Teenagers and Church Music

[snhs]

Of course it’s occurred to me.

And I’m sure a lot of people attend all kinds of Masses, not just Life Teen, because it’s a convenient time for them, or to meet their friends. So?

…

The teens themselves are the ones who present the music at Life Teen. If it is 70s “geezer” rock–well, they play it anyway.

Consider this–for several years, the keyboardist for the Life Teen Mass was a young lady who did a very nice job with the rock-style songs. I can picture her sitting there with her long flowing hair, singing her heart out–Lord I Lift Your Name On High" while she played. When she graduated from high school a few years ago, she entered a contemplative convent. Today she is a contemplative sister.

And people say that Life Teen is not conducive to prayer and contemplation?

So your argument is that the teens are attending this Mass out of preference for the music. You then inflate your argument by telling us about how many people are there, what I am pointing out to you and anyone else who might be reading is that there are many reasons why someone may end up attending such a Mass. Do you have anyway of demonstrating why they come to this Mass in preference to another? Unless you do it is legitimate to point out that they may choose to attend this Mass for numerous reasons.

Are they choosing it? Somehow I doubt it. The fact they play it doesn’t actually change what kind of music it. I played in the school band for years and we played a lot of pieces which were written before we were born because that’s what we were given to play. And I’m fairly certain if you ask them if there’s other songs they’d rather be playing they could tell you a few.

I’m sorry but you are on shaky ground going down the anecdotal route. The TLM and Gregorian Chant have been around for centuries, if you like I can pick out a couple of Saints who somehow or other managed to become Brothers, Priests or Nuns and all while attending the Mass in Latin, often with Gregorian Chant instead of a pastiche of whatever they may have listened to in secular spheres.

For some reason I don’t think she had some sort of epiphany while they were tuning the guitars, although I could be wrong my guess is that choice came from prayer and quiet contemplation. It’s good to hear about someone making that kind of choice, but there are far fewer making that commitment today than there once were.

If that is so then perhaps you can explain how all these Saints managed to get by on the TLM and Chant? After all how did they manage to contemplate or pray about anything without keyboards and guitars.

 

[Cat]

Right so one minute you tell us that if we "take it (their music) away from them (presumably during the Mass). That will only foster rebellion.". The next you are telling us that these are the same people who feel strongly enough about their faith that they go to Adoration where they can somehow manage to pray in silence with not a guitar or drum kit in sight?

Perhaps you can explain your logic here.

You said, and I quote, “The Spanish parish is quite full, and the Polish Mass also attracts a respectable number. I’ve been in their church and heard them sing hymns in Polish. Fascinating.” Now if you have never been to their Mass I would suggest you cannot actually speak on the numbers attending, so although I may have made an error it was due to a misleading statement on your part.

So now anything that has gone on for several years in a Parish suddenly has the support of the Bishop? Unless you can back up your statement it is misleading to say Bishop Doran supports something.

And all of that is most admirable, however it still doesn’t constitute him supporting LT. That as may be, but if he wanted it in his Diocese and had so willed it you should be able to produce a statement of some sort to back it up. There is a vast, vast difference between a Bishop tolerating something and supporting it.

I also wonder why three consecutive Bishops have felt the need to enforce this so strongly on their Priests, don’t get me wrong I think its great that he is supporting and advocating sound liturgy but would they really need to keep hammering the point unless there are some who persist in error?

I’m not aware of insulting the Bishop of Rockford in the slightest, it was your attitude which I was calling into question. The Church has not now, nor has it ever said that anyone who prefers having the TLM or Gregorian Chant should be shunted into a Parish and ignored by the rest while they carry on as they wish. Indeed that is the exact opposite of what Pope Benedict called for in the Moto Proprio, he spoke of mutual enrichment. Perhaps you could explain how that could happen when your own attitude treats them like Granny in the Attic, something to be tolerated or ignored.

We normally speak in Diocese when discussing Church matters. For example it may be true that everyone in the city can hop on a bus and get to the TLM Parish in five seconds flat, I rather doubt that would be true outwith the main city. Similarly what are public transport links like for older people or young people who may but can’t drive?

You may be interested to know I had a quick look through a few of Bishop Doran’s columns, and I’m sure you will want to follow what he has said. For example in his column on Aug 31st 2007 he writes “The music was very appropriate and particular Latin hymns dear to the hearts of all of us were sung” later he states "One of the losses that has taken place in the liturgical renewal is the practical extinction of our traditional Catholic Latin hymns. Choirs can no longer sing them and hymnals no longer feature them with the Latin and English text side by side. It may seem a small point but it is one that grates on all of us who are as young as I am. " and then “However, the hymnals and the music that I grew up with were drawn from Catholic sources. Much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion and some of it is, if you will excuse the term, dreck. I have commented elsewhere about our propensity to omit singing the second half of the Ave Maria which for us, the living and for those who are dying, is all important.”. “Dreck”, what an apt word that is.

Don’t you think it is possible for the same people who enjoy rock music to also enjoy silent contemplation and prayer?

 

[Cat]

Right so one minute you tell us that if we “take it (their music) away from them (presumably during the Mass). That will only foster rebellion.”. The next you are telling us that these are the same people who feel strongly enough about their faith that they go to Adoration where they can somehow manage to pray in silence with not a guitar or drum kit in sight?

Perhaps you can explain your logic here.

You said, and I quote, “The Spanish parish is quite full, and the Polish Mass also attracts a respectable number. I’ve been in their church and heard them sing hymns in Polish. Fascinating.” Now if you have never been to their Mass I would suggest you cannot actually speak on the numbers attending, so although I may have made an error it was due to a misleading statement on your part.

So now anything that has gone on for several years in a Parish suddenly has the support of the Bishop? Unless you can back up your statement it is misleading to say Bishop Doran supports something.

And all of that is most admirable, however it still doesn’t constitute him supporting LT. That as may be, but if he wanted it in his Diocese and had so willed it you should be able to produce a statement of some sort to back it up. There is a vast, vast difference between a Bishop tolerating something and supporting it.

I also wonder why three consecutive Bishops have felt the need to enforce this so strongly on their Priests, don’t get me wrong I think its great that he is supporting and advocating sound liturgy but would they really need to keep hammering the point unless there are some who persist in error?

I’m not aware of insulting the Bishop of Rockford in the slightest, it was your attitude which I was calling into question. The Church has not now, nor has it ever said that anyone who prefers having the TLM or Gregorian Chant should be shunted into a Parish and ignored by the rest while they carry on as they wish. Indeed that is the exact opposite of what Pope Benedict called for in the Moto Proprio, he spoke of mutual enrichment. Perhaps you could explain how that could happen when your own attitude treats them like Granny in the Attic, something to be tolerated or ignored.

We normally speak in Diocese when discussing Church matters. For example it may be true that everyone in the city can hop on a bus and get to the TLM Parish in five seconds flat, I rather doubt that would be true outwith the main city. Similarly what are public transport links like for older people or young people who may but can’t drive?

