J
Jegudiel
Guest
Poppycock. As I said, pre-recorded music before and after Mass. I made no mention of using pre-recorded music during the Mass.
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J
Jegudiel
Guest
I would love to be able to go to church and one day see the parish’s original artwork stations. Maybe the following week I could see high resolution images of the famous stations from St. Pat’s in NYC, etc. etc. That would be beautiful.
S
Steady_Eddy
Guest
Hello there,
Give me a nice quiet Church/Mass any day of the week.
2 Cor 13:13
Eddy Barry
Give me a nice quiet Church/Mass any day of the week.
2 Cor 13:13
Eddy Barry
M
MissRose73
Guest
I do not mind some technology used during Mass to do things like project the responses and hymn lyrics. I would rather have real bells rang during the Consecration and other parts by a server. I do not mind the wireless mics the priest uses to project his voice. Music should played using an instrument by a person (piano or organ preferred) being led by a cantor. I know I have grown up with computers but at the same time, Mass should not all about the technology to bring it to life.
J
JRKH
Guest
I think that I agree with you here - the question is though…What constitutes “executed correctly” and what would be the result of NOT executing correctly???
The Mass, as written, is beautiful just by itself. When “executed correctly” it really needs no embellishment at all - and yet - there are priests and liturgical committees who insist on trying to improve the “experience” by departing from that which is written in the missal and the rubrics. I’m sure that these people too feel that this makes the mass “absolutely gorgeous if executed correctly”.
I know that you are not suggesting an abuse of the mass and I appreciate that.
What I am suggesting is that - what constitutes “executed correctly” in so far as equipment - effects - timing - even colors of lights - type/style/volume of music - and the many other aspects of this idea will vary from person to person even within a parish.
You have already seen from the posts here that idea vary on what is appropriate and the same would apply to what constitutes “executed correctly”. The person in pew 5 is loving it, while the person in pew 6 is hating it and the person in pew 9 is thinking about what they like or don’t like or would do differently, while the person in pew 12 wishes that whoever is fooling with the lights would just stop…
And of course none of this speaks to the increased cost to the parish community of installation and maintenance. Monies that can be used elsewhere like the parish school, or various charitable works.
Like I say - I agree that your vision could indeed be beautiful if executed correctly - I wonder though if what you see and what I see as executed correctly are the same thing …Ultimately I think I like the mass as simple, and as traditional, as I can find it.
Peace
James
C
CaptCrunch73
Guest
I’m with Steady Eddy. Fulton Sheen wrote
“They might have done two things with His death which would have fallen so short of the Way of Divinity. They might have regarded His redemptive death as a drama presented once in history like the assassination of Lincoln. In that case, it would have been only an incident, not a Redemption—the tragic end of a man, not the Salvation of humanity. Regrettably, this is the way so many look upon the Cross of Christ, forgetting His Resurrection and the pouring out of the merits of His Cross in the Memorial Action He ordered and commanded. In such a case, His death would be only like a national Memorial Day and nothing more. Or they might have regarded it as a drama which was played only once, but one which ought often to be recalled only through meditation on its details. In this case, they would go back and read the accounts of the drama critics who lived at the time, namely, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This would be only a literary recall of His death, as Plato records the death of Socrates, and would have made the death of Our Lord no different from the death of any man. Our Lord never told anyone to write about His Redemption, but He did tell His Apostles to renew it, apply it, commemorate it, prolong it by obeying His orders given at the Last Supper. He wanted the great drama of Calvary to be played not once, but for every age of His own choosing. He wanted men not to be readers about His Redemption, but actors in it, offering up their body and blood with His in the re-enactment of Calvary, saying with Him, “This is my body and this is my blood”; dying to their lower natures to live by grace…that they would be changed into Christ.” [11]
Since this is a subjective thread…
The OP presented a model for worship, I agree that the proposal would be a great idea for worship. However I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding on exactly what the Catholic Mass is.
