Teenagers and Church Music

[PrayforMallory]

I know it is not the popular point of view on this forum but I find traditional hymns painful to listen to at mass. They all have the same beat and many have the same melody… just the lyrics change! If I let that fact get to me at mass, I often feel like I am living the movie “Groundhog Day.”

I find Gregorian Chant wonderful for the proper parts of the mass but dislike them being used for: Entrance, Presentation, Communion, Closing or Psalm response, I know technically the psalm is included in the Propers. However, the psalms contain a wide spectrum of moods depending on the lyrics. Gregorian Chant, although it can sound peaceful and beautiful if sung well, it can not evoke the great joy or extreme lament that the psalms offer…however contemporary music can). I realize the GIRM thinks the organ and chant should take pride of place but I really think this is motivated by the authors personal likes because it holds absolutely no validity from a musical standpoint. Saying that one style of music is more holy/reverant than another, lyrics aside, is like saying God loves the Redsox but frowns upon the Celtics.

No it isn’t. It isn’t at all. Gregorian Chant was originally devised by a Saint.

Axl Rose is not a Saint.

Be wary of this kind of relativism.

 

[PrayforMallory]

I take exception to the fact that there are “useless” teachers in youth groups.

Our seminary is over capacity, because of those “useless” teachers as you put it.

I’ve said this many times before, it is because of contemporary music at Mass that I am able to go to any mass and pray, including one with no music. It is because of contemporary music at adoration that I am able to go to our silent adoration in the chapel and enter into prayer.

You need to better familiarize yourself with the traditional music, if you are having problems relating to it.

Trust me, it just takes time.

 

[PrayforMallory]

It’s all personal preference! There is no such thing as innately “holy” music. Case in Point: at work (microbiology lab), we sing a ditty set to the tune of Handel’s Hallelujah Chorus, surely some of the best music ever written–but we substitute the word “Gonorrhea” for “Hallelujah.” Bang–there goes the “sacredness” of the melody!

Also, how many Protestant mega-Church celebrations have you attended? There is a huge difference between the music at Life Teen Masses, and the music at a Protestant megachurch.

Finally, Life Teen Masses and the music settings and hymns done at these Masses have the approval of the local Bishops. Those who say that the music is somehow lacking at LifeTeen are implying that the Bishop is missing something. I frankly don’t have the gall to make such a claim against an apostle of the Lord Jesus.

Plenty of Bishops are Phillistines when it comes to music.

I’ve been to these Mega-Church events. The music is awful. And yes there is an objectively better form of more sacred music, i.e. the music written by the ancient saints, who were concerned with divine things, instead of secular or protestant culture. I don’t want to listen to Shakira at Mass. That is for Protestants.

Furthermore, no one is singing “Gonorrhea” at Mass.

Chant, the Organ, etc, are necessary for the Latin Rite. They are necessary because they cannot change. Their purpose is to edify a timeless God. If people cannot relate to traditional music, there’s only one decent answer. They need to become more familiar with it. They need to adapt themselves to it, versus the other way around.

These kids need to learn that for the same reasons they need to learn algebra. Christianity demands human beings raise themselves to it, not lower it to themselves.

 

[Jimsdun]

I’m 27, a seminarian, and I love chant and polyphony. I have been to orhcestral masses and love them. Organ and chant should have pride of place. The are the norm.

That being said, some realy need to recognice that LifeTeen is a Vatican approved movemnt of the Church, and that the contemporary music has been approved for liturgical use for the masses of said movment. Addidtionaly, verbs used to describe the function of a vaccum cleaner have no place in a Catholic Fourm, particularly in reference to a movent in the Church that has led many peple to Christ, and from which a high number of vocations has come.

Life Teen has flagrant violations of the GIRM and shouldn’t be approved by the Vatican. If Pope Benedict was aware of the amount of liturgical abuse, life teen would be shut down yesterday.

charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/life-teen.html

 

[johnnydigit]

I realize the GIRM thinks the organ and chant should take pride of place but I really think this is motivated by the authors personal likes because it holds absolutely no validity from a musical standpoint. Saying that one style of music is more holy/reverant than another, lyrics aside, is like saying God loves the Redsox but frowns upon the Celtics.

it’s not just an author, or a document, but Holy Mother Church. i understand your views from a musical standpoint, but this is not secular music, nor worship music from any other religion, thus it does not need to live up to any of the standards of “cutting edge” or whatever musical requirements that are acceptable in this age. this is music for the Holy Mass. my assumption is that a deeper understanding of the Mass is required before understanding the relevance of Sacred music. i’m no expert, but i think the key point, at least for me, is in the presence of heaven. if it was any other type of event, replace whatever music until your heart is content, but for the Mass, heaven is literally present. a profound and existential event occurs, and it goes beyond our worldly understanding.