You may be interested to know I had a quick look through a few of Bishop Doran’s columns, and I’m sure you will want to follow what he has said. For example in his column on Aug 31st 2007 he writes “The music was very appropriate and particular Latin hymns dear to the hearts of all of us were sung” later he states "One of the losses that has taken place in the liturgical renewal is the practical extinction of our traditional Catholic Latin hymns. Choirs can no longer sing them and hymnals no longer feature them with the Latin and English text side by side. It may seem a small point but it is one that grates on all of us who are as young as I am. " and then “However, the hymnals and the music that I grew up with were drawn from Catholic sources. Much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion and some of it is, if you will excuse the term, dreck. I have commented elsewhere about our propensity to omit singing the second half of the Ave Maria which for us, the living and for those who are dying, is all important.”. “Dreck”, what an apt word that is.

I apologize for making a misleading statement. I had no intention of leading you into making an error.

I attended a dramatic presentation on Divine Mercy Sunday on Sunday afternoon in which a religious Sister portrayed St. Faustina. She then led us in the Divine Mercy Chaplet.

Before the presentation, hymns were sung.

The church was packed. A friend of mine who attends this parish tells me that it usually is packed at Mass with Polish Americans. So I was basing my assessment on her statement.

 

[Cat]

Right so one minute you tell us that if we “take it (their music) away from them (presumably during the Mass). That will only foster rebellion.”. The next you are telling us that these are the same people who feel strongly enough about their faith that they go to Adoration where they can somehow manage to pray in silence with not a guitar or drum kit in sight?

Perhaps you can explain your logic here.

You said, and I quote, “The Spanish parish is quite full, and the Polish Mass also attracts a respectable number. I’ve been in their church and heard them sing hymns in Polish. Fascinating.” Now if you have never been to their Mass I would suggest you cannot actually speak on the numbers attending, so although I may have made an error it was due to a misleading statement on your part.

So now anything that has gone on for several years in a Parish suddenly has the support of the Bishop? Unless you can back up your statement it is misleading to say Bishop Doran supports something.

And all of that is most admirable, however it still doesn’t constitute him supporting LT. That as may be, but if he wanted it in his Diocese and had so willed it **you should be able to produce a statement of some sort to back it up. There **is a vast, vast difference between a Bishop tolerating something and supporting it.

I also wonder why three consecutive Bishops have felt the need to enforce this so strongly on their Priests, don’t get me wrong I think its great that he is supporting and advocating sound liturgy but would they really need to keep hammering the point unless there are some who persist in error?

I’m not aware of insulting the Bishop of Rockford in the slightest, it was your attitude which I was calling into question. The Church has not now, nor has it ever said that anyone who prefers having the TLM or Gregorian Chant should be shunted into a Parish and ignored by the rest while they carry on as they wish. Indeed that is the exact opposite of what Pope Benedict called for in the Moto Proprio, he spoke of mutual enrichment. Perhaps you could explain how that could happen when your own attitude treats them like Granny in the Attic, something to be tolerated or ignored.

We normally speak in Diocese when discussing Church matters. For example it may be true that everyone in the city can hop on a bus and get to the TLM Parish in five seconds flat, I rather doubt that would be true outwith the main city. Similarly what are public transport links like for older people or young people who may but can’t drive?

You may be interested to know I had a quick look through a few of Bishop Doran’s columns, and I’m sure you will want to follow what he has said. For example in his column on Aug 31st 2007 he writes “The music was very appropriate and particular Latin hymns dear to the hearts of all of us were sung” later he states "One of the losses that has taken place in the liturgical renewal is the practical extinction of our traditional Catholic Latin hymns. Choirs can no longer sing them and hymnals no longer feature them with the Latin and English text side by side. It may seem a small point but it is one that grates on all of us who are as young as I am. " and then “However, the hymnals and the music that I grew up with were drawn from Catholic sources. Much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion and some of it is, if you will excuse the term, dreck. I have commented elsewhere about our propensity to omit singing the second half of the Ave Maria which for us, the living and for those who are dying, is all important.”. “Dreck”, what an apt word that is.

I should be able to do lots of things, but I can’t. I am sorry that I am a 51 year-old woman who can’t find any articles online that Bishop Doran has written specifically stating that he supports Life Teen.

What I can tell you, as a member of one of the largest parishes in our diocese is that other members, long -time Catholics, tell me that Bishop Doran supports Life Teen. You, snhs, do not live in this diocese. You are making a lot of assumptions. I may be using anecdotal evidence, but at least I’ve actually experienced the anecdotes that I describe. You haven’t.

 

[Cat]

Right so one minute you tell us that if we “take it (their music) away from them (presumably during the Mass). That will only foster rebellion.”. The next you are telling us that these are the same people who feel strongly enough about their faith that they go to Adoration where they can somehow manage to pray in silence with not a guitar or drum kit in sight?

Perhaps you can explain your logic here.

You said, and I quote, “The Spanish parish is quite full, and the Polish Mass also attracts a respectable number. I’ve been in their church and heard them sing hymns in Polish. Fascinating.” Now if you have never been to their Mass I would suggest you cannot actually speak on the numbers attending, so although I may have made an error it was due to a misleading statement on your part.

So now anything that has gone on for several years in a Parish suddenly has the support of the Bishop? Unless you can back up your statement it is misleading to say Bishop Doran supports something.

And all of that is most admirable, however it still doesn’t constitute him supporting LT. That as may be, but if he wanted it in his Diocese and had so willed it you should be able to produce a statement of some sort to back it up. There is a vast, vast difference between a Bishop tolerating something and supporting it.

I also wonder why three consecutive Bishops have felt the need to enforce this so strongly on their Priests, don’t get me wrong I think its great that he is supporting and advocating sound liturgy but would they really need to keep hammering the point unless there are some who persist in error?

I’m not aware of insulting the Bishop of Rockford in the slightest, it was your attitude which I was calling into question. The Church has not now, nor has it ever said that anyone who prefers having the TLM or Gregorian Chant should be shunted into a Parish and ignored by the rest while they carry on as they wish. Indeed that is the exact opposite of what Pope Benedict called for in the Moto Proprio, he spoke of mutual enrichment. Perhaps you could explain how that could happen when your own attitude treats them like Granny in the Attic, something to be tolerated or ignored.

We normally speak in Diocese when discussing Church matters. For example it may be true that everyone in the city can hop on a bus and get to the TLM Parish in five seconds flat, I rather doubt that would be true outwith the main city. Similarly what are public transport links like for older people or young people who may but can’t drive?

