking something not yours that is minor in nature or cost.
Pssst…I hope you take this as a compliment…but you sounded kind of “Catholic” in your post!
Peace!
S
Sabda
Guest
of course that is your interpretation.
There are other translations, older ones, of the Bible which do not say deadly sin but mortal sin.I have to ask first what does John mean by deadly in this instance? I ask this because it is vital to understanding the points of view here.
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
Well, mortal and deadly are synonymous, but be that as it may there is only one “unforgivable sin” revealed by Christ.of course that is your interpretation.
I have to ask first what does John mean by deadly in this instance? I ask this because it is vital to understanding the points of view here.
As far as a “yardstick” for sin, James is quite clear in stating that violating one commandment is tantamount to violating them all. The implication is obvious – both from the standpoint of one who violates a commandment and one who stands in judgment of another who violates the commandments. John of course never defines mortal sin, beyond acknowledging it exists. Hebrews discusses the concept of willful sin and living a life of sin.
The question I have for you is how would you define a mortal sin and how would you define a venial sin?
B
bobzills
Guest
I gave you a very simple example.
If you pick a flower in a park, you have committed a venial sin and you may go to purgatory for that, unless you have received the necessary indulgences and remission of sin as promised by the Church. The punishment of purgatory is severe, but it is not eternal, and you will in the end, find yourself cleansed and then be able to enter heaven.
the other sin that I mentioned is a mortal sin, and if you die with this mortal sin on your soul, and you are unrepentant, then you will go to hell, which is an eternal punishment.
That is the distinction.
If a person is unrepentant and he has a venial sin on his soul when he dies, he will go to purgatory. If a person is unrepentant and he has a mortal sin on his soul when he dies, he will go to hell.
So when you die, you go to heaven, hell or purgatory. That is the distinction.
R
RobHom
Guest
Simple…
Mortal Sin: Murder, Adultery, etc…
Venial Sin: Cursing, Swiping a pencil, etc…
“Cursing” however…is not the same as “Cursing the Holy Spirit”, which is the deadliest of all sins.
Can you really think that a God who offers us salvation as he has, would deny a saved person salvation for a minor sin?
Mortal Sin: Murder, Adultery, etc…
Venial Sin: Cursing, Swiping a pencil, etc…
“Cursing” however…is not the same as “Cursing the Holy Spirit”, which is the deadliest of all sins.
Can you really think that a God who offers us salvation as he has, would deny a saved person salvation for a minor sin?
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
Where do we get the list from?
I wouldn’t say God would deny salvation for even the most egregious sin let alone a minor one. Jesus didn’t come down for the self-righteous He came for the sinner. Those who deny that they are sinners really can’t repent can they? What ever would they be repenting for if they don’t think they’re depraved?
I wouldn’t say God would deny salvation for even the most egregious sin let alone a minor one. Jesus didn’t come down for the self-righteous He came for the sinner. Those who deny that they are sinners really can’t repent can they? What ever would they be repenting for if they don’t think they’re depraved?
R
RobHom
Guest
I honestly don’t know…I’ll have to see if I can find anything like that. I was recounting what I was taught as a child.
I think this where we have a slight divergence of thought. While I can agree…to some extent, our belief is that if you die with mortal sins on your soul, and having not confessed, you will go to hell. With venial sin on your soul, unconfessed, you will end up in purgatory. We do not believe that a sinner who has confessed will be sent to hell. We believe that confession and absolution makes all right. Absolution comes from God…its the forgiving us for our sins that we have confessed. It is they who are hardhearted who face the worst.
B
bobzills
Guest
You might try reading the Holy Scriptures and the Gospels. For example, according to Matthew 25:41 Then He shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
I think it is a good idea to follow Holy Scripture on this.
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
Here’s where we diverge in thought. The idea that sin will keep us apart from God is why Jesus died in the first place. It wasn’t the Pharisees, who were good Jews, that Jesus embraced, it was the outcasts, the worse sinners. The thief on the cross who lived a life of unrepentant sin and was saved and justified and went to directly to heaven – no pit stop in this place you call purgatory.
Now do I sanction sin? To the contrary. However, your view supposes that we can avoid sin through our own diligence and will power. While I realize that only God can regenerate the sinner and empower him or her to avoid sin. We are the branch and as long as we solely look to the root for our nourishment we cannot fail. It is when we look to ourselves or other sources we will stumble.
