Teenagers and Church Music

[VociMike]

I see we have some new posters, so I thought I’d pass along a brief summary of what the Church teaches regarding sacred music.

1. It must be holy. That is, set apart for God and for sacred purposes.
2. It must be true art.
3. The ideal is to sing the actual texts of the Mass, not sing other texts during the Mass. This immediately makes all hymns less than the ideal.
4. In the Roman Rite, Gregorian chant is the supreme model and permanent standard against which all other styles and compositions are to be judged. This is mostly because Gregorian chant meets, almost to perfection, the three ideals listed above.

So whether one likes style A, B, C or D, seek out music that meets the ideals set out by the Church.

 

[snhs]

Exactly. I couldn’t have said it better. And yes, I want to give God the best. When I die and hopefully make it to heaven, I’ll ask Jesus what his favorite song was. If he says Gregorian Chant, I’ll humbly agree that you are indeed right. Until that day comes, I’m inclined to believe that God wants us to sing to him the best way we know how.

I’m not suggesting people come to church and listen to the music to alleviate boredom. There’s people, generally teenager (I myself being one of them) who are dragged to church every Sunday. For the most part I want to go, but there are some days when I really just don’t want to be there. For all those people out there, at least give them some good music that can help them focus in and at least almost allow the Mass to speak to them.

So you’re basically saying that contemporary music is a distraction from whats really going on on the Altar? I don’t think so. Whenever you have young people involved they’re going to get a bit distracted. We’re all a little ADD.

Ok so maybe I did discredit the congregation’s musical ear. I’ll give you that, but there’s no way in Heaven or hell that you’re going to get a bunch of 15 year olds up on the Altar to do Georgian Chant. You can’t have the youth involved and get every traditional facet you want. We (the Youth) are the future and the future is now. The church is supposed to be built on a solid rock, which it has been. But to say we can’t redecorate once in a while is absolutely absurd.

Yes, yes, you are right. Not everyone can be great. But like wjj2001 said, we need some diversity more than once in a while. It’s good for us. It lets us grow. That actually brings up another point. When the Apostle’s first started celebrating Mass, I believe it’s pretty much agreed upon that they sang AND danced. Now where’d those songs come from? We’ll I’m pretty sure they had to make them up and that they were pretty upbeat because dancing to Gregorian chant would be very difficult.

Jesus didn’t send anyone away, so I’m pretty sure that, in the right context, God would want you to use your talent at guitar or harmonica during the greatest prayer, the Mass.

So they are to come to Church for the music? Or are they just going to allow themselves to be dragged along more willing?

What I’m getting at is what is the motivation for using such music in a Mass. VociMike has pointed out that the Church favours Gregorian Chant as the standard, so what is it in contemporary music which outweighs these other factors?

In the grand scheme of things its very easy to change the music used at Mass so that it mirrors whatever genre(s) are in the charts in a given month. But I don’t think we’re doing anyone any favours by doing so. If we give the impression that the Church will change to suit our preference, or for the convenience of this or that group what happens when we come to a point where they want something changed which we just can’t do? They end up leaving because the ‘convenience’ they’ve been conditioned to expect, which once kept them in the pews with their friends or family is gone.

It is true that music, gestures, just about anything can speak to people. But how can it speak to people when they speak in another language or lack the sense required to detect it? How can a photo say anything to a blind man? Or a song to someone who has been completely deaf their whole life? How can the Mass itself speak to people who have no concept of what is happening, or why it is happening, to who the whole idea of what we celebrate in the Mass is completely alien to their ‘culture’?

What I’m saying is that people who come to Church to listen to their friends play music are going to do just that. A man standing behind an Altar, moving his arms around isn’t likely to change that. When people make the kind of statement your youth minister made they do a grave disservice to the Church and the children they teach because instead of taking the time to explain what is important about the Mass and why they just add an extra distraction or two to keep people quiet. At its basic level its no different to giving a baby a dummy or telling a child to look at the scenery when they keep asking if they’re there yet.