You may be interested to know I had a quick look through a few of Bishop Doran’s columns, and I’m sure you will want to follow what he has said. For example in his column on Aug 31st 2007 he writes “The music was very appropriate and particular Latin hymns dear to the hearts of all of us were sung” later he states "One of the losses that has taken place in the liturgical renewal is the practical extinction of our traditional Catholic Latin hymns. Choirs can no longer sing them and hymnals no longer feature them with the Latin and English text side by side. It may seem a small point but it is one that grates on all of us who are as young as I am. " and then “However, the hymnals and the music that I grew up with were drawn from Catholic sources. Much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion and some of it is, if you will excuse the term, dreck. I have commented elsewhere about our propensity to omit singing the second half of the Ave Maria which for us, the living and for those who are dying, is all important.”. “Dreck”, what an apt word that is.

Forgive me, please. I have been a Catholic for four years, and I was unaware that “we” normally speak of dioceses when discussing Church matters."

As for transportation to the TLM–well, the public transportation in our city is pretty bad. It would hard to get to any parish in our city using public transportation.

But I think that in our city, if a person wanted to attend TLM and couldn’t drive because of age, they could call the Oratory or the Diocese and I’ll bet that they would arrange for someone to pick them up. There are several families with teenagers and children who attend the TLM, and I’m sure that they would be happy to have another teen on board their van. And almost anyone would be willing to pick up a senior citizen or two and transport them to Mass–what a lovely service! We have a very friendly city. Again, if that’s not the way it is in your city, I’m sorry. I live here, and I know the people in my city better than you do, so don’t try to tell me that they wouldn’t do this. They would.

 

[Cat]

Right so one minute you tell us that if we “take it (their music) away from them (presumably during the Mass). That will only foster rebellion.”. The next you are telling us that these are the same people who feel strongly enough about their faith that they go to Adoration where they can somehow manage to pray in silence with not a guitar or drum kit in sight?

Perhaps you can explain your logic here.

You said, and I quote, “The Spanish parish is quite full, and the Polish Mass also attracts a respectable number. I’ve been in their church and heard them sing hymns in Polish. Fascinating.” Now if you have never been to their Mass I would suggest you cannot actually speak on the numbers attending, so although I may have made an error it was due to a misleading statement on your part.

So now anything that has gone on for several years in a Parish suddenly has the support of the Bishop? Unless you can back up your statement it is misleading to say Bishop Doran supports something.

And all of that is most admirable, however it still doesn’t constitute him supporting LT. That as may be, but if he wanted it in his Diocese and had so willed it you should be able to produce a statement of some sort to back it up. There is a vast, vast difference between a Bishop tolerating something and supporting it.

I also wonder why three consecutive Bishops have felt the need to enforce this so strongly on their Priests, don’t get me wrong I think its great that he is supporting and advocating sound liturgy but would they really need to keep hammering the point unless there are some who persist in error?

I’m not aware of insulting the Bishop of Rockford in the slightest, it was your attitude which I was calling into question. The Church has not now, nor has it ever said that anyone who prefers having the TLM or Gregorian Chant should be shunted into a Parish and ignored by the rest while they carry on as they wish. Indeed that is the exact opposite of what Pope Benedict called for in the Moto Proprio, he spoke of mutual enrichment. Perhaps you could explain how that could happen when your own attitude treats them like Granny in the Attic, something to be tolerated or ignored.

We normally speak in Diocese when discussing Church matters. For example it may be true that everyone in the city can hop on a bus and get to the TLM Parish in five seconds flat, I rather doubt that would be true outwith the main city. Similarly what are public transport links like for older people or young people who may but can’t drive?

You may be interested to know I had a quick look through a few of Bishop Doran’s columns, and I’m sure you will want to follow what he has said. For example in his column on Aug 31st 2007 he writes “The music was very appropriate and particular Latin hymns dear to the hearts of all of us were sung” later he states "One of the losses that has taken place in the liturgical renewal is the practical extinction of our traditional Catholic Latin hymns. Choirs can no longer sing them and hymnals no longer feature them with the Latin and English text side by side. It may seem a small point but it is one that grates on all of us who are as young as I am. " and then “However, the hymnals and the music that I grew up with were drawn from Catholic sources. Much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion and some of it is, if you will excuse the term, dreck. I have commented elsewhere about our propensity to omit singing the second half of the Ave Maria which for us, the living and for those who are dying, is all important.”. “Dreck”, what an apt word that is.

I’m glad you read some of his articles. He’s a wonderful apostle, isn’t he?

Yes, Bishop Doran supports traditional music in his diocese. But he uses “Gather Us In” as the Theme Song on his weekly radio program.

If you continue to read Bishop Doran’s writings, you will see that while he continues to revere tradition and honor the history and heritage of Holy Mother Church, he is also open to new works of the Holy Spirit. I’ve heard him say this several times on his weekly radio show.

I will be attending a Mass presided over by Bishop Doran tomorrow evening at the Catholic Family Conference in Elgin, Illinois. I will try to find time to report back on what music setting is used for the Mass, and what the hymns are. I assume that since the Conference is being held on a college campus, that we will hear some very beautiful traditional music. I’m really looking forward to hearing Bishop Doran’s homily. Every time I hear him, I tremble and rejoice in my soul–he speaks the True Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Cat]

So your argument is that the teens are attending this Mass out of preference for the music. You then inflate your argument by telling us about how many people are there, what I am pointing out to you and anyone else who might be reading is that there are many reasons why someone may end up attending such a Mass. Do you have anyway of demonstrating why they come to this Mass in preference to another? Unless you do it is legitimate to point out that they may choose to attend this Mass for numerous reasons.

Are they choosing it? Somehow I doubt it. The fact they play it doesn’t actually change what kind of music it. I played in the school band for years and we played a lot of pieces which were written before we were born because that’s what we were given to play. And I’m fairly certain if you ask them if there’s other songs they’d rather be playing they could tell you a few.

I’m sorry but you are on shaky ground going down the anecdotal route. The TLM and Gregorian Chant have been around for centuries, if you like I can pick out a couple of Saints who somehow or other managed to become Brothers, Priests or Nuns and all while attending the Mass in Latin, often with Gregorian Chant instead of a pastiche of whatever they may have listened to in secular spheres.

For some reason I don’t think she had some sort of epiphany while they were tuning the guitars, although I could be wrong my guess is that choice came from prayer and quiet contemplation. It’s good to hear about someone making that kind of choice, but there are far fewer making that commitment today than there once were.

If that is so then perhaps you can explain how all these Saints managed to get by on the TLM and Chant? After all how did they manage to contemplate or pray about anything without keyboards and guitars.

I think it is amazing that you know more about the people in my parish than I do.

I KNOW these teens. You don’t. Please stop making assumptions about them. You doubt that they are choosing this Mass or the Life Teen soft rock music? How can you possibly make this assumption about people and a parish that you have never known. I KNOW that many of the people, including the teenagers, who come to Life Teen LOVE the music! I KNOW THEM. You don’t!