Those reborn of God will not remain in a life of sin – if they do they weren’t saved in the first place. The natural result of being saved is death of the old us and a birth of the new us.
Now do I sanction sin? To the contrary. However, your view supposes that we can avoid sin through our own diligence and will power. While I realize that only God can regenerate the sinner and empower him or her to avoid sin. We are the branch and as long as we solely look to the root for our nourishment we cannot fail. It is when we look to ourselves or other sources we will stumble.
Those reborn of God will not remain in a life of sin – if they do they weren’t saved in the first place. The natural result of being saved is death of the old us and a birth of the new us.
R
ralphinal
Guest
The lists of mortal and venial sin comes from the breakdown of what is mortal and what is venial based on several criteria.
First, all sin damages our relationship with God (everyone knows that) but all sin also damages our relationships with others (many people do not see that). A sin that causes major damage in either relationship automatically becomes grave matter (very serious). Now, if that grave matter is something that we know is serious and we freely choose to do it, it is a mortal sin. Otherwise, it is not.
Killing someone is the most damage you can do to the relationship that you have with them. FUrther, you are taking away that gift from God that is their life. If, for example, you are a police man and you have a choice to either shoot someone or allow and innocent to be killed, and you choose to shoot them, you have not freely chosen that act. You know that it was serious, but you had a moral obligation to protect the other person. Someone who chooses murder in cold blood however is most assuradly guilty.
Now, keeping that in mind, look at the passage from John’s letter. Someone who freely chooses a sin, knowing that it is a sin, that damages both their relationship with God AND their relationship with other people is in a state that only God can save them.
There you go. Next question
First, all sin damages our relationship with God (everyone knows that) but all sin also damages our relationships with others (many people do not see that). A sin that causes major damage in either relationship automatically becomes grave matter (very serious). Now, if that grave matter is something that we know is serious and we freely choose to do it, it is a mortal sin. Otherwise, it is not.
Killing someone is the most damage you can do to the relationship that you have with them. FUrther, you are taking away that gift from God that is their life. If, for example, you are a police man and you have a choice to either shoot someone or allow and innocent to be killed, and you choose to shoot them, you have not freely chosen that act. You know that it was serious, but you had a moral obligation to protect the other person. Someone who chooses murder in cold blood however is most assuradly guilty.
Now, keeping that in mind, look at the passage from John’s letter. Someone who freely chooses a sin, knowing that it is a sin, that damages both their relationship with God AND their relationship with other people is in a state that only God can save them.
There you go. Next question
S
Sabda
Guest
sola_scriptura,
I asked you the question about deadly because there are many Protestants who believe that the deadly in this instances refers to physical death. Is that how you see it? From the Catholic stand point the death in this instance is not a physical death but a spiritual death. We all die a physical death but not all of us will die a spiritual death. Spiritual death is what happens to you when you commit a mortal sin. As our children are taught, when you commit a venial sin you make the life of Christ in you sick. When you commit a mortal sin you kill, crucify the life of Christ in you. As we already know St. John does make a distinction between deadly sin and sin that is not deadly.
In regard to your question you presented to me above. You do realize that our man made national, state, and local laws acknowledge the different degrees of wrong doing. A person who hits someone is punished for hitting someone. A person who kills someone is also punished. Do they receive the same type of punishment? No they don’t. This is the difference in venial and mortal sin. We are punished regardless if the sin is venial or mortal. The Israelites also acknowledged the different degrees of sins. They did not treat all sins the same.
As far as Purgatory goes.
You clearly don’t understand Purgatory. Purgatory is not the road you take to hell. It is the road you take to heaven. You must pass though Purgatory to get to heaven. This is because Purgatory is the all consuming fire of God’s love and if you want to stand in his presence you must pass though that fire. The Bible clearly teaches that nothing unclean can enter into to it. We believe the “it” is Heaven. We are all sinners we all die in some degree of sin. In the Old Testament it states that, paraphrasing here, “though our sins be scarlet they are made white as snow.” We must be white as snow to enter Heaven. The Lord cleanses us of all sin. He makes us white as snow. Yes, we do have to be repentant for what we have done wrong. St. Paul in 1 Corthinians gives one of the best descriptions of Purgatory in the whole Bible.
With that understanding read it again.