I think we’d normally have singers off to the side of the Altar somewhere rather than on top of it.

So why is that? Peer pressure, you might get away with going to Church if you’ve got a guitar in one hand and a drum kit waiting, is that it? How many young people know enough about ‘classical’ music to make an informed choice, how many of them have heard pieces of Gregorian Chant and what fraction of a fraction of a percentile of that group have been at a Mass where they heard Gregorian Chant where it is meant to be? People normally advocate resisting peer pressure, so is it okay to allow it to influence the Mass? Could you defend the view of the Church on Gregorian Chant being the ‘supreme model and permanent standard’ for music in the Mass, would you even try?

At what point does the line between redecoration and redevelopment kick in? How much of the rock must we chip away to fit in the Hot Tub and Sauna? Do we just move out the old nets while old Auntie Mavis is asleep so that she awakens and sees nothing of what was there when she went to bed?

I’m not aware of anything which suggests that. It is also worth remembering that the circumstances and liturgies of what was a very fluid Communion were radically different in many respects to what we have today.
**
In the right context**. People have many talents that does not always make it suitable to use them in the Mass

 

[dconklin]

We need only traditional music at Mass. Preferably sung in Aramaic. And accompanied only by lutes, lyres, and clashing cymbals.

Yeah! This would be what Jesus did. Oh, but the the church has not said it is fitting. My guess is if Jesus was here today, he would be the lead singer of a Christian Rock band and have tattoos. He would be bringing IT to the people.

 

[jjschlueter23]

Just because the Church favors something doesn’t make it right. The Church has been wrong plenty of times (Galileo… ect.). If I’m not mistaken (and I very well could be), it actually took the Church 'til 1992 to officially revamp their statement on the Earth being the center of the universe. We’re pretty slow to change, and most people don’t wait around for that change to happen. If we just waited for the Church to change it never would. We’ve got to be the ones to step up and say “I’m being the change I wish to see” like Gandhi said.

Yes you are right that people who come to church just to listen to their friends play guitar aren’t going to get out of it. The same can be true for people who come to watch Gregorian chant, although I’m not aware of anyone that would actually want to come to watch that. But if these people play on a regular basis and people come to watch on a regular basis, there will be people that start paying attention to other parts of the Mass I can assure you of that. It’s similar to the new people who walk in off the streets and sit down in the back. They’ve got no clue what’s going on either. They’re probably going listen to the music because they can understand that and that can help them build their understanding of the rest of Mass. Singing in Latin, and actually saying the Mass in Latin, to me, sound like exclusive gestures. We’re sending the message that if you don’t know our fancy language, you’ll have no idea what’s going on or what to do. That is not the way I pictured Christ reaching out to the beggars of the streets.

Contemporary music is not chipping away at the rock to put in a hot tub. It’s building an above ground pool. You’re taking the music we’ve already got and building on it. Keep in mind this is centuries of building, but still building.

It’s also worth remembering that Jesus was a total radical. He didn’t get caught up in the grandeur of the religious zealots. He was practical and to the point. I think the church is losing some of that with all the majestic ceremonies we have. Don’t get me wrong, God is 100% worth that, but whenever I sit through some extravagant Mass or service I’m always thinking how we could spend our time actually helping the poorest of the poor and reaching out to the least of the world instead of just praying for them. I believe that music can lighten the soul and should be used to reach to those people inside and outside of Mass. That is something Gregorian chant can’t do.

 

[VociMike]

Just because the Church favors something doesn’t make it right.

I see. And yet you’re Catholic because…?

Sounds like you’ve decided you know more about liturgy and the place of music in liturgy than the Church - founded by Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit - which has been doing it for 2000 years. I’m impressed.

 

[aloysiusg]

Let’s everybody cool down. We’re all here to praise the Lord in the best way we can - let’s all keep that in mind.

