Teased at Mass for not wanting to hold hands during Our Father

[Tantum_ergo]

Greeting people is courtesy in action, not an attempt to form a full blown relationship.
Go to any decent hotel and someone greets you and they may open the doors.

The obvious objection is “the Mass isn’t a hotel”. That’s true, but kindness can be practiced everywhere. When people come to our homes we open the door and greet them. The Church is the Body of Christ, I think it is good for people to greet one another. Our parish has greeters hold open the doors and simply say “good morning”. Before the start of Mass we are asked to greet one another. It’s simple and quick.

I’m sure there are plenty of people who welcome this. And–there are plenty who don’t.

Thing is, I’ve never known (this is my personal experience and that of my family’s, obviously others’ experiences can differ) anybody ‘follow up’ from this. You’ll get a quick ‘hello’ (no name) from the person next to you or in the pew in front or behind, while meanwhile around the church people are flashing ‘peace signs’, waving, giving hugs. . . So, what does that say? The people who know each other greet each other warmly, and those of (sadly usually MY) a certain generation will flash the peace sign (I guess I’m glad they’re not flicking their Bics) indiscriminately, and those who are less ‘extroverted’ feel like they’re once again the last ones being picked at the playground, or the wallflowers at a dance.

FORCED or COMPULSORY ‘fellowship’ doesn’t work. The fact that there may be a sizeable number or majority of people who are ALREADY IN FELLOWSHIP may make it SEEM that this kind of gesture is a roaring success at 'Being Church" (gag), because hey, everybody’s doing it, everybody’s having fun, and if you aren’t, you’re a fuddy duddy. Not THEIR fault that people don’t feel ‘welcome’. . .

IMO (and it’s just an opinion, please), this kind of gesture is a phony attempt to portray as parish as 'we are all one and we care about every individual" rather than actually having the priest go out and MEET people, or having the ‘social committee’ actually INVITE people to come and get involved, or just having somebody from the parish ASK if there’s something you really enjoy about the Faith and then going from there, gently let the person choose their involvement level and then ‘more’ or ‘less’ as circumstances dictate.

In the parishes I have been (and it’s mostly been in the tundra/least religious area), the ones where we had ‘meet and greet’ before Mass and the liturgy was all about ‘meal’ and ‘fellowship’ and 'where WE want to be in life" (the idea that Christ has any idea for us being totally unexplored), were the ones in which nobody–not the priest, not the greeters, not the people in the pews–ever went BEYOND a ‘hello’ IN THE CHURCH BEFORE MASS.

The ones where the liturgy was Father Z “Say the Black, Do the Red”, where we came in, prayed quietly, etc. . . THOSE were the parishes where, when you showed up for Mass, you had smiles directed at you, so you know people saw you, but you weren’t ‘pushed’. By the 3rd or 4th time you attended Mass, people would say, as you walked out to the parking lot, things like, “Nice day. . .hope we’ll see you again next week”. . .by the time you’d been going a couple of months, you’d be addressed by name and there would be at least 5 or 6 families whose names you knew as well. By the time you were there 6 months, you’d have meet these people and more not just at church, but in town. . .shopping, walking. . .and you’d have conversations. By the time you were there a year, YOU’D be one of the people noticing a ‘new’ person and greeting them with a "Nice day. . .hope we see you again next week.’

You had a real community because it wasn’t based on games. And yet, when the new priests (sadly, in this neck of the woods they are still usually in the 50 and over range), one of the first things that gets pushed onto the congregation is “MEET and GREET”, let’s tweak the liturgy, let’s change things for the sake of change because obviously if you’re still doing things the way that the previous priest did, you’re STAGNANT. Only change --the ‘new’ priest’s cool ideas etc–will help you 'be Church". . .and so the madness continues.

 

[Crown_of_Stars]

I’m all right with the handshake of peace, or waving or some sort of gesture of acknowledgement. As for the “Our Father,” I really do prefer to fold my hands and bow my head. I always start to do this, but if I see the person next to me has started to move their hand to take mine, I let them. After all, I’m in church, and I don’t want to feel rude. But the mind and heart is supposed to be on God and Christ for the entire Mass, the reason we’re there. Incidentally, my church is very warm and gentle, we have a very enlightening priest and a very nice deacon.

Crown of Stars/ Kathryn

 

[ProVobis]

We were told by our diocese, Cleveland, some time back that we were not supposed to hold hands but raise them as the priest does to be consistent with early Church practice. Not everyone knows that but enough do it, that the hand holders tend not to be too agressive.

The IGMR/GRIM gives explicit instructions for the priest to extend and raise his hands before the prayer. The congregation is simply asked to recite the prayer. Or sing it if the priest does. In some places it’s too crowded to everyone to extend and raise hands. This shouldn’t be a requirement but the bishop is the bishop.

