Teaching that Protestants are damned

[DixiesFinest]

This is false. How can anyone think a merciful God would torture His children in such a way?

The Angel burned the lips of Isaiah with a hot coal before he could stand before God. He purged him of his sins, for otherwise he would drop dead before God’s holiness.

But really, how could God torture him so? God is so unfair sometimes…

 

[bobzills]

This is false. How can anyone think a merciful God would torture His children in such a way?

Then how do you explain the words of Our Lord::
Matthew 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Then how do you explain the words of Our Lord::
Matthew 25:41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

Is the devil or his angels God’s children?

 

[sola_scriptura]

The Angel burned the lips of Isaiah with a hot coal before he could stand before God. He purged him of his sins, for otherwise he would drop dead before God’s holiness.

But really, how could God torture him so? God is so unfair sometimes…

That’s a better argument:

5 “Woe to me!” I cried. “I am ruined! For I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips, and my eyes have seen the King, the LORD Almighty.”

6 Then one of the seraphs flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.” (Isaiah 6:5-7).

However, question – who came after the time of Isaiah to atone for our sins?

 

[bobzills]

Is the devil or his angels God’s children?

You are suppposed to be sola scriptura. But Scriptures clearly indicate that those who do not follow the words of Christ as indicated in Matthew, will depart into hell. You appear to deny the words of Scripture which do not agree with your preconceived notions of theological truths.

 

[sola_scriptura]

You are suppposed to be sola scriptura. But Scriptures clearly indicate that those who do not follow the words of Christ as indicated in Matthew, will depart into hell. You appear to deny the words of Scripture which do not agree with your preconceived notions of theological truths.

Not exactly true but your point is a fair one. Overall Calvin would strongly agree with you. He would say that if one is not predestined to heaven then logically they are predestined to hell.

Even the RCC would agree that predestination is a fact – the split occurs regarding the role of human free will in the economy of salvation. Also most would not say as Calvin did – that God also predestines to hell.

However, suffice it to say the RCC and Calvin both agreed on hell and damnation.

My position is one of certainty regarding the status of the elect but a certain amount of uncertainty regarding the status of whom is identified as the reprobate. I do not deny that only through faith in Christ can we be saved – this would be to deny everything.

However, I also accept that God said He wants all men to be saved. I do not accept the typical reformed explanation (which btw was not exactly shared by Calvin either). I think all means all people not all types of men.

I merely struggle with the fact that God will not get everything He wants; so in this regard I side with Luther. I think this is a divine mystery, which we were only given hints at. There is no doubt that the elect are special to God – what of everyone else, we are also taught that we are not to say who will ascend to heaven and who will go to hell – so I simply don’t.

 

[bobzills]

Not exactly true but your point is a fair one. Overall Calvin would strongly agree with you. He would say that if one is not predestined to heaven then logically they are predestined to hell.

Even the RCC would agree that predestination is a fact – the split occurs regarding the role of human free will in the economy of salvation. Also most would not say as Calvin did – that God also predestines to hell.

However, suffice it to say the RCC and Calvin both agreed on hell and damnation.

My position is one of certainty regarding the status of the elect but a certain amount of uncertainty regarding the status of whom is identified as the reprobate. I do not deny that only through faith in Christ can we be saved – this would be to deny everything.

However, I also accept that God said He wants all men to be saved. I do not accept the typical reformed explanation (which btw was not exactly shared by Calvin either). I think all means all people not all types of men.

I merely struggle with the fact that God will not get everything He wants; so in this regard I side with Luther. I think this is a divine mystery, which we were only given hints at. There is no doubt that the elect are special to God – what of everyone else, we are also taught that we are not to say who will ascend to heaven and who will go to hell – so I simply don’t.

Why do you care about what some Protestant reformer says/ If you are sola scriputre, why don;t you believe and trust in the Holy Scriptures as Catholics do?
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then **he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire **which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

 

[Mickey]

This is false. How can anyone think a merciful God would torture His children in such a way?

I finally agree with sola_scriptura.

 

[sola_scriptura]

Why do you care about what some Protestant reformer says/ If you are sola scriputre, why don;t you believe and trust in the Holy Scriptures as Catholics do?
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and you took me in:

36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me. 37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? 39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? 40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then **he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire **which was prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? 45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

I would agree that those who openly reject our Lord and seek to put His name to shame will face God’s wrath, so it written as you note.