 

[japhy]

Just because the Church favors something doesn’t make it right. The Church has been wrong plenty of times (Galileo… ect.). If I’m not mistaken (and I very well could be), it actually took the Church 'til 1992 to officially revamp their statement on the Earth being the center of the universe.

Any citations for that? Galileo was wrong in his specifics: the sun is not the center of the universe. (More details here.)

The same can be true for people who come to watch Gregorian chant, although I’m not aware of anyone that would actually want to come to watch that.

I would go to a Mass with Gregorian chant over a Mass without it, because the Mass with Gregorian chant would a) be in greater continuity with the Roman liturgical tradition (including the reformed rite of the Mass), and b) allow me to have fuller participation.

Singing in Latin, and actually saying the Mass in Latin, to me, sound like exclusive gestures. We’re sending the message that if you don’t know our fancy language, you’ll have no idea what’s going on or what to do.

It’s not exclusive; Latin is meant to be inclusive, because as Catholics of the Latin Rite, it’s the language proper to our liturgy, and we should all be comfortable chanting or speaking the responses in Latin. (That’s what the Church says, at least…) What’s exclusive is having an English Mass, a Spanish Mass, a Korean Mass, and a Portuguese Mass in the same parish. Save your nationalism and your differences for personal or group piety: let the Mass truly present the universality and the union of the Catholic Church.

And as for having “no idea what’s going on or what we do”, perhaps this is a deficiency of the modern form of the Roman Rite, that actions have been reduced and words have been increased (in an attempt to explain the actions – both removed and retained). And along with this comes the incorrect notion that we should understand everything at Mass, and that there is no longer a mystery… or that if there is still a mystery, our language needs to be simplified more.

Contemporary music is not chipping away at the rock to put in a hot tub. It’s building an above ground pool. You’re taking the music we’ve already got and building on it. Keep in mind this is centuries of building, but still building.

I might be wrong here, but I don’t see how much of our contemporary music is “built on” Gregorian chant or polyphony.

It’s also worth remembering that Jesus was a total radical.

No, he wasn’t.

He didn’t get caught up in the grandeur of the religious zealots. He was practical and to the point.

He taught in parables. He drew in the sand. He spoke enigmatically. He answered questions with questions. He prophesied his glorious resurrection and ascension into heaven.

I think the church is losing some of that with all the majestic ceremonies we have.

Our liturgy is meant to reflect heavenly realities, where there is definitely majesty, and glory, and “ceremonial”, and grandeur.

There are some people who claim the Catholic Church has “protestantized” its liturgy by simplifying it and dumbing it down and losing much of its sense of mystery; your statement here is an affirmation of their fears. The

Don’t get me wrong, God is 100% worth that, but whenever I sit through some extravagant Mass or service I’m always thinking how we could spend our time actually helping the poorest of the poor and reaching out to the least of the world instead of just praying for them.

It’s not an either/or. It’s not “just praying for them”, it’s praying for them and acting upon our intentions. It is our worship of God that drives our charity: without it, Christians acts are merely humanitarian acts.

I believe that music can lighten the soul and should be used to reach to those people inside and outside of Mass. That is something Gregorian chant can’t do.

I disagree that Gregorian chant can’t do that.

 

[jjschlueter23]

I’m Catholic because I believe in most of what the Catholic church says. There’s minor stuff, like this, that we have our disagreements on.

I’m impressed too that you noticed. I’m glad you think so highly of me. We’re guided by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit’s walking next to us. Not grabbing our hand and yanking us along. That would be a violation of free will.

And its not like I’m claiming to know everything. I’m just stating my opinion and the reasons for it. It’s not heresy to say you think the Church is wrong on something. Nailing it to the door of the Vatican…that’s a different story

 

[jjschlueter23]

Sorry japhy. I didn’t see your reply there.