my understanding is that Sacred music is best mated with this miracle of heaven, and not whatever is contemporary at the moment in time (folk, classical, opera, rock, praise, etc. depending on the decade or century), but eternal. for me, Christ literally is present, as are the communion of the Saints, as is each element of the Mass from Salvation history (the story of all of Mankind) in the Old and New Testament. all of Scripture comes alive. Sacred music is a part of these, at all times, forever, and not just contemporary.

this testimony of mine comes from loving both types of music. if you dislike one, my assumption is that you just don’t understand it, whether it is from a lack of experience or instruction.

given that most Catholics are pretty much clueless about our faith or were never properly instructed in our faith past a “kindergarten” level… it’s no wonder they don’t understand many of the things the Church teaches. as the saying goes, “doctor knows best”, so should we try to have faith that “the Church knows best”.

perhaps some of these readings can help if you want to go a little deeper and see what our Holy Fathers, our Popes, have on their minds for us. think not about why you don’t like it, but why the Church likes it..

Pope St Pius X - On Sacred Music
http://www.unavoce.org/intersollicitudines.htm

Pope Pius XII - On Sacred Music
unavoce.org/DeMusicaSacra-1958.html

Frequently Asked Questions on Sacred Music
musicasacra.com/pdf/smfaq.pdf

Liturgy and Church Music by Cardinal Ratzinger
musicasacra.com/publications/sacredmusic/pdf/liturgy&music.pdf

LINKS about Sacred music
catholic-pages.com/dir/music.asp
musicasacra.com/sacred-music

 

[johnnydigit]

Take if from the standpoint of a professional musician. We don’t take “Christian” musicians (meaning Pop Christians) seriously. They are the laughing-stock of the music world, for a number of reasons. One is that their lyrics lack insight and mystery, another is that the musical styles employed in this genre often lack a basic appreciation of melody. You don’t have talent? You can’t write a decent song? Go be a “Christian” rocker. That’s pretty much the dynamic of that genre. If you want proof, ask yourself this question. When have contemporary Christian artists actually done something uniquely “Christian” musically? They don’t. They take contemporary secular styles and insert trite, often heretical lyrics about Our Lord into them. This isn’t true of the traditional music. Nobody can say the same thing about Palestrina or Mozart.

as a professional, your view here doesn’t seem professional, nor charitable at all.

many have much insight and mystery. many have profound lyrics, and words that touch my soul and give glory to God.

they have great melodies. is a melody different for you than everyone else?

as i said earlier, a Christian song doesn’t need to be “cutting edge”. what does it even mean to do something “uniquely Christian”? they are unique in that they inspire love for Jesus and God, which if you don’t have it, they offer little to no interest.

for it to be contemporary music, it would probably need to sound contemporary, don’t you think? in the 70’s there was Christian music that sounded like the 70’s. in the 80’s, music like the 80’s, 90’s, and today, etc. what they have in common - love of God. the rest is secondary.

often heretical? very few Christian songs have heretical lyrics. please prove your claim by showing me some heretical lyrics from some contemporary music in another thread. in fact, i challenge you to because your responses will most likely be very vague and dubious. feel free to not only include Catholic songs, but Christian songs too.

now you’re comparing opera and classical music? even those were considered contemporary at the time. people swooned at opera voices and “felt” it suited the Mass because it was so “class”. Sacred music is not classical either, sorry.

I firmly believe a distinctly Catholic culture has to be implanted in these kids. The contemporary mess compromises with an anti-Catholic culture and gives them a false impression that the Church can change at its core, when it clearly cannot.

The Church has its own cultural tradition. It does not need to borrow from an inferior tradition to be relevant.

yes, they need implantation and proper instruction without compromises. however, they can still appreciate contemporary music while appreciating Sacred music, while understanding that the cannot change at its core. the Church should keep its cultural tradition, within the Mass. music outside will remain contemporary, inasmuch as changing with the culture. this is inevitable. we can however, put this secular music in the context of Christ. this is Contemporary Christian Music.

 

[japhy]

I find Gregorian Chant wonderful for the proper parts of the mass but dislike them being used for: Entrance, Presentation, Communion, Closing or Psalm response, I know technically the psalm is included in the Propers.

Heh, the Entrance, Offertory (“Presentation”), and Communion are also part of the propers, but I don’t think 1 in 10,000 Catholics has heard the Propers during those times since 1970. The songbook of the Church is the Graduale Romanum, and it contains the chants to be sung at those times, as well as the Ordinary of the Mass. (Perhaps you’re confused about the terms?)