:twocents:
“They might have done two things with His death which would have fallen so short of the Way of Divinity. They might have regarded His redemptive death as a drama presented once in history like the assassination of Lincoln. In that case, it would have been only an incident, not a Redemption—the tragic end of a man, not the Salvation of humanity. Regrettably, this is the way so many look upon the Cross of Christ, forgetting His Resurrection and the pouring out of the merits of His Cross in the Memorial Action He ordered and commanded. In such a case, His death would be only like a national Memorial Day and nothing more. Or they might have regarded it as a drama which was played only once, but one which ought often to be recalled only through meditation on its details. In this case, they would go back and read the accounts of the drama critics who lived at the time, namely, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This would be only a literary recall of His death, as Plato records the death of Socrates, and would have made the death of Our Lord no different from the death of any man. Our Lord never told anyone to write about His Redemption, but He did tell His Apostles to renew it, apply it, commemorate it, prolong it by obeying His orders given at the Last Supper. He wanted the great drama of Calvary to be played not once, but for every age of His own choosing. He wanted men not to be readers about His Redemption, but actors in it, offering up their body and blood with His in the re-enactment of Calvary, saying with Him, “This is my body and this is my blood”; dying to their lower natures to live by grace…that they would be changed into Christ.” [11]
Since this is a subjective thread…
The OP presented a model for worship, I agree that the proposal would be a great idea for worship. However I think the OP has a fundamental misunderstanding on exactly what the Catholic Mass is.
:twocents:
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Phemie
Guest
No, I’ve been involved in theatre and I know what you’re talking about and can certainly appreciate how technology can make or break a play.
But Mass is not theatre. It needs no enhancements beyond that which is envisioned in the rubrics.
U
Usige
Guest
I would have to agree. I did lighting and staging in my youth and the success of a performance can be enhanced or destroyed if these are poorly executed. That being said the Mass is not a performance for entertainment.
I don’t object to the use of technology to make things more useful (i.e. microphones so the celebrant can be heard) or artwork and music to enhance beauty. My objection is when the technology becomes the focal point rather than an enhancement. For instance I once attended a parish that used high def projectors and would post inspirational messages and quotes from the gospel reading. To make it more beautiful and serene they started putting animated back grounds of clouds, streams, etc. behind the quotes. In the effort to make the mass “come alive” they distracted from the mass. Everything became about enhancing the experience rather than focusing on the enhancing the message.
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Gena
Guest
I can see that you have given this topic a lot of thought and that you feel quite passionate about it. And I can tell that your heart is in a good place in wanting to use technology to give greater glory to God.
I am saddened that you seem to dismiss the concerns and objections of those who disagree with you by implying that they cannot imagine the beauty of it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You love bells and want to incorporate them in several places. Other people may not love bells.
A Mass like what you describe would be a nightmare for my family. My son (age 8) has several disabilities, including autism and visual impairments. As part of his autism, he has sensory sensitivities, language processing disorders, and social-emotional impairments. My son LOVES going to Mass. He loves the quiet, peaceful setting. He loves staring at the stained glass windows. He loves following along in the missal and hymnal (often with a magnifier). A Mass like you are imaging would take all that away from him.
My son would not be able to tolerate lighting changes several times during Mass or the frequent use of bells. He probably would not be able to read the large screens with the hymns and readings. Additionally, holding the missal/hymnal helps keep him focused on what is happening. If he could read it, he would experience much eyestrain and fatigue. Having a display rotate through various stations and other images would keep him from contemplating his favorite one while waiting for Mass to start.
I don’t take my son to the theatre or the movies or Easter Vigil because he cannot tolerate the sensory (name removed by moderator)uts of those places. I would hate to not be able to take him to a regular Sunday Mass for the same reason.
I do think technology can have a place in Mass. But I think that technology, when used, should serve the purpose of making Mass more accessible for the disabled. I believe that many of the things you wish to include would make Mass less accessible for some disabled people, like my son.
I am saddened that you seem to dismiss the concerns and objections of those who disagree with you by implying that they cannot imagine the beauty of it. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. You love bells and want to incorporate them in several places. Other people may not love bells.
A Mass like what you describe would be a nightmare for my family. My son (age 8) has several disabilities, including autism and visual impairments. As part of his autism, he has sensory sensitivities, language processing disorders, and social-emotional impairments. My son LOVES going to Mass. He loves the quiet, peaceful setting. He loves staring at the stained glass windows. He loves following along in the missal and hymnal (often with a magnifier). A Mass like you are imaging would take all that away from him.
My son would not be able to tolerate lighting changes several times during Mass or the frequent use of bells. He probably would not be able to read the large screens with the hymns and readings. Additionally, holding the missal/hymnal helps keep him focused on what is happening. If he could read it, he would experience much eyestrain and fatigue. Having a display rotate through various stations and other images would keep him from contemplating his favorite one while waiting for Mass to start.
I don’t take my son to the theatre or the movies or Easter Vigil because he cannot tolerate the sensory (name removed by moderator)uts of those places. I would hate to not be able to take him to a regular Sunday Mass for the same reason.