As for the rest of your observations about saints–until Vatican II came along, the Latin Mass was all there was (as far as I know). It’s only been about 40 years since the NO form of the Mass was introduced. It’s much too early to say how many Christians who grew up in NO Mass will be canonized by the Church as saints. In two thousand years, we will be able to make that assessment. But right now, we cannot say. Forty years is not even a lifetime.

As to how the saints managed to pray and contemplate our Lord without guitars and keyboards–may I ask you a question, please? How was St. Maximilian Kolbe able to pray in the midst of the screams of the tortured and dying at Auschwitz?

Prayer and contemplation does NOT depend on the background music and noise, **neither is it upset or disarrayed by background music and noise. ** Prayer and contemplation happen in the stillness of the soul, and the soul can be still when surrounded by the noise of various kinds of music and chatter, or even when emcompassed all around by the terrors of a concentration camp.

 

[snhs]

Don’t you think it is possible for the same people who enjoy rock music to also enjoy silent contemplation and prayer?

Indeed, but don’t you think that if they are as well catechised as you say they are hardly likely to ‘rebel’, as you put it, if a Priest decides its time to go back to Gregorian Chant and other music more in tune with that which the Pope’s writings and Church Documents lead us towards? Not least if the Priest were to explain to them why Pope Benedict, Pope John Paul II and others have taken this view.

You already mentioned, in the same post I think, that teenagers will follow people they love and trust. As I pointed out they have already shown that willingness to follow the Pope and his view seems pretty clear when you look back on the quotes provided, all it takes is a Priest or Bishop to stand up to these ‘youth ministers’ and say this is what the Church says, this is why they say it and this is how we’re going to do it.

I should be able to do lots of things, but I can’t. I am sorry that I am a 51 year-old woman who can’t find any articles online that Bishop Doran has written specifically stating that he supports Life Teen.

What I can tell you, as a member of one of the largest parishes in our diocese is that other members, long -time Catholics, tell me that Bishop Doran supports Life Teen. You, snhs, do not live in this diocese. You are making a lot of assumptions. I may be using anecdotal evidence, but at least I’ve actually experienced the anecdotes that I describe. You haven’t.

I wouldn’t feel too bad about it. After all I haven’t managed to either. Although coincidentally my search did lead me to a blog which was praising Bishop Doran on one of his letters and also contained a link to here, which rather flies in the face of your argument that young people would suddenly rebel at the lose of ‘their music’. In fact the top results from my searches all seem to come to comments you have made about Bishop Doran’s support for it.

I’m trying to avoid making assumptions. But I’m afraid it isn’t appropriate for you to found your argument on the ‘support’ of a Bishop for a programme when there is apparently no evidence for it.

Forgive me, please. I have been a Catholic for four years, and I was unaware that “we” normally speak of dioceses when discussing Church matters."

As for transportation to the TLM–well, the public transportation in our city is pretty bad. It would hard to get to any parish in our city using public transportation.

But I think that in our city, if a person wanted to attend TLM and couldn’t drive because of age, they could call the Oratory or the Diocese and I’ll bet that they would arrange for someone to pick them up. There are several families with teenagers and children who attend the TLM, and I’m sure that they would be happy to have another teen on board their van. And almost anyone would be willing to pick up a senior citizen or two and transport them to Mass–what a lovely service! We have a very friendly city. Again, if that’s not the way it is in your city, I’m sorry. I live here, and I know the people in my city better than you do, so don’t try to tell me that they wouldn’t do this. They would.

Well that is the system that it used, its the system the Bishop has authority over. If you look at one part of a Diocese you could get radically different views from looking at the whole Diocese.

So it would be rather difficult for teenagers to get to the TLM even if they wanted to. As a result very few of them will ever have attended a TLM, similarly relatively few may have heard Gregorian Chant or polyphony in its proper context.

Well I’m not going to, but it is something which we should bear in mind when we talk about how much teenagers apparently like going to Teen Masses. The fact is they are at a convenient time for most of them, a lot of their friend’s will be there, its at the local Church. I’d argue that for most of them those are of greater concern than what songs their youth ‘leaders’ might choose.

I’m glad you read some of his articles. He’s a wonderful apostle, isn’t he?

Yes, Bishop Doran supports traditional music in his diocese. But he uses “Gather Us In” as the Theme Song on his weekly radio program.

If you continue to read Bishop Doran’s writings, you will see that while he continues to revere tradition and honor the history and heritage of Holy Mother Church, he is also open to new works of the Holy Spirit. I’ve heard him say this several times on his weekly radio show.

I will be attending a Mass presided over by Bishop Doran tomorrow evening at the Catholic Family Conference in Elgin, Illinois. I will try to find time to report back on what music setting is used for the Mass, and what the hymns are. I assume that since the Conference is being held on a college campus, that we will hear some very beautiful traditional music. I’m really looking forward to hearing Bishop Doran’s homily. Every time I hear him, I tremble and rejoice in my soul–he speaks the True Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Yes, he seems very able and puts forward the Church’s teachings well.

A radio programme is not a Mass, however.

Yes, and that is just as it should be. But he seems to be making the point in the quote that we have lost a lot of the Catholic music which belongs in the Church, he even talks about the hymnals and the problems with them. How “much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion”, he obviously sees that as something worth bringing to attention and, at least from my reading, there is a stark contrast between the “very appropriate” music, including some hymns in Latin, and what he classifies as not being “from the Catholic tradition”.

I hope you enjoy it and all goes well.

 

[Cat]

Indeed, but don’t you think that if they are as well catechised as you say they are hardly likely to ‘rebel’, as you put it, if a Priest decides its time to go back to Gregorian Chant and other music more in tune with that which the Pope’s writings and Church Documents lead us towards? Not least if the Priest were to explain to them why Pope Benedict, Pope John Paul II and others have taken this view.
You already mentioned, in the same post I think, that teenagers will follow people they love and trust. As I pointed out they have already shown that willingness to follow the Pope and his view seems pretty clear when you look back on the quotes provided, all it takes is a Priest or Bishop to stand up to these ‘youth ministers’ and say this is what the Church says, this is why they say it and this is how we’re going to do it.

I wouldn’t feel too bad about it. After all I haven’t managed to either. Although coincidentally my search did lead me to a blog which was praising Bishop Doran on one of his letters and also contained a link to here, which rather flies in the face of your argument that young people would suddenly rebel at the lose of ‘their music’. In fact the top results from my searches all seem to come to comments you have made about Bishop Doran’s support for it.

I’m trying to avoid making assumptions. But I’m afraid it isn’t appropriate for you to found your argument on the ‘support’ of a Bishop for a programme when there is apparently no evidence for it.

Well that is the system that it used, its the system the Bishop has authority over. If you look at one part of a Diocese you could get radically different views from looking at the whole Diocese.

So it would be rather difficult for teenagers to get to the TLM even if they wanted to. As a result very few of them will ever have attended a TLM, similarly relatively few may have heard Gregorian Chant or polyphony in its proper context.