Jesus was too a radical. Eat My Body, Drink My Blood. He hung out with Lepers. Seriously, from the outside looking in, this guy was nuts.

And I think we’re starting to get into something deeper than just music here. (ie the Vernacular, music history, Jesus’s actual face as a person) If you want to have a discussion about that, I’m all for it, but I don’t think it quite falls under teenagers and music.

 

[benedictgal]

Last weekend, I attended the “youth Mass” at our parish. It really is a misnomer because most of the faithful have families with small children and there is a mix of middle-age, golden-age and a smattering of teens.

The music comes from Spirit and Song. A lot of the stuff is performance-oriented and would fall under the category of banal and trite. I asked the choir director why we were stuck with this kind of music and why, a really talented choir made up of folks who also sing at the local philhamonic chorale, would waste their gifts on this stuff. She said that “we had to make the Mass interesting for the kids.” What kids? The choir is middle-aged. The cantor is in his 50s.

When we “feel” that we have to make the Mass interesting by using lite pop music that doesn’t have the Sensus Fideum and is the antithesis of what the Popes have declared, then we have some serious problems.

We pray as we believe. Unfortunately, this kind of music does nothing to reinforce that.

 

[jjschlueter23]

Right. So 40 year olds should play music like 40 year olds and teenagers should play music like teenagers. That means using some contemporary stuff. That’s basically my entire point.

 

[benedictgal]

Sorry japhy. I didn’t see your reply there.

Jesus was too a radical. Eat My Body, Drink My Blood. He hung out with Lepers. Seriously, from the outside looking in, this guy was nuts.

And I think we’re starting to get into something deeper than just music here. (ie the Vernacular, music history, Jesus’s actual face as a person) If you want to have a discussion about that, I’m all for it, but I don’t think it quite falls under teenagers and music.

Actually, Jesus wasn’t a radical. The eating of His Body and drinking of HIs Blood was foreshadowed in Ancient Israel through the sacrifice of the Passover Lamb and the other holocausts offered to God for the remission of sins. After all, He is the Lamb of God and is the eternal Paschal Sacrifice. The Mass is the Holy Sacrifice.

That major fact is something that Protestant contemporary music (which is used a lot at these Youth Masses and which, the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist saw as problematic) fails to take into account. A lot of this kind of music is feel-good, let’s celebrate ourselves and I’m okay, you’re okay. It talks about the community rather than center on why we come to Mass. Failing to take the sacrificial element and tossing it aside is bad. It’s not even Catholic Theology. You can’t have the Sacred Meal without the Sacriifice. As far as the music is concerned, it ignores that major tenent of our Faith.

 

[japhy]

Jesus was too a radical. Eat My Body, Drink My Blood. He hung out with Lepers. Seriously, from the outside looking in, this guy was nuts.

From the outside looking in, then, I would say that a reverent liturgy celebrated in accordance with the traditions of the Roman Rite – with Latin, chant, and ad orientem to start – is more “radical” than a liturgy that looks like a Christian Contemporary Music sing-along/concert with some preaching and a weird meal added in.

The liturgy (properly celebrated) is not what the world expects to see. Not 2000 years ago, not 1000 years ago, and not today. That is “radical”.

And I think we’re starting to get into something deeper than just music here. (ie the Vernacular, music history, Jesus’s actual face as a person) If you want to have a discussion about that, I’m all for it, but I don’t think it quite falls under teenagers and music.

I think it is still relevant to this thread. I think a pop-concert feel to the Mass (with bits of reverence sprinkled in) is leading to a lack of balance in our youth. There are plenty of Christian (and even Catholic) concert/worship events, but none of them has the power, the potency, the reverence, the history, and the tradition of the Mass. Why not give our youths – and all Catholics, really – a reverent, traditional, and universal Mass that they can supplement with all the personal and group piety they wish? The Church got along doing that for quite some time.

 

[japhy]

Right. So 40 year olds should play music like 40 year olds and teenagers should play music like teenagers. That means using some contemporary stuff. That’s basically my entire point.