You know why the Third Sunday of Advent is called Gaudete Sunday? Or why the Fourth Sunday of Lent is called Laetare Sunday? Because those are the first words of the entrance antiphons (the introit) of those days. The first word the choir would sing (and most likely that the people would hear, since the prayers at the foot of the altar are barely audible) would be Gaudete or Laetere.

Not anymore. Not that there’s no longer a Graduale, it’s just that so many Bishops’ conferences never encourage its use and are fine going with the last option available, a hymn from an approved hymnbook.

However, the psalms contain a wide spectrum of moods depending on the lyrics. Gregorian Chant, although it can sound peaceful and beautiful if sung well, it can not evoke the great joy or extreme lament that the psalms offer (however contemporary music can).

On the contrary, it can, and there are certain “modes” of chant that tend, by their very notes (and the particular arrangement thereof) to express particular emotions. For instance, if you were to hear Parce, Domine, I think you could guess whether it is a joyful song or a lamenting song.

I realize the GIRM thinks the organ and chant should take pride of place but I really think this is motivated by the authors personal likes because it holds absolutely no validity from a musical standpoint. Saying that one style of music is more holy/reverant than another, lyrics aside, is like saying God loves the Redsox but frowns upon the Celtics.

Your issue is with the Church at large, not with just the GIRM. There has always been a determination of what styles of music are sacred and which are profane, and the profane has no place in the domus Dei. The more a style of music conforms to the qualities of Gregorian chant (which is the music PROPER to the Roman Rite), the more sacred it is (and vice versa).

 

[PrayforMallory]

as a professional, your view here doesn’t seem professional, nor charitable at all.

I’m sorry, but when it comes to defending the masters and our traditional Catholic musical culture I will meet all comers.

many have much insight and mystery. many have profound lyrics, and words that touch my soul and give glory to God.

they have great melodies. is a melody different for you than everyone else?

Yes. The melodies are as drab and bland as the contemporary pop this stuff is based on. The basics of construction of melody aren’t followed. You want proof? How many times is there a key change in any of these “works,” that isn’t the standard climactic, last chorus key change? How many times do these works employ pentatonic, modal, or unanticipated phrases? They are always, absolutely diatonic unless the writer chooses to employ the blue note, which is itself a symbol of rebellion and human will (not to mention an overdone Protestant spin of “soul”).

as i said earlier, a Christian song doesn’t need to be “cutting edge”. what does it even mean to do something “uniquely Christian”? they are unique in that they inspire love for Jesus and God, which if you don’t have it, they offer little to no interest.

No they aren’t. The musical framework, the chords, the scales employed, the melodies, and even the particular narrative structure of the lyrics is directly borrowed from secular forms. The traditional Sacred Music does not do this.

for it to be contemporary music, it would probably need to sound contemporary, don’t you think? in the 70’s there was Christian music that sounded like the 70’s. in the 80’s, music like the 80’s, 90’s, and today, etc. what they have in common - love of God. the rest is secondary.

Do they? Is that why the female contemporary “Christian” artists dress like supermodels and star in music videos in which images of themselves are exclusively utilized? Do they reflect Christian values of poverty in their lifestyles? To the contrary, they reflect the pop music culture of the contemporary era. What about the specific styles? Do they legitimize the fallen culture, or do they admonish it? You can answer that for yourself.

often heretical? very few Christian songs have heretical lyrics. please prove your claim by showing me some heretical lyrics from some contemporary music in another thread. in fact, i challenge you to because your responses will most likely be very vague and dubious. feel free to not only include Catholic songs, but Christian songs too.

Your separation of “Catholic,” and “Christian” is disturbing, because only Catholics have the fullness of Christianity. It was probably a slip of the tongue, so it doesn’t deserve any further discussion. First of all, every single one that contains a reference to the rapture or to Protestant perspective of “end-times” theology. Also, every so-called “Christian Hardcore” band that sings routinely about dismemberment, cannibalism, murder, and other Satanic topics.
As for specific examples, how about Reliant K’s “Failure to Excommunicate?”

Jesus loved the outcast
He loves the ones the world just loves to hate
And as long as there’s a heaven, there’ll be a failure to excommunicate

There are plenty more. And also, in the cases where there isn’t explicitly heretical content, there’s also a paucity of Catholic theology, something integral to music. Furthermore, a good number of these lyrics emphasize the sin of presumption. But for now, how about the disrespectful language used to describe St. John the Baptist in DC Talk’s “Jesus Freak?”