Well I’m not going to, but it is something which we should bear in mind when we talk about how much teenagers apparently like going to Teen Masses. The fact is they are at a convenient time for most of them, a lot of their friend’s will be there, its at the local Church. I’d argue that for most of them those are of greater concern than what songs their youth ‘leaders’ might choose.

Yes, he seems very able and puts forward the Church’s teachings well.

A radio programme is not a Mass, however.

Yes, and that is just as it should be. But he seems to be making the point in the quote that we have lost a lot of the Catholic music which belongs in the Church, he even talks about the hymnals and the problems with them. How “much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion”, he obviously sees that as something worth bringing to attention and, at least from my reading, there is a stark contrast between the “very appropriate” music, including some hymns in Latin, and what he classifies as not being “from the Catholic tradition”.

I hope you enjoy it and all goes well.

I agree with you that our teens would indeed be docile and submit to the Pope and our Bishop should they ban the Life Teen songs and institute a “Latin and chant” only for musical settings for Mass.

But they have not done that. And I don’t think they will.

What I was referring to is laypeople who don’t even work with teenagers but who believe that they can dictate to the teenagers what kind of music they should have in Mass.

 

[snhs]

I think it is amazing that you know more about the people in my parish than I do.

I KNOW these teens. You don’t. Please stop making assumptions about them. You doubt that they are choosing this Mass or the Life Teen soft rock music? How can you possibly make this assumption about people and a parish that you have never known. I KNOW that many of the people, including the teenagers, who come to Life Teen LOVE the music! I KNOW THEM. You don’t!

As for the rest of your observations about saints–until Vatican II came along, the Latin Mass was all there was (as far as I know). It’s only been about 40 years since the NO form of the Mass was introduced. It’s much too early to say how many Christians who grew up in NO Mass will be canonized by the Church as saints. In two thousand years, we will be able to make that assessment. But right now, we cannot say. Forty years is not even a lifetime.

As to how the saints managed to pray and contemplate our Lord without guitars and keyboards–may I ask you a question, please? How was St. Maximilian Kolbe able to pray in the midst of the screams of the tortured and dying at Auschwitz?

Prayer and contemplation does NOT depend on the background music and noise, **neither is it upset or disarrayed by background music and noise. ** Prayer and contemplation happen in the stillness of the soul, and the soul can be still when surrounded by the noise of various kinds of music and chatter, or even when emcompassed all around by the terrors of a concentration camp.

I’m hardly claiming to know more, I am stating facts generic to almost any Parish which has a Sunday evening Mass, and actually facts which you can’t dispute on it.

Indeed not, which is why I was suggesting you should be careful about introducing this facet. Its quite possible to hammer you into the ground by bringing up all the Saints who have spoken about the TLM and who have praised it, who in their writings have spoke about its effects and who have used Gregorian Chant to draw closer to God.

Your point appears flawed here, You have previously mentioned how these teenagers will ‘rebel’ without ‘their music’ being allowed and validated. If you are accepting that “prayer and contemplation does NOT depend on the background music and noise” then you accept there is no need for having music during the Mass to suit their age group.

 

[MrS]

I
BTW, to anyone interested, we do have several parishes in our diocese that are doing that “hybrid” Mass thing (whatever you call it)–the OF, but with Latin propers and chants and kneeling to receive Holy Communion and receiving Holy Communion on the tongue and all boys or men serving as altar servers and lectors.

So there are a lot of opportunities for Catholics in our diocese who are looking for more traditional Masses. And there is the Life Teen Mass for those of us who prefer something more contemporary. Like I said, we are incredibly blessed.

It’s very peaceful here. I wish the same for all of the rest of you who struggle week after week to attend Masses that you find irreverent or inane or boring.

:bigyikes: hybrid Mass thing???

Wow, we need to have a talk.

do you even realize that the OF… the Novus Ordo… the form of the Mass that followed what is called the TLM, or EF…

is SUPPOSED to have all those things.

VATII never intended nor permitted all the “norms” we have today so common in the innovative forms given to us by laity and clergy who have little or no clue.

Sadly I think you are like many, many Catholics… having no idea of what the OF was meant to be,… and thus no idea of what the “traditionalists” seem to be so upset.

They are upset because the things you mentioned have been removed and replaced with abuses-turned-“norms”.

No wonder the teens - and some “adults” here - think they prefer the modern… they have nothing true to compare it to.

God help us.

 

[MrS]

You may be interested to know I had a quick look through a few of Bishop Doran’s columns, and I’m sure you will want to follow what he has said. For example in his column on Aug 31st 2007 he writes “The music was very appropriate and particular Latin hymns dear to the hearts of all of us were sung” later he states "One of the losses that has taken place in the liturgical renewal is the practical extinction of our traditional Catholic Latin hymns. Choirs can no longer sing them and hymnals no longer feature them with the Latin and English text side by side. It may seem a small point but it is one that grates on all of us who are as young as I am. " and then “However, the hymnals and the music that I grew up with were drawn from Catholic sources. Much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion and some of it is, if you will excuse the term, dreck. I have commented elsewhere about our propensity to omit singing the second half of the Ave Maria which for us, the living and for those who are dying, is all important.”. “Dreck”, what an apt word that is.

This bears repeating.

 

[Cat]

Indeed, but don’t you think that if they are as well catechised as you say they are hardly likely to ‘rebel’, as you put it, if a Priest decides its time to go back to Gregorian Chant and other music more in tune with that which the Pope’s writings and Church Documents lead us towards? Not least if the Priest were to explain to them why Pope Benedict, Pope John Paul II and others have taken this view.

You already mentioned, in the same post I think, that teenagers will follow people they love and trust. As I pointed out they have already shown that willingness to follow the Pope and his view seems pretty clear when you look back on the quotes provided, all it takes is a Priest or Bishop to stand up to these ‘youth ministers’ and say this is what the Church says, this is why they say it and this is how we’re going to do it.

I wouldn’t feel too bad about it. After all I haven’t managed to either. Although coincidentally my search did lead me to a blog which was praising Bishop Doran on one of his letters and also contained a link to here, which rather flies in the face of your argument that young people would suddenly rebel at the lose of ‘their music’. In fact the top results from my searches all seem to come to comments you have made about Bishop Doran’s support for it.

I’m trying to avoid making assumptions. But I’m afraid it isn’t appropriate for you to found your argument on the ‘support’ of a Bishop for a programme when there is apparently no evidence for it.

Well that is the system that it used, its the system the Bishop has authority over. If you look at one part of a Diocese you could get radically different views from looking at the whole Diocese.

So it would be rather difficult for teenagers to get to the TLM even if they wanted to. As a result very few of them will ever have attended a TLM, similarly relatively few may have heard Gregorian Chant or polyphony in its proper context.