 

[pianistclare]

Some threads here on CA lead one to believe that orans-pray is ix-nay for the plebs?!

Only in as much as some posture are for presiders, not people in the pews.

 

[Poussin]

The IGMR/GRIM gives explicit instructions for the priest to extend and raise his hands before the prayer. The congregation is simply asked to recite the prayer. Or sing it if the priest does. In some places it’s too crowded to everyone to extend and raise hands. This shouldn’t be a requirement but the bishop is the bishop.

It did definitely come from the Bishop via and communicated via the Diocesan newspaper. I can’t remember if it was versed in the way of a ‘requirement’ but it definitely was more than a mere suggestion as it did cite early Christian practice as the basis. At the same time, the Diocese was discouraging hand holding. It definitely took, as I rarely see anyone but outsiders holding hands any more. Hand holding was prevalent prior to the Diocesan ‘edict’.

 

[pianistclare]

I’m sure there are plenty of people who welcome this. And–there are plenty who don’t.

Thing is, I’ve never known (this is my personal experience and that of my family’s, obviously others’ experiences can differ) anybody ‘follow up’ from this. You’ll get a quick ‘hello’ (no name) from the person next to you or in the pew in front or behind, while meanwhile around the church people are flashing ‘peace signs’, waving, giving hugs. . . So, what does that say? The people who know each other greet each other warmly, and those of (sadly usually MY) a certain generation will flash the peace sign (I guess I’m glad they’re not flicking their Bics) indiscriminately, and those who are less ‘extroverted’ feel like they’re once again the last ones being picked at the playground, or the wallflowers at a dance.

FORCED or COMPULSORY ‘fellowship’ doesn’t work. The fact that there may be a sizeable number or majority of people who are ALREADY IN FELLOWSHIP may make it SEEM that this kind of gesture is a roaring success at 'Being Church" (gag), because hey, everybody’s doing it, everybody’s having fun, and if you aren’t, you’re a fuddy duddy. Not THEIR fault that people don’t feel ‘welcome’. . .

IMO (and it’s just an opinion, please), this kind of gesture is a phony attempt to portray as parish as 'we are all one and we care about every individual" rather than actually having the priest go out and MEET people, or having the ‘social committee’ actually INVITE people to come and get involved, or just having somebody from the parish ASK if there’s something you really enjoy about the Faith and then going from there, gently let the person choose their involvement level and then ‘more’ or ‘less’ as circumstances dictate.

In the parishes I have been (and it’s mostly been in the tundra/least religious area), the ones where we had ‘meet and greet’ before Mass and the liturgy was all about ‘meal’ and ‘fellowship’ and 'where WE want to be in life" (the idea that Christ has any idea for us being totally unexplored), were the ones in which nobody–not the priest, not the greeters, not the people in the pews–ever went BEYOND a ‘hello’ IN THE CHURCH BEFORE MASS.

The ones where the liturgy was Father Z “Say the Black, Do the Red”, where we came in, prayed quietly, etc. . . THOSE were the parishes where, when you showed up for Mass, you had smiles directed at you, so you know people saw you, but you weren’t ‘pushed’. By the 3rd or 4th time you attended Mass, people would say, as you walked out to the parking lot, things like, “Nice day. . .hope we’ll see you again next week”. . .by the time you’d been going a couple of months, you’d be addressed by name and there would be at least 5 or 6 families whose names you knew as well. By the time you were there 6 months, you’d have meet these people and more not just at church, but in town. . .shopping, walking. . .and you’d have conversations. By the time you were there a year, YOU’D be one of the people noticing a ‘new’ person and greeting them with a "Nice day. . .hope we see you again next week.’

You had a real community because it wasn’t based on games. And yet, when the new priests (sadly, in this neck of the woods they are still usually in the 50 and over range), one of the first things that gets pushed onto the congregation is “MEET and GREET”, let’s tweak the liturgy, let’s change things for the sake of change because obviously if you’re still doing things the way that the previous priest did, you’re STAGNANT. Only change --the ‘new’ priest’s cool ideas etc–will help you 'be Church". . .and so the madness continues.

well stated. I will add one thing to this:
Often the “new” priests tend to not want to change some of these things for fear of the congregation getting all upset. We had one such pastor…he got such a backlash for his trying to standardize things that he eventually suffered a breakdown.
When he left, NOBODY wanted to be assigned to us. What an embarrassment. I still feel awful about it.
People take too much “ownership” in their parish policies. We should go back to the priest running things, ( of course with advisors in some areas) not committees of people who went to a workshop somewhere on the parish’s dime.
Most of these “innovations” spring from liturgy workshops.