There was a man from the desert with naps in his head
The sand that he walked was also his bed
The words that he spoke made the people assume
There wasn’t too much left in the upper room
With scabs on his back and hair on his face
They thought he was strange by the locusts he ate
YOU SEE The Pharisees tripped when they heard him speak
Until the king took the head of this Jesus freak

In that tired song, “Our God is an Awesome God,” notice the complete lack of reverence and awe for God:

When He rolls up His sleeves
He ain’t just puttin’ on the ritz
(our God is an awesome God)
There is thunder in His footsteps
And lightning in His fist

.
now you’re comparing opera and classical music? even those were considered contemporary at the time. people swooned at opera voices and “felt” it suited the Mass because it was so “class”. Sacred music is not classical either, sorry.

I can’t understand what you are saying in this paragraph. Does Opera fall in the genre of “Classical?” It does in most classification systems.

Opera was never, ever, ever used for sacred music. Sacred choral works and Opera are totally different. Opera is a specifically secular form, reaching fruition in the Romantic era, to edify Romantic era sentiments. Sacred Choral music has few similarities to Opera. It’s forms predate Opera by centuries. So “class?” Is that why the early Church began implementing chant? Is that why the Jews chanted before then? I doubt it. Notions of “class” didn’t exist before class-consciousness developed in the Modern West. A notion of “class” has little to do with the need for the traditional liturgical music.

“Sacred Music is not Classical?” What do you mean by this? This is a very confusing statement. If you mean not Classical in the sense of not being confined to the 18th Century, this would be true. If you meant that it is not Classical in the sense of “High Art,” you’d be wrong.

.yes, they need implantation and proper instruction without compromises. however, they can still appreciate contemporary music while appreciating Sacred music, while understanding that the cannot change at its core. the Church should keep its cultural tradition, within the Mass. music outside will remain contemporary, inasmuch as changing with the culture. this is inevitable. we can however, put this secular music in the context of Christ. this is Contemporary Christian Music.

With all that said, I have to agree with you here. I just fear that these contemporary songs lead people away from Magisterial teaching.

 

[agapewolf]

There are only a small number of Praise and worship songs that have heretical lyrics. I do not use them, or I change the words to be Catholic doctrine.

I’ve never used the songs quoted for Mass. However, awesome God is not heretical. (Not saying it should be used for Mass, its just not heretical).

THere are many many praise and worship songs that are pretty much the exact same thing musically as classical hymns. Chord for chord, almost note for note. THey employ long tones that make one want to sing louder. They are easier to sing. They dont have lyrics that have an huge amount of consonants to get in a small phrase.

I do not use the “contemporary Christian rock” heard on the radio. This is not the same as praise and worship music. Many praise and worship songs use the aforementioned phrases (by the way, amazing grace is pentatonic- in fact, most black spirituals are).

The article linked here to lifeteen is extremely inaccurate, biased, and does not have any credit to what Lifeteen is today. Lifeteen is an approved ministry, as well as approved lay association.

 

[PrayforMallory]

There are only a small number of Praise and worship songs that have heretical lyrics. I do not use them, or I change the words to be Catholic doctrine.

Those that don’t don’t reflect Catholic theology as well, though.

I’ve never used the songs quoted for Mass. However, awesome God is not heretical. (Not saying it should be used for Mass, its just not heretical).

It’s irreverent in any case, even if being irreverent doesn’t make it overtly heretical.

THere are many many praise and worship songs that are pretty much the exact same thing musically as classical hymns. Chord for chord, almost note for note. THey employ long tones that make one want to sing louder. They are easier to sing. They dont have lyrics that have an huge amount of consonants to get in a small phrase.

Really? I’d like to hear them. I’ve never heard praise and worship songs with the authenticity and austerity of the traditional music.

I do not use the “contemporary Christian rock” heard on the radio. This is not the same as praise and worship music. Many praise and worship songs use the aforementioned phrases (by the way, amazing grace is pentatonic- in fact, most black spirituals are).

True about the black spirituals. Not so much the praise and worship. The spirituals almost all reflect the anglo-saxon, american protestant traditional forms (one more reason why they shouldn’t be used). In both cases though, they are far from angelic and much more temporal in their feel.

I The article linked here to lifeteen is extremely inaccurate, biased, and does not have any credit to what Lifeteen is today. Lifeteen is an approved ministry, as well as approved lay association.

This begs the question. Do the teens need to be spoonfed? Do they not have the minds necessary to learn an authentic Catholic lifestyle and to appreciate the traditional Catholic arts? Apparently many who have posted on this thread have the capability to participate in traditional liturgy, as does my four year old. Why not instruct? Why bring the liturgy down to them instead of vice-versa?

As I said earlier, Lifeteen’s approval isn’t binding.

 

[agapewolf]

Really? I’d like to hear them. I’ve never heard praise and worship songs with the authenticity and austerity of the traditional music.