Well I’m not going to, but it is something which we should bear in mind when we talk about how much teenagers apparently like going to Teen Masses. The fact is they are at a convenient time for most of them, a lot of their friend’s will be there, its at the local Church. I’d argue that for most of them those are of greater concern than what songs their youth ‘leaders’ might choose.

Yes, he seems very able and puts forward the Church’s teachings well.

A radio programme is not a Mass, however.

Yes, and that is just as it should be. But he seems to be making the point in the quote that we have lost a lot of the Catholic music which belongs in the Church, he even talks about the hymnals and the problems with them. How “much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion”, he obviously sees that as something worth bringing to attention and, at least from my reading, there is a stark contrast between the “very appropriate” music, including some hymns in Latin, and what he classifies as not being “from the Catholic tradition”.

I hope you enjoy it and all goes well.

snha, are you not from the United States? I don’t see the information in your Profile. I don’t generally see “programme” spelled like this in the U.S.

Here is the reason I am asking. If you are not from the U.S., you really don’t know how things are here, how people live, and how the Catholic Church is different here than in other countries in the world.

I have friends who have come to live in the U.S. (students) while studying, and they are always quite surprised to find out how different the U.S. is than what they expected.

 

[Sarabande]

You may be interested to know I had a quick look through a few of Bishop Doran’s columns, and I’m sure you will want to follow what he has said. For example in his column on Aug 31st 2007 he writes “The music was very appropriate and particular Latin hymns dear to the hearts of all of us were sung” later he states "One of the losses that has taken place in the liturgical renewal is the practical extinction of our traditional Catholic Latin hymns. Choirs can no longer sing them and hymnals no longer feature them with the Latin and English text side by side. It may seem a small point but it is one that grates on all of us who are as young as I am. " and then “However, the hymnals and the music that I grew up with were drawn from Catholic sources. Much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion and some of it is, if you will excuse the term, dreck. I have commented elsewhere about our propensity to omit singing the second half of the Ave Maria which for us, the living and for those who are dying, is all important.”. “Dreck”, what an apt word that is.

snhs - Did this bishop comment on how he’d like to see this loss to be remedied within his diocese? I do know that remedies take some time, but I was curious to see how he was hoping to do this, if was planning on it. I know when our archbishop came, he took his time making the changes. He has been here about 5 years and I’m starting to notice them now. One thing I did notice the first year he was here, the youth/young adult group (which was actually a group of aging 40+ year-olds) at the cathedral who did one Sunday evening mass a month in the chapel was disbanded. He did one mass with them and the next thing you knew, they were gone. Truth be told, no one really missed them. It really wasn’t an appropriate group for the Cathedral and the parish along with the college students that attended. Those who preferred that stayed on campus at the Newman Centers. (Not knocking Newman Centers as I was also involved in the music ministry there at the time, although I eventually left it all to be solely involved with the music ministry at the Cathedral.)

Then the Director of Worship was changed and the liturgies for the archdiocesan masses became so much better. It set an example for other parishes. Our music director was taken aback when very positive feedback came from the priests of the diocese, commending the music choices for liturgy and how prayerfully and reverently they were. (This was music we did for our regular masses with choir at the cathedral, but before were hardly ever permitted at the archdiocesan masses.)

Anyway, I would be interested in learning more on which this bishop discussed in his columns. He sounds like he is a good bishop from what Cat describes. I can’t base anything from one quote, but it seems as if he might be doing a very good balancing act in achieving what he would like to see, for the well-being of his entire diocese.

 

[benedictgal]

Just a clarification on the hybrid Mass: where on earth do people get this idea? The default language of the Mass is Latin. The vernacular is certainly allowed, especially where the readings, the homily and certain parts are concerned. And while, yes, we have translations of the Roman Missal in the many languages, the starting point is Latin. In fact, on Tuesday, an auxiliary bishop from Kazahkstan celebrated Mass on EWTN. He celebrated Mass in Latin. Of course, he read the Gospel and preached in English, but, the rest was in Latin. When Cardinal Bertone celebrated Mass for the Knights of Columbus National Convention, he used Latin.

To call something a hybrid Mass because Latin will be used for some of the parts is to completely miss the boat on the nature of language in the Holy Sacrifice.

Now, as far as music is concerned, Pope Benedict talked about this issue back in the 1980s and it is something that he continues to discuss. Here is what he said in the early 1980s:

A certain administration of power, we are told, feels threatened by processes of cultural transformation and reacts by masking its striving for self-preservation as love for the tradition. Gregorian chant and Palestrina are tutelary gods of a mythicized, ancient repertoire,7 elements of a Catholic counterculture that is based on remythicized and supersacralized archetypes,8 just as in the historical liturgy of the Church it has been more a question of a cultic bureaucracy than of the singing activity of the people.9

The content of Pius X’s motu proprio on sacred music [Tra le sollecitudini] is finally designated as a “culturally shortsighted and theologically empty ideology of sacred music”.10 Here, of course, it is not only sociologism that is at work but a total separation of the New Testament from the history of the Church, and this in turn is linked with a theory of decline, such as is characteristic for many Enlightenment situations: purity lies only in the original beginnings with Jesus. The entire further history appears as a “musical adventure with disoriented and abortive experiences” which one “must now bring to an end” in order finally to begin again with what is right.11

But what does the new and better look like? The leading concepts have already been indicated in previous allusions. We must now pay attention to their closer concretization. Two basic values are clearly formulated. The “primary value” of a renewed liturgy, we are told, is “the full and authentic action of all persons”.12 Accordingly, Church music means first and foremost that the “people of God” represents its identity in song. The second value decision operative here is likewise already addressed: music shows itself as the power that effects the coherence of the group. The familiar songs are, as it were, the identifying marks of a community.13 From this perspective, the main categories of the musical formation of the liturgy arise: the project, the program, the animation, the direction. The how, we are told, is more important than the what.14 The ability to celebrate is above all the “ability to do”. Music must above all be “done”.15

His observations accurately portray the opinions of those who stress that teenagers need their own music because Gregorian Chant is creepy, elitist and is long in the tooth, so to speak.

Some of the folks who support this kind of culture of the banal (again, the Holy Father’s own description of this particular genre) seem to be the ones who were leftover from the Age of Aquarius and are still trying to capture the full blown and mistakenly applied spirit of the Second Vatican Council. When the authoritative documents of the Holy See are pointed out, they pooh pooh them and say that they don’t list any standards at all for music.

Then, when Pope John Paul II writes his Chirograph on Sacred Music, this same group downplays what he says and relegates his words to mere opinion.

Interestingly enough, this camp can’t seem to quote anything from the Holy See to support their claims, so they resort to insults, personal attacks and oddly mish-mashed quotes from Scripture that aren’t even germaine to their arguments.