 

[Sunbreak]

I don’t like holding hands during the Our Father and so I go to a parish which doesn’t do that. At other parishes I try to attend a Mass that isn’t crowded and sit someplace that doesn’t have people in the immediate vicinity so I don’t have to encounter the hand holding stuff. I have encountered the bad mannered hand holding types - once some older gentleman actually quite loudly and in a grouchy tone told me “we’re supposed to hold hands” right there in Mass. I won’t repeat what I wanted to tell him in reply.

 

[oldgraymare2]

is this some kind of regional thing? I have attended three different parishes in two states and have only ever seen a handful of people doing the hand holding thing. most people just bow their heads here and a few raise up their hands in a similar way to what the priest does. does everybody in the whole gongregation really hold hands? I have not really witnessed such a thing

Hi rasbat,

Perhaps it is regional? I had never seen it done at any of the parishes that I was going to in my state, until I went to Mass with my Dad where he lived.

I was , as that was the first time that I had ever seen it done during Mass where the parishioners held hands with each other during the “Our Father.”

 

[estesbob]

i’ve been in parishes where they ask people to introduce themselves to the persons next to them, before mass starts. i suppose they are trying to encourage some sense of family, but i don’t think it works very well. we need the Holy Spirit to bring people together, not forced attempts at building relationships. don’t even get me started on the official ‘greeter’, it’s not walmart.

I think they should move the sign of peace to the very beginning of mass. Kill two birds with one stone so to speak.

 

[JakeWI]

Our Parish has about half who hold hands, half that don’t. My wife and I don’t do the hand holding thing… and really have never encountered any issues with people in regards to choosing to not do that. Actually, it seemed this past weekend less held hands that normally. I did have one person in front of me choose not shake my hand during the sign of peace, but she did a friendly wave/nod, and I responded the same. I have no problem with anyone who prefers a certain way or another, honestly. I respect other’s right to space if they prefer it.

Overall, I get the exact beautiful, reverent Mass that I prefer to attend in a church that is of a traditional style… so this is honestly such a small thing that I don’t get bothered by others doing it.

 

[SuperLuigi]

I bow my my head and fold my hands. Works every time

I think that’s what you are supposed to do.

 

[Bonnie]

I have encountered the bad mannered hand holding types - once some older gentleman actually quite loudly and in a grouchy tone told me “we’re supposed to hold hands” right there in Mass. I won’t repeat what I wanted to tell him in reply.

At a funeral some years back I was gripping the pew in front for balance. The woman beside me pried my hand off the pew and held it rather tightly. After the Our Father she gave me a sweet smile. I’m sure she thought she was doing me a favor.

 

[Kelfa28]

In the parishes I have been (and it’s mostly been in the tundra/least religious area), the ones where we had ‘meet and greet’ before Mass and the liturgy was all about ‘meal’ and ‘fellowship’ and 'where WE want to be in life" (the idea that Christ has any idea for us being totally unexplored), were the ones in which nobody–not the priest, not the greeters, not the people in the pews–ever went BEYOND a ‘hello’ IN THE CHURCH BEFORE MASS.

The ones where the liturgy was Father Z “Say the Black, Do the Red”, where we came in, prayed quietly, etc. . . THOSE were the parishes where, when you showed up for Mass, you had smiles directed at you, so you know people saw you, but you weren’t ‘pushed’. By the 3rd or 4th time you attended Mass, people would say, as you walked out to the parking lot, things like, “Nice day. . .hope we’ll see you again next week”. . .by the time you’d been going a couple of months, you’d be addressed by name and there would be at least 5 or 6 families whose names you knew as well. By the time you were there 6 months, you’d have meet these people and more not just at church, but in town. . .shopping, walking. . .and you’d have conversations. By the time you were there a year, YOU’D be one of the people noticing a ‘new’ person and greeting them with a "Nice day. . .hope we see you again next week.’

You had a real community because it wasn’t based on games. And yet, when the new priests (sadly, in this neck of the woods they are still usually in the 50 and over range), one of the first things that gets pushed onto the congregation is “MEET and GREET”, let’s tweak the liturgy, let’s change things for the sake of change because obviously if you’re still doing things the way that the previous priest did, you’re STAGNANT. Only change --the ‘new’ priest’s cool ideas etc–will help you 'be Church". . .and so the madness continues.

THIS! Seriously THIS X1000.

Our parish is exactly like this and I would never dream of going anywhere else. Hubby and I started going to our Parish about 3 years ago. We are both introverted and sort of just blended ourselves into the pews. But our Parish has a lot to offer throughout the liturgical year.
Besides daily Mass, our parish does Latin Mass, benediction, 24 hour adoration as well as different things during the Liturgical year like a very popular stations of the cross during Lent, lots of activities at the parish during advent, first Fridays, Saturday rosaries, speakers, chaplets and a whole host of other things where you just pick what you’d like and show up. This doesn’t include the groups we have for WOGs and the men of St Joseph meetings.
Doing this meant you automatically got to know all of the regulars at our Parish without being pushed into any kind of forced fellowship.