So only the people who are the same age as Gregorian chant can use it?

And who are you to say what “40 year old music” is, or “teenage” music is? You’re denying the universal. Why stop with music? Why not have a Mass just for toddlers, a Mass just for elementary school kids, a Mass for high school kids, a Mass for college students, a Mass for young adults, a Mass for 30-somethings, etc.?

(Edit: There is also contemporary chant and polyphony.)

 

[benedictgal]

Right. So 40 year olds should play music like 40 year olds and teenagers should play music like teenagers. That means using some contemporary stuff. That’s basically my entire point.

I don’t think you read my entire post. I noted that the choir director said that “we had to make the Mass interesting for the kids.” Where were these “kids” and, if that argument held true, why weren’t they a part of the choir singing these horrid songs?

Her argument really doesn’t hold water.

 

[snhs]

Just because the Church favors something doesn’t make it right. The Church has been wrong plenty of times (Galileo… ect.). If I’m not mistaken (and I very well could be), it actually took the Church 'til 1992 to officially revamp their statement on the Earth being the center of the universe. We’re pretty slow to change, and most people don’t wait around for that change to happen. If we just waited for the Church to change it never would. We’ve got to be the ones to step up and say “I’m being the change I wish to see” like Gandhi said.

Yes you are right that people who come to church just to listen to their friends play guitar aren’t going to get out of it. The same can be true for people who come to watch Gregorian chant, although I’m not aware of anyone that would actually want to come to watch that. But if these people play on a regular basis and people come to watch on a regular basis, there will be people that start paying attention to other parts of the Mass I can assure you of that. It’s similar to the new people who walk in off the streets and sit down in the back. They’ve got no clue what’s going on either. They’re probably going listen to the music because they can understand that and that can help them build their understanding of the rest of Mass.

Singing in Latin, and actually saying the Mass in Latin, to me, sound like exclusive gestures. We’re sending the message that if you don’t know our fancy language, you’ll have no idea what’s going on or what to do. That is not the way I pictured Christ reaching out to the beggars of the streets.

Contemporary music is not chipping away at the rock to put in a hot tub. It’s building an above ground pool. You’re taking the music we’ve already got and building on it. Keep in mind this is centuries of building, but still building.

It’s also worth remembering that Jesus was a total radical. He didn’t get caught up in the grandeur of the religious zealots. He was practical and to the point. I think the church is losing some of that with all the majestic ceremonies we have. Don’t get me wrong, God is 100% worth that, but whenever I sit through some extravagant Mass or service I’m always thinking how we could spend our time actually helping the poorest of the poor and reaching out to the least of the world instead of just praying for them.

I believe that music can lighten the soul and should be used to reach to those people inside and outside of Mass. That is something Gregorian chant can’t do.

So your position has went to saying that the Church is wrong and that you’re going to wait until God provides you the answer Himself? How about this you listen to the Church, to what the Successor of Peter says, because it is the Church and not you who has the authority to bind and loose. If the Church one day decides ‘Yep, we were wrong about Gregorian Chant, break out the electric guitars and set up the drumkits, forget about that stuff about it needing to be holy, or art or ideally part of the text of Mass’ then fine exactly what you want can occur. Until that day however what the Church has said on the matter stands and it is that and not some, to be frank, ridiculous argument with no worthwhile basis which we should be using to decide what is played during the Mass regardless of the congregation’s age composition. Gandhi wasn’t Catholic if I remember correctly. I also seem to remember that Gandhi didn’t break any laws unless they were unjust, e.g. in the case of making salt from the sea. Are you disputing the right of the Church to set criteria for what music is suitable for use during the Mass?