Regardless of where SNHS is from, his opinion, because he is a teenager, is certainly quite valid. After all, isn’t he part of the target audience that these Youth Masses wants to reach? His comments have proven that kids want more than the Bread and Circuses that this type of music provides. They want to experience a true Sensus Fideum and have a strong Senus Ecclesia. They aren’t getting it from sappy, happy, syruppy songs. You want that, go to a Hannah Montana or Maroon 5 concert. If you want the real deal, then, study what the Church says on sacred music and let the chants and truly sacred music be the arrow that pierces your soul.

 

[Cat]

Forgive me, MrS and benedictgal, for not knowing the proper name for “hybrid Mass.”

I am a convert. I was raised in the evangelical Protestant church. I became a Catholic four years ago. Although our RCIA classes ran from 6:30-9:30 P.M. every Monday night from the first week of Sept. until Easter Vigil (April 10, 2004), the priests and teachers apparently decided to skip this. I can tell you all about the hypostatic union and the apologetics for the Marian Doctrines, and yes, I know what Gaudate Sunday is, but somehow, they missed this.

Amazingly, somehow, the Lord managed to used the banal dreck of the OF Mass to help me to become a Catholic. Jesus did say that with God, nothing is impossible.

And once again, what I see happening here, MrS and benedictgal, is an undermining of the authority of my bishop and priests. You say that the Holy Mass OF is supposed to have been “hybrid” all along. So what I hear you saying is that my bishop and priests are liberal and that I shouldn’t trust them.

No offence, but I choose to trust the apostles, the ordained servants of Jesus, rather than people on an online board who have a boatload of cut-and-paste quotes from the last 2000 years.

I have the feeling that if the right people came along, they could refute your cut-and-pastes with cut-and-pastes of their own that say just the opposite of what yours say. I saw it over and over again in the Protestant church.

My bishop and priests have teaching authority. The people on this forum do not have teaching authority, no matter how much they know about rubrics, music, and history.

I’ll go with the authority, please.

 

[Cat]

snhs - Did this bishop comment on how he’d like to see this loss to be remedied within his diocese? I do know that remedies take some time, but I was curious to see how he was hoping to do this, if was planning on it. I know when our archbishop came, he took his time making the changes. He has been here about 5 years and I’m starting to notice them now. One thing I did notice the first year he was here, the youth/young adult group (which was actually a group of aging 40+ year-olds) at the cathedral who did one Sunday evening mass a month in the chapel was disbanded. He did one mass with them and the next thing you knew, they were gone. Truth be told, no one really missed them. It really wasn’t an appropriate group for the Cathedral and the parish along with the college students that attended. Those who preferred that stayed on campus at the Newman Centers. (Not knocking Newman Centers as I was also involved in the music ministry there at the time, although I eventually left it all to be solely involved with the music ministry at the Cathedral.)

Then the Director of Worship was changed and the liturgies for the archdiocesan masses became so much better. It set an example for other parishes. Our music director was taken aback when very positive feedback came from the priests of the diocese, commending the music choices for liturgy and how prayerfully and reverently they were. (This was music we did for our regular masses with choir at the cathedral, but before were hardly ever permitted at the archdiocesan masses.)

Anyway, I would be interested in learning more on which this bishop discussed in his columns. He sounds like he is a good bishop from what Cat describes. I can’t base anything from one quote, but it seems as if he might be doing a very good balancing act in achieving what he would like to see, for the well-being of his entire diocese.

Sarabande, I don’t think he has a plan for reforming the music liturgy in the diocese. I can’t say that for certain, since I’m not involved with any diosescan committees or anything. But since I play, I’m friends with a lot of the music ministers and liturgical directors of various parishes in my city, and I would think that they would share the gist of any “grand plan” with me.

I think Bishop Doran concentrates more on evangelization and catechesis. He has been hugely supportive of the Why Catholic? program to educate Catholics about the Catechism. And our Adult Ministry Formation program is fantastic.

I think he sees the Life Teen program as a good tool for Catholic churches to use to counter some of the megachurch youth outreaches in our city.

There is one church in our city that has a youth outreach called “Cross Current.” Thousands of teenagers atttend the weekly meetings. I’m not exaggerating.

There is a megachurch that attracts even more teenagers to their youth group. And there is an older megachurch that holds their own huge youth meeting once a week, attracting hundreds.

With this kind of competition, the Catholic Church has to rise to the challenge and offer their youth something that will keep them from straying. Our young teenaged friend and others on this forum can make grandiose statements that teenagers will be attracted to traditional Mass and music, but it doesn’t seem to work that way in real life. I think Bishop Doran would rather see Life Teen than see all the Catholic teens headed off to Cross Current.

Our diocese is celebrating its centennial this year, and I know that Bishop Doran is very involved in this. It’s quite exciting.

I know that we have a person working for the diocese who is in charge of Liturgy. I don’t know what her title is. I’ve accompanied her and she is very sharp. Extremely committed to the contemporary Christian music in the Mass that this thread has been condemning. I have not heard her talk about developing chant, Latin, etc.

Considering that she works right alongside of Bishop Doran, I think that we need to put his comments in that one article that snhs quoted in context. If Bishop Doran truly despised all contemporary Christian music and considered it “dreck,” would he have this person working for him? Would he place her in charge of liturgy for his diocese?

I think that what we are seeing is the limitations of one man. He can only do so much. I think he’s leaving “reform of the liturgy” to the next bishop. Long life to Bishop Doran! God bless him and keep him.

 

[benedictgal]

It’s funny. People say that they will trust the apostles, but, when Peter has written something, whether it is in the form of a Chirograph, an Apostolic Exhortation or a book, it gets dismissed as an opinon.

Oddly enough, the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist were the successors to the Apostles. They stated that the music used at Youth Masses was problematic. Peter responded by saying that as far as the liturgy is concerned, one song is not as good as another. He went on to note the importance of Gregorian Chant.

Protestants do not have the same form of worship as the Church. They do not have the sacrificial element. Their form of worship is similar to the synagouge while the Church’s form is akin to what Ancient Israel practiced in the Temple. Protestants have a service of the word which involves singing, reading a scriptural passage, a lengthy sermon and then more singing. For Protestants, the music is more about pepping up the congregation, loudly and proudly. There is not much solemnity there. Just watch a televangelist broadcast.

The Church, rooted in Ancient Israel’s practice, has both the Word and the Sacrifice. You cannot separate the two. Jesus is the Word made Flesh. It is this Word that is our Sacrifice and our Food, an important tenent of the faith that is lost in the music for these Youth Masses. Little to no reference is made to the Sacrificial aspect of the Mass. It’s all about feeling good and what we are doing. It’s about the Meal and community. That’s the big problem.

If the successors to the Apostles who were at the Synod weren’t so concerned about music in Youth Masses, why would they consider this a shadow? This is something that the proponents of the cult of the banal have yet to answer. The cult of the banal is not my term; this comes directly from Pope Benedict, himself, when he described the kind of pop that is supposed to pass for music at Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

A good deal of the music used at Youth Masses comes from the Contemporary Protestant Praise and Worship genre. Songs like “Shine, Jesus, Shine”, “Lord, I Lift Your Name on High”, “I Could Sing of Your Love Forever” permeate through these Masses.