True about the black spirituals. Not so much the praise and worship. The spirituals almost all reflect the anglo-saxon, american protestant traditional forms (one more reason why they shouldn’t be used). In both cases though, they are far from angelic and much more temporal in their feel.

This begs the question. Do the teens need to be spoonfed? Do they not have the minds necessary to learn an authentic Catholic lifestyle and to appreciate the traditional Catholic arts? Apparently many who have posted on this thread have the capability to participate in traditional liturgy, as does my four year old. Why not instruct? Why bring the liturgy down to them instead of vice-versa?

.

O Praise Him by David Crowder is pretty much the same as “All Creatures of our God and King” . In fact, he also recorded that hymn too.

same type of lyrics, same arcs in the melody line, but the tones are held longer, they also reflect more arcs in the verses the follow the natural progression of what the words are speaking about. But songs don’t need to be written to imitate old hymns in order to be good.

(and by the way, the way a song is recorded does NOT mean that is the way it is instrumentalized at Mass).

It is your opinion that black spirituals aren’t angelic. Seeing as how many of them, as most of the praise and worship songs are written as actual prayers to God from the songwriter, that is quite the insult to say so. I suppose you haven’t been to an xlt that has employed this music that has 300+ teenagers singing at the top of their lungs in intense prayer. You can hear angels singing then.

Lifeteen, and contemporary music is NOT spoonfeeding, and by the way, SOME (not all ) teens, need to start with a spoonfeeding. THeir faith may be infant faith because no one has bothered to help them grow up in their faith. At many lifenights after Mass, we have taught the LOH, the traditions of Latin in the church, as well as hard doctrine, chastity, Theology of the Body, vocations, etc.

As I have said before, contemporary music has helped me to love the quiet daily Mass and quiet adoration. It was an avenue to bring me to a deeper faith. If only the TLM existed at the time, there is no way I would be in the faith where I am today. It is definately a bridge. and its approved to be so.

 

[dconklin]

One is that their lyrics lack insight and mystery, another is that the musical styles employed in this genre often lack a basic appreciation of melody. You don’t have talent? You can’t write a decent song? Go be a “Christian” rocker.

WOW! That’s pretty harsh. I am the furthest from what anyone would consider a musician, but some of them are not too bad. Casting Crowns sounds pretty good and their songs have a great message. Being biblical might be tough lyricly - but spreading the word is worth it. If a song leads one person closer to to a closer realtionship with God, awesome.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Hi and welcome back everyone!

I saw this article just before the forums went down and I’ve been waiting to post it here. I want to see what you all think of it.

Teenagers and Church Music: What Do They Really Think?

“What do teens think is the appropriate kind of music for a worship setting? An interview with a professor of music education who researched this question provides some interesting answers.”

I love modern christian music outside of mass. It is not apporpiate for the mass. I think that the ancient chants and music of the Church are beautiful.

 

[PrayforMallory]

WOW! That’s pretty harsh. I am the furthest from what anyone would consider a musician, but some of them are not too bad. Casting Crowns sounds pretty good and their songs have a great message. Being biblical might be tough lyricly - but spreading the word is worth it. If a song leads one person closer to to a closer realtionship with God, awesome.

Yeah it was a little too harsh. People listening to certain genres outside of Mass, well, you can’t come down on that in any kind of substantial way. I don’t like that genre, but what somebody listens to outside of Mass is well, up to them as individuals.

Ironically, a debate was started when the parties concerned agreed on the important thing, i.e. the Holy Mass.

 

[PrayforMallory]

O Praise Him by David Crowder is pretty much the same as “All Creatures of our God and King” . In fact, he also recorded that hymn too.

Never heard the two in question. Until I switched to EF, it was all “On Eagles’ Wings” in the Churches I attended.

same type of lyrics, same arcs in the melody line, but the tones are held longer, they also reflect more arcs in the verses the follow the natural progression of what the words are speaking about. But songs don’t need to be written to imitate old hymns in order to be good.

(and by the way, the way a song is recorded does NOT mean that is the way it is instrumentalized at Mass).

Same type of lyrics? Really? So this genre contains the rich lyrically content and subtleties of Chant? To me, they mirror the impoverished theology of the Protestant traditions this music stems from.

Obviously a song is not often recorded the same as it is performed.

It is your opinion that black spirituals aren’t angelic. Seeing as how many of them, as most of the praise and worship songs are written as actual prayers to God from the songwriter, that is quite the insult to say so. I suppose you haven’t been to an xlt that has employed this music that has 300+ teenagers singing at the top of their lungs in intense prayer. You can hear angels singing then.