I asked you the question about deadly because there are many Protestants who believe that the deadly in this instances refers to physical death. Is that how you see it? From the Catholic stand point the death in this instance is not a physical death but a spiritual death. We all die a physical death but not all of us will die a spiritual death. Spiritual death is what happens to you when you commit a mortal sin. As our children are taught, when you commit a venial sin you make the life of Christ in you sick. When you commit a mortal sin you kill, crucify the life of Christ in you. As we already know St. John does make a distinction between deadly sin and sin that is not deadly.
In regard to your question you presented to me above. You do realize that our man made national, state, and local laws acknowledge the different degrees of wrong doing. A person who hits someone is punished for hitting someone. A person who kills someone is also punished. Do they receive the same type of punishment? No they don’t. This is the difference in venial and mortal sin. We are punished regardless if the sin is venial or mortal. The Israelites also acknowledged the different degrees of sins. They did not treat all sins the same.
As far as Purgatory goes.
You clearly don’t understand Purgatory. Purgatory is not the road you take to hell. It is the road you take to heaven. You must pass though Purgatory to get to heaven. This is because Purgatory is the all consuming fire of God’s love and if you want to stand in his presence you must pass though that fire. The Bible clearly teaches that nothing unclean can enter into to it. We believe the “it” is Heaven. We are all sinners we all die in some degree of sin. In the Old Testament it states that, paraphrasing here, “though our sins be scarlet they are made white as snow.” We must be white as snow to enter Heaven. The Lord cleanses us of all sin. He makes us white as snow. Yes, we do have to be repentant for what we have done wrong. St. Paul in 1 Corthinians gives one of the best descriptions of Purgatory in the whole Bible.
Notice the very last sentence? The person’s work is burned up and they suffer loss but they are SAVED but only as though fire. In Strong’s concordance the word used here in the Greek for fire is pur. It does mean fire but it also has a biblical meaning. That meaning is “the holiness of God”.
With that understanding read it again.
The person is purified. That is exactly what Purgatory is. It’s a process of purification so that we can enter Heaven.
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
Sabda:
Of course there’s a distinction here. The pertinent verses are 14 & 15:
**If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:14-15).**
We see one group is saved and rewarded outright. The other group is saved but only as one escaping through the flames. Does this indicate a purgatory?
Here’s some commentary:
*The ministers about whom the Corinthians contended, were only instruments used by God. We should not put ministers into the place of God. He that planteth and he that watereth are one, employed by one Master, trusted with the same revelation, busied in one work, and engaged in one design. They have their different gifts from one and the same Spirit, for the very same purposes; and should carry on the same design heartily. Those who work hardest shall fare best. Those who are most
faithful shall have the greatest reward. They work together with God, in promoting the purposes of his glory, and the salvation of precious souls; and He who knows their work, will take care they do not labour in vain. They are employed in his husbandry and building; and He will carefully look over them. (1Co 3:10-15)*
biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/index.php?action=getCommentaryText&cid=54&source=2&seq=i.53.3.2
Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor (verse 8).
The message here seems to be that we are saved by faith – but there is a measure of our fruits.
In the first instance the refining process occurs here on earth:
*For You have tried us, O God;
You have refined us as silver is refined (Psalm 66:10).
so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:7).*
In addition there is a judgment based on works and deeds at judgment – but this is not something the elect will endure.
I will research this more – but so far I don’t see how we can take these few words and build a doctrine of purgatory around them?
Here’s a good commentary by Calvin on Psalm 66:10
*10. For thou, O God! hast proved us. We may read, Though thou, O God! etc., and then the passage comes in as a qualification of what went before, and is brought forward by the Psalmist to enhance the goodness of God, who had delivered them from such severe calamities. But there is another object which I consider him to have in view, and this is the alleviation of the grief of God’s people, by setting before them the comfort suggested by the words which follow. When visited with affliction, it is of great importance that we should consider it as coming from God, and as expressly intended for our good. It is in reference to this that the Psalmist speaks of their having been proved and tried. At the same time, while he adverts to God’s trying his children with the view of purging away their sin, as dross is expelled from the silver by fire, he would intimate, also, that trial had been made of their patience. The figure implies that their probation had been severe; for silver is cast repeatedly into the furnace. They express themselves thankful to God, that, while proved with affliction, they had not been destroyed by it; but that their affliction was both varied and very severe, appears not only from the metaphor, but from the whole context, where they speak of having been cast into the net, being reduced to straits, men riding over their heads, and of being brought through shipwreck and conflagration. *
Moreover, you were right to point to the meaning of the Greek word used for fire. They are purged through the mercy of God (not through some sort of purgatory):
Calvin on 1 Cor. 3:15
*He himself will be saved, etc. It is certain that Paul speaks of those who, while always retaining the foundations, mix hay with gold, stubble with silver, and wood with precious stones – that is, those who build upon Christ, but in consequence of the weakness of the flesh, admit something that is man’s, or through ignorance turn aside to some extent from the strict purity of God’s word. Such were many of the saints, Cyprian, Ambrose, Augustine, and the like. Add to these, if you choose, from those of later times, Gregory and Bernard, and others of that stamp, who, while they had it as their object to build upon Christ, did nevertheless often deviate from the right system of building. Such persons, Paul says, could be saved, but on this condition – if the Lord wiped away their ignorance, and purged them from all dross.