Now, going to Church is one of the most comfortable places to be. Most of our closest friends are at our Parish. We go to dinners at their houses, watch their kids and do play dates.
None of this had anything to do with forced fellowship and awkwardness. It had everything to do with a fantastic Parish that knows how to feed it’s flock…not just weekly but every single day.

I wish all parishes were like this. You go there knowing you have something in common with the rest of the parish and the coffee and donuts just happen naturally. You go there so often…that you get to know everyone else and everyone else gets to know you…by default.

BTW…can’t stand the hand holding for the Our Father…hubby and I are seriously introverted people and I’d have a meltdown if a stranger tried to snag my hand for it.

 

[otjm]

i have a low immunity disease, so i prefer not to shake hands. we don’t seem to have the hand holding custom in this area, but i did notice it in vermont. perhaps it is regional?

I have seen it in parishes in North Dakota, Washington (several), Utah (several), California (several), Nevada, and Oregon (every one I have attended). So in each state, in every parish I have gone to Mass in, people hold hands during the Our Father.

I also happen to have a picture taken somewhere between early 1961 and early 1962 with people at Mass holding hands, so it has been around for a while.

 

[otjm]

I think that’s what you are supposed to do.

There are no official rules as to posture during the Our Father. The matter has been known in Rome for decades and for those same decades, the silence from Rome concerning the proper posture, or the do’s and don’ts has been loudly silent. One might almost say extremely silent, and there have been revisions to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM), as well as documents correcting specific liturgical actions. None of them have addressed the matter.

 

[tawny]

I always fold my hands in prayer.

 

[otjm]

Hand-holding in at mass is a ridiculous leftover from the 1960’s and '70s and pretty much a completely phony expression of community - I have.never seen ANY strangers go from the enforced hand-holding to any sort of further introduction. Having committed this action, which is nowhere prescribed, the people rush away only too happy to nit further the embarrassment of further pretense. Alas the same is mainly true of the gesture of peace, described by Pope Emeritus Benedict as a liturgically meaningless gesture.

We3ll, that is an emotional response to something you don’[t like.

To say it is phony is to say the person(s) holding hands is/are phonies. That is a personal judgment based on no facts, no question of them directly; just an emotional lashing out at others.

I have held hands with three people as they were dying. I have held hands with people saying the Our Father in 5 different states and more parishes than I can remember. To do something out of charity - and then you call it phony?

I don’t have a dog in the fight; I franly don’t care one way of the other. If the person next to me does not want to hold hands, I don’t initiate. If they do, in charity I will always hold hands.

Chaput, when he was Archbishop in Colorado, finally had enough of the issue and he wrote a public piece on the matter. I am inclined to the Archbishop perhaps knew more about rubrics, the GIRM, liturgical law, and how the Church works than most people do, and he is not one I would call a liberal.

The short of his rather long dissertation was that there is no rule as to the posture of the people, other than standing. Holding hands is **not forbidden, nor is it required. What is called for is charity - and according to him, both sides owe charity. Those who do not want to hold hands have no business or right to criticize those who do. And those who do hold hands have no right to force others to do so.

Touch can be so important. In our desire to not touch someone else, we too often may overlook how important that may be to them. At Mass, we may be the only personal, human contact they have that week (consider the elderly, and how isolated they often are); or it may be someone who is struggling with who knows what serious matter. Something as simple as holding their hand may have far more impact than we realize.

14 years ago I had a serious surgery. And what I remember most was a friend, who was and is an evangelical pastor, came up, sat along side the bed and put his hand on mine and spent about 10 minutes quietly praying. That meant far more to me in the 5 days I was there than all the others combined who stopped by to talk - including my family.

Phony?

No. I really don’t think so.

Rome doesn’t care - their silence is deafening. There is no rule as to what to do with one’s hands. It has been going on for at least 53 years. There is one answer we should give on the matter, if we really say we are trying to follow Christ: what is the most charitable thing I can do for the person standing next to me? Not “what is the most charitable thing I can do to them to fulfill my wants/needs/personal opinions?”.

 

[bisco]

i’m always amazed at how emotional simple threads can become.

 

[estesbob]

i’m always amazed at how emotional simple threads can become.

Me too. My dream thread is "is it a sin to hold hands at the Our Father while reading a Harry Potter book ?

 

[bisco]

ya, that wouldn’t get much in the way of emotional responses.