No they are not angelic. They were not written by angels. I never denied that they were prayers, they are just inferiorly-written, often non-Catholic prayers. I’ve been to plenty of protesant services with 300+ teens singing simple songs and not coming away with an interior, intellectual grasp of the necessity of the faith, though.

Maybe I’m hard of hearing, but I’ve actually never heard angels sing.

Lifeteen, and contemporary music is NOT spoonfeeding, and by the way, SOME (not all ) teens, need to start with a spoonfeeding. THeir faith may be infant faith because no one has bothered to help them grow up in their faith. At many lifenights after Mass, we have taught the LOH, the traditions of Latin in the church, as well as hard doctrine, chastity, Theology of the Body, vocations, etc.

This statement is confusing. Is it or is it not spoonfeeding? If you feel spoonfeeding is necessary, that’s fine. It might be in some instances. If it isn’t spoonfeeding, that’s fine too.

Personally, I think kids can and ought to be taught tradition and the philosophy of Christianity, so that they can defend their faith when they enter a university, instead of becoming enamored with secular modes of thought. An 18 year old is an adult. He or she needs an adult faith.

As I have said before, contemporary music has helped me to love the quiet daily Mass and quiet adoration. It was an avenue to bring me to a deeper faith. If only the TLM existed at the time, there is no way I would be in the faith where I am today. It is definately a bridge. and its approved to be so.

How? How has it helped you more than basic Catechism? It’s fine if you were helped by it. It’s fine that you like Christian pop.

As for the TLM, well, there are plenty of teenagers and even toddlers who can sit still an at least in a childish way, internalize the message of the TLM. Maybe you are selling your own self short?

You evidently can think critically about music. Surely you could have found the TLM edifying?

In the end, I don’t have such a stringent problem with Lifeteen that I would ban it, simply because it does help some people evidently. As for me and my house, however, it’s got to be tradition.

 

[agapewolf]

Never heard the two in question. Until I switched to EF, it was all “On Eagles’ Wings” in the Churches I attended.

Same type of lyrics? Really? So this genre contains the rich lyrically content and subtleties of Chant? To me, they mirror the impoverished theology of the Protestant traditions this music stems from.

Obviously a song is not often recorded the same as it is performed.

No they are not angelic. They were not written by angels. I never denied that they were prayers, they are just inferiorly-written, often non-Catholic prayers. I’ve been to plenty of protesant services with 300+ teens singing simple songs and not coming away with an interior, intellectual grasp of the necessity of the faith, though.

Maybe I’m hard of hearing, but I’ve actually never heard angels sing.

This statement is confusing. Is it or is it not spoonfeeding? If you feel spoonfeeding is necessary, that’s fine. It might be in some instances. If it isn’t spoonfeeding, that’s fine too.

Personally, I think kids can and ought to be taught tradition and the philosophy of Christianity, so that they can defend their faith when they enter a university, instead of becoming enamored with secular modes of thought. An 18 year old is an adult. He or she needs an adult faith.

How? How has it helped you more than basic Catechism? It’s fine if you were helped by it. It’s fine that you like Christian pop.

As for the TLM, well, there are plenty of teenagers and even toddlers who can sit still an at least in a childish way, internalize the message of the TLM. Maybe you are selling your own self short?

You evidently can think critically about music. Surely you could have found the TLM edifying?

In the end, I don’t have such a stringent problem with Lifeteen that I would ban it, simply because it does help some people evidently. As for me and my house, however, it’s got to be tradition.

On Eagles wings is NOT…I repeat, NOT praise and worship.

Yes, the lyrics are the same…

All Creatures of our God and king, lift up your voices let us sing, o Praise Him O Praise him. bright burning sun with golden beams. Soft silver moon that gently gleams o Priase him

OR
O Praise him by david crowder
How constant how divine this love of ours will rise , how infinate and sweet this love so rescuing…O Praise Him O Praise Him He is holy he is holy

How dare you say they are not angelic. You are not their spiritual director, you do not know what happens when they write…Take Michael John Poirier for instance. Very Catholic Man. He sat in my office writing music for a wedding 1/2 hour before a wedding he was supposed to play…becasue the ANGELS write the songs for him. He has no labor involved. I witnessed it myself. I’ve heard the angels add another voice to him.

How do you know the teens dont’ come away with a grasp of the faith after singing? I witness it every single week. After mass, they want to go to the lifenight for further growth. They are inspired.

 

[Margarite]

I would say, that while most modern music is not strictly heretical, it is not supportive, or conducive to Catholic thought and theology.
Let’s look at a couple modern songs in used in Mass, and those of us who dislike it can critique it, and those of you who like it can defend it. Then, we can pick a more classic hymn and you can critique it and we will defend it, and then I think we will be able to see the where the others stand more clearly.