This is the meaning of rim clause so as by fire. He means, therefore, to intimate, that he does not take away from them the hope of salvation, provided they willingly submit to the loss of their labor, and are purged by the mercy of God, as gold is refined in the furnace. Farther, although God sometimes purges his own people by afflictions, yet here by the name of fire, I understand the touchstone of the Spirit, by which the Lord corrects and removes the ignorance of his people, by which they were for a time held captive. I am aware, indeed, that, many refer this to the cross,15 but I am confident that my interpretation will please all that are of sound judgment.*
biblestudyguide.org/comment/calvin/comm_vol39/htm/x.iii.htm
I omitted Calvin’s view of Purgatory because it is rather harsh when dealing with the church (and I felt it inappropriate to post it here). Of course if you would like to read it a link is provided.
Of course there’s a distinction here. The pertinent verses are 14 & 15:
**If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire (1 Cor. 3:14-15).**
We see one group is saved and rewarded outright. The other group is saved but only as one escaping through the flames. Does this indicate a purgatory?
Here’s some commentary:
*The ministers about whom the Corinthians contended, were only instruments used by God. We should not put ministers into the place of God. He that planteth and he that watereth are one, employed by one Master, trusted with the same revelation, busied in one work, and engaged in one design. They have their different gifts from one and the same Spirit, for the very same purposes; and should carry on the same design heartily. Those who work hardest shall fare best. Those who are most
faithful shall have the greatest reward. They work together with God, in promoting the purposes of his glory, and the salvation of precious souls; and He who knows their work, will take care they do not labour in vain. They are employed in his husbandry and building; and He will carefully look over them. (1Co 3:10-15)*
biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/index.php?action=getCommentaryText&cid=54&source=2&seq=i.53.3.2
Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor (verse 8).
The message here seems to be that we are saved by faith – but there is a measure of our fruits.
In the first instance the refining process occurs here on earth:
*For You have tried us, O God;
You have refined us as silver is refined (Psalm 66:10).
so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 1:7).*
In addition there is a judgment based on works and deeds at judgment – but this is not something the elect will endure.
I will research this more – but so far I don’t see how we can take these few words and build a doctrine of purgatory around them?
Here’s a good commentary by Calvin on Psalm 66:10
*10. For thou, O God! hast proved us. We may read, Though thou, O God! etc., and then the passage comes in as a qualification of what went before, and is brought forward by the Psalmist to enhance the goodness of God, who had delivered them from such severe calamities. But there is another object which I consider him to have in view, and this is the alleviation of the grief of God’s people, by setting before them the comfort suggested by the words which follow. When visited with affliction, it is of great importance that we should consider it as coming from God, and as expressly intended for our good. It is in reference to this that the Psalmist speaks of their having been proved and tried. At the same time, while he adverts to God’s trying his children with the view of purging away their sin, as dross is expelled from the silver by fire, he would intimate, also, that trial had been made of their patience. The figure implies that their probation had been severe; for silver is cast repeatedly into the furnace. They express themselves thankful to God, that, while proved with affliction, they had not been destroyed by it; but that their affliction was both varied and very severe, appears not only from the metaphor, but from the whole context, where they speak of having been cast into the net, being reduced to straits, men riding over their heads, and of being brought through shipwreck and conflagration. *
Moreover, you were right to point to the meaning of the Greek word used for fire. They are purged through the mercy of God (not through some sort of purgatory):
Calvin on 1 Cor. 3:15
*He himself will be saved, etc. It is certain that Paul speaks of those who, while always retaining the foundations, mix hay with gold, stubble with silver, and wood with precious stones – that is, those who build upon Christ, but in consequence of the weakness of the flesh, admit something that is man’s, or through ignorance turn aside to some extent from the strict purity of God’s word. Such were many of the saints, Cyprian, Ambrose, Augustine, and the like. Add to these, if you choose, from those of later times, Gregory and Bernard, and others of that stamp, who, while they had it as their object to build upon Christ, did nevertheless often deviate from the right system of building. Such persons, Paul says, could be saved, but on this condition – if the Lord wiped away their ignorance, and purged them from all dross.