I do think technology can have a place in Mass. But I think that technology, when used, should serve the purpose of making Mass more accessible for the disabled. I believe that many of the things you wish to include would make Mass less accessible for some disabled people, like my son.
D
Deo_Gratias42
Guest
The Mass and church isn’t a performing arts centre. I have been to such venues, and while it’s appropriate and nice for the performing arts, it’s not proper to the Mass. The Mass is not a performance.
BTW: I go to Mass and to church to escape from all the technological non-sense that’s going on these days Sometimes the greatest break I get in the day is when I can get to a quiet low Mass at my parish. No phones, no computers, very little noise, nothing flashy, just peace and quiet. All of my senses get used even at a low Mass. My priest uses so much incense during high Masses and Benediction that it’s permanently ingrained into the church. The first thing I get when I walk into the church is a strong whiff of incense. My sense of touch get used as I hold my rosary and pray it, or while I hold and feel the pages of my Missal. My sense of hearing is used with the appropriate bells used by the altar boy during the actual Mass. My sense of sight is used by watching my priest reverently and humbly offer the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, and by the beautiful vestments and sacred vessels. Finally, my sense of taste is satisfied during communion when I get to receive our Lord on my tongue whilst kneeling.
And that’s just a low Mass. A high Mass is a full-out use of my senses.
R
Rainaldo
Guest
Would you include Hawaiian fire-jugglers in the procession?
T
The_Curt_Jester
Guest
If I want to see all that, I’ll just go to the performing arts center. Perhaps the intentions are right in wanting to use all this technology, but most of the suggestions would just reduce the Mass to a theatre production.
M
mariyka
Guest
Note: I’m Eastern Catholic. We don’t do instruments, pews, or statues, and barely use electricity in church. So, 1055 is more the banner year for us!
(But I can understand where you’re coming from, having been to many such presentations. It’s just not part of my religious upbringing.)
J
Jegudiel
Guest
Nobody said anything about fake bells. I would choose to have the large bell in the belfry tolled over a server ringing a handbell anytime. Not only is it far more historic, it’s also much more beautiful.
Nothing at all wrong with pre-recorded music before and after Mass. My church does it sometimes. “The Priests” sound extra special inside of church.
J
Jegudiel
Guest
I attend a Byzantine Catholic Church on a regular basis. The lack of instruments can be nice but it’s not match for a pipe organ.Note: I’m Eastern Catholic. We don’t do instruments, pews, or statues, and barely use electricity in church. So, 1055 is more the banner year for us!
(But I can understand where you’re coming from, having been to many such presentations. It’s just not part of my religious upbringing.)
We also have pews, thanks be to God.
J
Jegudiel
Guest
Nonsense. You’re simply reacting to what you don’t understand. The fact some churches already do some of the things I mentioned with great success.
J
Jegudiel
Guest
You bring up a critical point. What I described would have to be executed correctly which would be impossible to describe here sort of writing an actual plan of specifications. That’s why so many are reacting the way they are though – they really cannot conceptualize how beautiful it would be.
Nonsense. A Papal Mass on TV is HIGHLY “embellished” compared to a typical Sunday or weekday Mass. There are reasons for doing that.
Not really. In any event the allowable variation is already present in the Mass.
Again, not really. Those that post here might not like the ideas (I figured they wouldn’t) but this is hardly a representative sample of all Catholics in the USA. The other thing you’re not grasping is that there would be nothing to “hate.”
Please…
My goodness. I can’t believe you would try that old standby. That’s true of any church “embellishment.” Heck, why don’t we just sell the church, meet at the local Vet’s Hall and use the proceeds for “the parish school, or various charitable works”?I suspect it would depend on what you have experienced in your life and what your standards are. Mine are quite high. I don’t like “simple” Masses. I prefer great solemness.
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Jegudiel
Guest
The Mass is often enriched by its surroundings, by it’s furnishings, etc. It may not “need” it but I for one would prefer attending a Mass at St. Peter’s versus a Mass at my local parish.
There is not one thing I mentioned that would detract from the Mass. Not one.
J
Jegudiel
Guest
Who is suggesting it would?
You’ve giving examples of things that were poorly planned and executed. Nothing I mentioned is.
J
Jegudiel
Guest
Rather than electronically veil the stations when the Mass began, I would instead project images of great saints who along with us have their focus on the altar. That would be most appropriate.
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