I asked earlier, how Christian music can help a person pray, and I was told that those who do find it helpful would ask me the same question, so I will answer, and then maybe I will get my answer.

I find that classical Catholic music helps me in these ways:

The words used in the traditional songs express so perfectly the way we should feel (I don’t like that word, but I can’t think of another one) about the Church’s doctrines. Such as in Godhead Here in Hiding "Godhead here in hiding whom I do adore masked by these bare shadows shape and nothing more see Lord at Thy service low lies here a heart lost all lost in wonder at the God Thou art. Seeing, touching, tasting, are in Thee deceived how says trusty hearing? that shall be believed what God’s Son has told me take for truth I do Truth Himself speaks truly or there’s nothing true. On the cross Thy Godhead made no sign to men here Thy very manhood steals from human ken both are my confession both are my belief and I pray the prayer of the dying thief. I am not like Thomas wounds I cannot see but I plainly call Thee Lord and God as he this faith each day deeper be my holding of daily make me harder hope and dearer love. etc…
And so it goes on, so beautifully expressing our belief in the Eucharist, and how we must believe. What modern hymn can be compared? Not only is this beautiful in wording, but the tune is also simple enough that even an unpracticed singer can sing along and not feel overwhelmed. Church music is supposed to be regular and easy enough for everyone to sing, without going high or low, or changing notes too quickly for the lay people to follow. That is why it is all very similar. I can’t read music, I can see when the notes go up and when they go down, but otherwise my knowledge is zip, but the old songs, I have no trouble picking them up because they are simple. The new songs, so often they suddenly change from high to low, or they are sharp or flat.

Well, you get the point. I have to go.

 

[benedictgal]

Originally Posted by agapewolf
Lifeteen, and contemporary music is NOT spoonfeeding, and by the way, SOME (not all ) teens, need to start with a spoonfeeding. THeir faith may be infant faith because no one has bothered to help them grow up in their faith. At many lifenights after Mass, we have taught the LOH, the traditions of Latin in the church, as well as hard doctrine, chastity, Theology of the Body, vocations, etc.

What about using this novel approach? How about actually teaching them to sing the sacred songs of our Church’s rich treasury of liturgical music in Latin?

Unfortunately, what proponents of LifeTeen fail to realize is that the use of contemporary, and, Praise and Worship pop, is one of the things that the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist deemed as one of the shadows of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

According to the Instrumentum Laboris:

Various responses to the Lineamenta recommend that singing at Mass and Eucharistic Adoration be done in a dignified manner. The faithful need to know the standard Gregorian chants, which have been composed to meet the needs of people of all times and places, in virtue of their simplicity, refinement and agility in form and rhythm. As a result, the songs and hymns presently in use need to be reconsidered.87 To enter into sacred or religious usage, instrumental or vocal music is to have a sense of prayer, dignity and beauty. This requires an integrity of form, expressing true artistry, corresponding to the various rites and capable of adaptation to the legitimate demands of inculturation. This is to be done without detracting from the idea of universality. Gregorian chant fulfills these needs and can therefore serve as a model, according to Pope John Paul II.88 Musicians and poets should be encouraged to compose new hymns, according to liturgical standards, which contain authentic catechetical teaching on the paschal mystery, Sunday and the Eucharist.

In other responses some lamented the poor quality of translations of liturgical texts and many musical texts in current languages, maintaining that they lacked beauty and were sometimes theologically unclear, thereby contributing to a weakening of Church teaching and to a misunderstanding of prayer. A few responses made particular mention of music and singing at Youth Masses. In this regard, it is important to avoid musical forms which, because of their profane use, are not conducive to prayer. Some responses note a certain eagerness in composing new songs, to the point of almost yielding to a consumer mentality, showing little concern for the quality of the music and text, and easily overlooking the artistic patrimony which has been theologically and musically effective in the Church’s liturgy.

This comes directly from the Holy See’s website. It is not the musings of a particular interest group. Rather, these are the findings of the Synod Fathers.

You can try as you might to defend the music used at these teen Masses. However, they are fraught with problems and have little to no substance, as per this very telling quote from the working document. That is why, in his response to the Synod Father’s observations, Pope Benedict made this very true statement:

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy (131).

In other words, rather than using the junk that publishing houses like OCP spew out, with its nebulous doctrine and commercially-influenced melodies, those who are proponents of the music for the teen Masses should use music that the Church has held sacred for many centuries. These hymns are an integral part of our Church and are of better quality than the trite out today.