However, what of those who never hear the word?

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? (Romans 10:14).

Also:

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time (1 Timothy 2:3-6, see also 1 Tim. 4:10).

Like I said you’re position is what Scripture overwhelmingly states, and one I generally accept. However, there seems to be these little hints peppered in Scripture that God will achieve everything He wants, which is to save all men.

Karl Barth held to this sort of hypothetical universalism. I generally disagree with how Barth framed the idea of predestination, but he is not alone in his theory of hypothetical universalism. Many Catholic theologians agree the destiny of the reprobate is an open question (even your catechism doesn’t absolutely deny this possibility). Luther didn’t make any absolute statements in this regard, also leaving it an open question.

God has always surprised us with His mercy. Adam and Eve deserved destruction, yet were not destroyed. The Jews deserved destruction yet were preserved. We all deserve destruction yet there is grace. God has longsuffering for the vessels made for destruction. They show us His power, yet there’s always this outstretched hand of mercy. I think this is a mystery. I also think the Spirit reveals the nature of God to the elect – which is something words cannot even describe. Reliance on hard logic cannot fully describe God (as C.S. Lewis points out).

I do have a healthy fear of God, fear and trembling as it were. It would be an awful thing to be subjected to the wrath of our all mighty God. However, He always surprises us with His mercy, and this is what my hope is placed in. This is His love for us.

I think many men want a God of wrath rather than pure love. We view God through our own carnal eyes. Even the prophets petitioned God for the destruction of the wicked. We are told the wicked themselves are made for the day of evil (or destruction). Still I hold out hope for the reprobate – that they may know what you and I know. How God so loved us that He gave His only Son to suffer in our stead. Can there be a greater act of mercy and love?

 

[bobzills]

I would agree that those who openly reject our Lord and seek to put His name to shame will face God’s wrath, so it written as you note.

However, what of those who never hear the word?

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? (Romans 10:14).

Also:

This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time (1 Timothy 2:3-6, see also 1 Tim. 4:10).

Like I said you’re position is what Scripture overwhelmingly states, and one I generally accept. However, there seems to be these little hints peppered in Scripture that God will achieve everything He wants, which is to save all men.

Karl Barth held to this sort of hypothetical universalism. I generally disagree with how Barth framed the idea of predestination, but he is not alone in his theory of hypothetical universalism. Many Catholic theologians agree the destiny of the reprobate is an open question (even your catechism doesn’t absolutely deny this possibility). Luther didn’t make any absolute statements in this regard, also leaving it an open question.

God has always surprised us with His mercy. Adam and Eve deserved destruction, yet were not destroyed. The Jews deserved destruction yet were preserved. We all deserve destruction yet there is grace. God has longsuffering for the vessels made for destruction. They show us His power, yet there’s always this outstretched hand of mercy. I think this is a mystery. I also think the Spirit reveals the nature of God to the elect – which is something words cannot even describe. Reliance on hard logic cannot fully describe God (as C.S. Lewis points out).

I do have a healthy fear of God, fear and trembling as it were. It would be an awful thing to be subjected to the wrath of our all mighty God. However, He always surprises us with His mercy, and this is what my hope is placed in. This is His love for us.

I think many men want a God of wrath rather than pure love. We view God through our own carnal eyes. Even the prophets petitioned God for the destruction of the wicked. We are told the wicked themselves are made for the day of evil (or destruction). Still I hold out hope for the reprobate – that they may know what you and I know. How God so loved us that He gave His only Son to suffer in our stead. Can there be a greater act of mercy and love?

OK.
But we still have the words as recorded by Matthew.

 

[sola_scriptura]

OK.
But we still have the words as recorded by Matthew.

I know & agree. I think the good thing is that we are told not to judge others – but only to bring them to Christ if possible (if they are His sheep they will respond to His voice).

Frankly IMO, overall, I disagree with universalism. The preponderance of Scripture tells us it’s not true. However, like I said there’s these passages hanging out there. I believe pondering about the possibility of universalism is not to be done by preachers of the Gospel – it is the stuff of theologians. We should always preach Christ risen and the absolute necessity for faith, with no compromises.