This is the meaning of rim clause so as by fire. He means, therefore, to intimate, that he does not take away from them the hope of salvation, provided they willingly submit to the loss of their labor, and are purged by the mercy of God, as gold is refined in the furnace. Farther, although God sometimes purges his own people by afflictions, yet here by the name of fire, I understand the touchstone of the Spirit, by which the Lord corrects and removes the ignorance of his people, by which they were for a time held captive. I am aware, indeed, that, many refer this to the cross,15 but I am confident that my interpretation will please all that are of sound judgment.*
biblestudyguide.org/comment/calvin/comm_vol39/htm/x.iii.htm
I omitted Calvin’s view of Purgatory because it is rather harsh when dealing with the church (and I felt it inappropriate to post it here). Of course if you would like to read it a link is provided.
D
DixiesFinest
Guest
Purgatory is the Mercy of God. Rather than cast us into hell, for as we know nothing unclean may enter Heaven and the Lord knows we are not perfect, God in His mercy purges us of any remaining sin or corruption.
S
Sabda
Guest
sola_scriptura,
Your whole post spoke of a belief in Purgatory even though you are trying your best to deny it.
It’s really quite simple.
Are you a sinner here on earth, even at your last moment on earth?
Will you be sinless when you get to heaven?
What is that process called were you go from being a sinner to sinless?
Purgatory is the state were we are purified, and purged of our sins and our tendencies to sin. Purgatory is more of a state than a place. People who suffer from terminal cancer can be said to be going though a type of Purgatory. Purgatory is not about God’s Judgement but about His Mercy. He truly is that merciful. Think about this. If you can not be purged/purified of your sins than what is the alternative?
Your whole post spoke of a belief in Purgatory even though you are trying your best to deny it.
It’s really quite simple.
Are you a sinner here on earth, even at your last moment on earth?
Will you be sinless when you get to heaven?
What is that process called were you go from being a sinner to sinless?
Purgatory is the state were we are purified, and purged of our sins and our tendencies to sin. Purgatory is more of a state than a place. People who suffer from terminal cancer can be said to be going though a type of Purgatory. Purgatory is not about God’s Judgement but about His Mercy. He truly is that merciful. Think about this. If you can not be purged/purified of your sins than what is the alternative?
W
WithoutCatholic
Guest
You don’t suppose it would be possible to re-fight the Thirty Years’ War, do you? :banghead:
*See: *
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years’_War
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
Then describe this place to me? If you say it is by the mercy of God that His children will be purified (to this point I agree) then how do you propose this purification takes place?
Our depravity is not only of the flesh, but also the spirit in the sense that unless regenerated by God we are spiritually discerned. When regenerated our spirit is reborn of God. However, there can never be perfection while in the flesh. There is no recorded case of a sinless man save Jesus; even Paul was not perfect. However, our righteousness, our perfection is imputed by God. By grace through faith. Jesus forgives all of our sins, not almost all of them. It is one sacrifice for all sins past or future.
Therefore there is no punishment, no fire by which we become further purified. God purifies us through His mercy (by grace). Even our faith is given by God by His gracious mercy.
So I ask again what does purgatory mean? What is this process of purification by fire that you speak of? If you say it is by tormenting flames that we are purified than I object. If you say it is by mercy that all sinners in Christ are purified then I say Amen. However, there is no separate place, no intermediary pit stop or purification room (like a shower before swimming in our gym’s pool). When the thief who died next to our Lord was saved, Jesus, through an act of glorious mercy told that man he would join Him in paradise that day. This man, a sinners sinner, dying the death of a criminal – was justified, sanctified, and glorified in a single instant. The reason I find this place called purgatory alien to the Gospel of Christ is largely because of how it is defined by your church. It seems to do injury to the bedrock of our faith — justification by faith.
B
bobzills
Guest
The purification of Purgatory is by fire, similar to the fire of hell, but it will not be eternal.
S
sola_scriptura
Guest
This is false. How can anyone think a merciful God would torture His children in such a way?
- Status