It seems that the proponents of “contemporary hymns” and their purveyors are more interested in what is “in” rather than immersing themselves in the sublime beauty of the Church’s rich deposit of sacred music. I would challenge these folks to use the Church’s treasury for one montn and introduce the sublime, noble and sacred into their liturgies.

 

[benedictgal]

Question: What if Gregorian Chant or traditional hymns are done poorly in a particular liturgy? Would they still be an effective means for growing faith? Not necessarily, at least according to our bishops.

Clearly, our shepherds believe that:

1. Liturgy needs to be done well if it is to have a positive impact on faith.
2. Liturgy that incorporates contemporary style of music is both licit and appropriate for young people who prefer that style.

I always encourage those who do not prefer a contemporary style of music to simply attend a different liturgy. And I praise God when teens tell me they enjoy a variety of liturgical music styles. Frankly, I am baffled by those who believe that our God is not big enough to use a variety of means for drawing people to Himself.

Our parish keeps both of the above principals firmly in mind when offering the Life Teen liturgy. We work hard to do this liturgy well, offering music that is liturgically licit and culturally appropriate. And the fruits of the program show it.

Actually, I would challenge you to read what Pope Benedict wrote regarding sacred music.

Then there are two developments in music itself that have their origins primarily in the West but that for a long time have affected the whole of mankind in the world culture that is being formed. Modern so-called “classical” music has maneuvered itself, with some exceptions, into an elitist ghetto, which only specialists may enter – and even they do so with what may sometimes be mixed feelings. The music of the masses has broken loose from this and treads a very different path.

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.

Furthermore, the Servant of God, Pope John Paul II, the founder of World Youth Day, made some very concrete observations regarding Sacred Music that carry much more weight than Music in Catholic Worship:

The reform effected by Saint Pius X had specifically in view the purification of Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music, which in many countries had polluted liturgical music repertoire and praxis. This is also to be considered attentively in our times, as I have placed in evidence in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia: that not all expressions of the figurative arts and of music are capable “of adequately expressing the Mystery worshipped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”. As a consequence, not all musical forms can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

1. Another principle enunciated by Saint Pius X in the motu proprio Tra le sollecitudini, a principle moreover intimately connected to the preceding, is that of goodness of form. There can be no music destined for the celebration of the sacred rites that be not first “true art”, capable of having that efficacy “which the Church intends to obtain by receiving into her liturgy the art of sounds”.
   And still such quality by itself is not enough. Liturgical music must indeed comply with its specific requirements: full adherence to the texts that it presents, consonance with the liturgical season and moment to which it is destined, adequate correspondence to the gestures that the rite proposes…

[T]he sacred sphere of the liturgical celebration must never become a laboratory for experimentation or compositional and performance practices introduced without careful control.

Unfortunately, the early proponents (and the publishing houses that release these songs) of music for Teen Masses were led by the alleged Spirit of Vatican II and virtually ignored what the documents actually said. Were things hunky-dory, as many people claim they are, neither Pope John Paul II nor Pope Benedict XVI (as Cardinal Ratzinger and as Supreme Pontiff) would have written the quoted words. Furthermore, Pope Benedict is a classically trained musician and speaks with clear authority on the matter of sacred music. Unfortunately, his words have fallen on many a tone deaf ear.

 

[PrayforMallory]

On Eagles wings is NOT…I repeat, NOT praise and worship.

Yes, the lyrics are the same…

All Creatures of our God and king, lift up your voices let us sing, o Praise Him O Praise him. bright burning sun with golden beams. Soft silver moon that gently gleams o Priase him

OR
O Praise him by david crowder
How constant how divine this love of ours will rise , how infinate and sweet this love so rescuing…O Praise Him O Praise Him He is holy he is holy

Do the musical styles of these pieces match the solemnity and traditional character of true Catholic worship? Are the musical styles thoroughly “Catholic?” Do they represent Catholic theology and practice? Those are the questions I’m concerned with, personally.

How dare you say they are not angelic. You are not their spiritual director, you do not know what happens when they write…Take Michael John Poirier for instance. Very Catholic Man. He sat in my office writing music for a wedding 1/2 hour before a wedding he was supposed to play…becasue the ANGELS write the songs for him. He has no labor involved. I witnessed it myself. I’ve heard the angels add another voice to him.

I’m not really sure how to respond to this…
Dang. Apparently angels can have poor taste also, if this music resembles most of the stuff labeled under “Praise and Worship.”

How do you know the teens dont’ come away with a grasp of the faith after singing? I witness it every single week. After mass, they want to go to the lifenight for further growth. They are inspired.

I went to that kinda thing as a teen. I was raised in that stuff, remember. I’m not seeing the good fruits. I see kids in college without an adult faith.