Pope Benedict addressed this issue when he was Cardinal Ratzinger. Even though these remarks are a few years old, they still very much apply to the situation. Incidentally, he may not have been Peter at the time he said this, but, he was a Cardinal and a successor to the Apostles:

Let us think first of all, for example, of the Dionysian type of religion and music with which Plato grappled from the standpoint of his religious and philosophical view.22 In not a few forms of religion, music is ordered to intoxication and ecstasy. The freedom from the limitations of being human towards which the hunger for the infinite proper to man is directed is to be attained through holy madness, through the frenzy of the rhythm and of the instruments. Such music lowers the barriers of individuality and of personality. Man frees himself in it from the burden of consciousness. Music becomes ecstasy, liberation from the ego, and unification with the universe.

We experience the profane return of this type today in rock and pop music, the festivals of which are an anti-culture of the same orientation — the pleasure of destruction, the abolition of everyday barriers, and the illusion of liberation from the ego in the wild ecstasy of noise and masses. It is a question of redemptive practices whose form of redemption is related to drugs and thoroughly opposed to the Christian faith in redemption. The conflict that Plato argued out between Dionysian and Apollonian music is not ours, for Apollo is not Christ. But the question he posed concerns us in a most important way.

***Music has become today the decisive vehicle of a counter-religion and thus the scene of the discernment of spirits in a form that we could not have suspected a generation ago. ***Because rock music seeks redemption by way of liberation from the personality and its responsibility, it takes, in one respect, a very precise position in the anarchical ideas of freedom which predominate today in a more unconcealed way in the West than in the East. But precisely for that reason, it is thoroughly opposed to the Christian notion of redemption and of freedom as its exact contradiction. Not for aesthetic reasons, not from reactionary obstinacy, not from historical immobility, but because of its very nature music of this type must be excluded from the Church.

His statement is an honest assessment of why this kind of music has no place for “youth Masses”, let alone the Holy Sacrifice, in general.

Here is the prescription he offered:

The Church has set up two further road markers. In its inner character, liturgical music must correspond to the demands of the great liturgical texts — the Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei. That does not mean, as I have already said, that it may be only text music. But it finds in the inner direction of these texts a pointer for its own message.

The second road marker is the reference to Gregorian chant and to Palestrina. Again, this reference does not mean that all Church music must be an imitation of this music. On this point, there were in fact many constrictions in the renewal of Church music in the last century and also in the papal documents based on it. Correctly understood, this simply says that norms are given here that provide an orientation. But what may arise through the creative appropriation of such an orientation is not to be established in advance.

He has already started by cleaning up the music at the Vatican. Archbishop Burke took that ball and ran with it here. I hope that his successor will carry on that task. The young members of the Church, like SHNS, will surely be grateful.

 

[snhs]

I agree with you that our teens would indeed be docile and submit to the Pope and our Bishop should they ban the Life Teen songs and institute a “Latin and chant” only for musical settings for Mass.

But they have not done that. And I don’t think they will.

What I was referring to is laypeople who don’t even work with teenagers but who believe that they can dictate to the teenagers what kind of music they should have in Mass.

You appear to be missing the point here. When Pope Benedict spoke to them during the WYD celebrations he didn’t ban them from buying souvenirs, nor at any point in his Homily did he ban them from paying full price for a banana . They followed the what he was saying and applied that to their behaviour which is just what they should be doing as members of the Church.

Now if Pope Benedict stood up, or a Bishop or Priest stood up and read out some of the extracts which have been presented from his books or from the Church Documents which concern Sacred Music are you seriously trying to tell us they would come away with the impression that their music must be validated by the Church authorities lest they ‘rebel’?

Do you have any specific lay people in mind when you make that comment? I know I really dislike it when I go to ‘youth’ Masses, have to sit through the kind of “dreck” Bishop Doran mentioned and where its quite obvious whoever is behind it doesn’t have much of a clue what the Church has to say on what music is appropriate. Or do they not count because they ‘work with’ teenagers?

snha, are you not from the United States? I don’t see the information in your Profile. I don’t generally see “programme” spelled like this in the U.S.

Here is the reason I am asking. If you are not from the U.S., you really don’t know how things are here, how people live, and how the Catholic Church is different here than in other countries in the world.

I have friends who have come to live in the U.S. (students) while studying, and they are always quite surprised to find out how different the U.S. is than what they expected.

U.K., Scotland specifically.

I can see how this may confuse you coming from a Protestant background but the Catholic Church is universal. So when the Pope says something regarding the appropriate music for a Latin Rite Mass in Rome it tends to apply not just there but in France, Britain and indeed America.

We are discussing what music is appropriate for Mass, the Church has set the guidelines for that and it is those guidelines which should be followed wherever the Catholic Church is.

Have you bothered looking at the hyperlinks I provided for you? One regards a U.S. University, indeed the same U.S. University you told us the teenagers in your Parish often go to, where U.S. students are in fact working to get access to the TLM on campus, indeed petitioning for that right and setting up groups in support of it. The other links to an abbreviated version of a survey in the U.S. of several hundred teenagers from across the country. Perhaps your browser has problems opening such links so I’ll summarise some of the more salient points:

"Across this diverse group of students there was clear agreement about the kind of music that was “right for church”: it was

• choral music, not instrumental
• sung by a group of singers rather than a soloist
• characterized by a simple musical texture and understandable text."

“Musical examples reminiscent of popular styles (rock, jazz, country) were overwhelmingly rejected as church music. The example rated most appropriate was a male choir singing a four-part version of Psalm 98 (The Lutheran Hymnal 667!). The piece considered least appropriate was the loud and rhythmic “Midnight Oil,” performed by the Christian rock group Petra.”

“For example, some settings of traditional choral music were considered appropriate by nearly everyone.”

Here’s one particularly relevant, as it actually tells us about how the Catholic Teens responded “The traditional choral sound was given its highest ratings by the Catholic and Lutheran students in the study.”

“Contrary to expectations, these representative teenagers do not bring to the church service their own musical preferences (e.g., rock and pop music) as the right music for that occasion.”

“While they liked rock music and thought it was the right music for some times and places in their lives, they didn’t believe that the church service was that time and place.”

“Interestingly, the unchurched students gave their lowest ranking of appropriateness to contemporary Christian music. Several wrote on their survey forms “This sounds like my parents’ music!””

You can get the full results from the link within the full article.

It seems that the differences in opinion which may or may not be encountered by traversing the Atlantic are not as great as you are making out while the divide between your view and that of representative young people across America remains somewhat more substantial. You may also wish to note the title of this thread “Teenagers and Church Music”, not “American Teenagers and Church Music”.