So you accept that your youth minister’s statement was flawed? The old pack the pews argument again, so you want the Church to cater for only those musical tastes which maximise the number of people who may come to listen to it? You want the Church to change its policy from demanding something holy and which is art to allowing whatever gets the most people to come? If it contains something which explains what is going on during the Mass perhaps it can, the theologically fluffy songs too often made up by contemporary composers seldom if ever seem to do that though.

So you’ve now changed it from music to a blatantly transparent attempt at changing the argument to Latin vs. vernacular? You really must be getting desperate if you’re trying such weak tactics. Did I miss the directive from the Vatican that Gregorian Chant could only be composed in Latin? I don’t think anything in VoiciMike’s post states even an indirect preference for one language over another.

In what way can it be construed as building upon it when you’re concreting it over? Or in your case hammering it out. In what way does today’s contemporary music ‘build’ on Gregorian Chant? Perhaps you can back up your claim that “You’re taking the music we’ve already got and building on it.” by tracing this line back for us from the ‘music’ you advocate to Gregorian Chant.

There is a similar thread to this going on at present, and someone made a similar point to the one you’ve just made. The response they got was that when a woman poured expensive oil over Our Lord’s feet it was one of the 12 who objected, saying that it could have been sold to help the poor. Do you remember what Our Lord’s response was to him, do you remember that it was Judas Iscariot who objected? You also appear to have forgotten the power of prayer, it is not ‘just praying for them’.

I think a lot of people disagree with you there for example here and here.

 

[VociMike]

Let’s everybody cool down. We’re all here to praise the Lord in the best way we can - let’s all keep that in mind.

But not just in the best way we can. Also in the way he calls for, as he has informed his Church.

 

[VociMike]

I’m Catholic because I believe in most of what the Catholic church says. There’s minor stuff, like this, that we have our disagreements on.

The liturgy is not “minor stuff”. Far, far from it. The Eucharist is “the source and summit of Christian life”, and the liturgy is where the Eucharist is made present.

Think the liturgy is “minor stuff”? Pope Benedict doesn’t think so. He wrote “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today largely derives from the disintegration of the liturgy.”

Ponder those words. The crisis in the Church is due largely to the disintegration of the liturgy. Doesn’t that sound like major stuff to you?

Now, is music related to the disintegration of the liturgy? Well, Vatican II teaches that music is pars integrans, a necessary and integral part of the liturgy. So, yes, the current musical situation is a critical part of the disintegration of the liturgy.

And a lot of us just want to help fix that. And the Church tells us how.

BTW, read this article and have your assumptions about teens and church music challenged right down to your toes.

 

[benedictgal]

The liturgy is not “minor stuff”. Far, far from it. The Eucharist is “the source and summit of Christian life”, and the liturgy is where the Eucharist is made present.

Think the liturgy is “minor stuff”? Pope Benedict doesn’t think so. He wrote “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today largely derives from the disintegration of the liturgy.”

Ponder those words. The crisis in the Church is due largely to the disintegration of the liturgy. Doesn’t that sound like major stuff to you?

Now, is music related to the disintegration of the liturgy? Well, Vatican II teaches that music is pars integrans, a necessary and integral part of the liturgy. So, yes, the current musical situation is a critical part of the disintegration of the liturgy.

And a lot of us just want to help fix that. And the Church tells us how.

We also forget that the first commandment is to love God. Loving God means offering Him worship that is fitting, solemn, beutiful, dignified and magnificent. If we get this wrong, then everything else falls apart. To say that the liturgy is minor stuff is to completely misunderstand the fact that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the Church’s supreme act of worship.

 

[ethelzguy]

So only the people who are the same age as Gregorian chant can use it?

And who are you to say what “40 year old music” is, or “teenage” music is? You’re denying the universal. Why stop with music? Why not have a Mass just for toddlers, a Mass just for elementary school kids, a Mass for high school kids, a Mass for college students, a Mass for young adults, a Mass for 30-somethings, etc.?

(Edit: There is also contemporary chant and polyphony.)

Well, we do have a seperate liturgy for Children’s Mass, no?