Teleology important for science

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Cheiron said:
How did you come to that conclusion? Why is truth a figment of the imagination in the materialist worldview? :confused:
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Because the truth is intangible! It cannot be detected by the physical senses or described scientifically…
 
tonyrey said:
Because the truth is intangible! It cannot be detected by the physical senses or described scientifically…
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Truth is a label for what we perceive to be true. And how do we discover what is true? Primarily with our senses. So I agree the word truth is an abstract concept, but I wouldn’t say it’s a figment of our imagination, because that implies that in a materialist worldview there is no way of discerning truth from falsehood.
 
Animals have the ability to distinguish various objects, thus understanding certain similarities. They also may have the ability to know they are thinking. How does something material reflect on itself? It can feel itself thinking so it can reflect back on the “thought”. Humans however can see ETERNAL truths, and feel ETERNAL commandments from their conscience. Belief in God perhaps is easier to understand than belief in the soul with societies emphasis on the brain. It is well known in the government agencies around the world, moreover, that once a person understands what “God” means, he can’t deny that he believes in God to a lie detector test. Do such a test on any of the atheists on this forum and they will reveal that deep down they believe in God. Nobody who understands what God means can deny that they believe in him. It is the only thing that makes perfect sense of this world and our life in it
 
Cheiron said:
Because the truth is intangible! It cannot be detected by the physical senses or described scientifically…
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That is precisely what I intended to point out! If truth doesn’t exist there is no such distinction, strange though it may seem. Of course it is absurd but that doesn’t prevent people from failing to recognise the consequences of their theories… 😉
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Cheiron said:
Truth is a label for what we perceive to be true. And how do we discover what is true? Primarily with our senses. So I agree the word truth is an abstract concept, but I wouldn’t say it’s a figment of our imagination, because that implies that in a materialist worldview there is no way of discerning truth from falsehood.
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There are obviously ways of discerning truth from falsehood but it doesn’t follow that they have anything in common in the materialists’ mindless, atomistic scheme of things. They are quite capable of analysis but synthesis is beyond their scope. Persons, for example, don’t exist because there are no intangible entities - only bodies which are unaware of themselves! Freedom and consciousness are meaningless from a strictly scientific point of view because they cannot be detected by the five senses. That is why logical positivism was abandoned because its adherents realised the verifiability principle (or any other principle) cannot be verified because it has no temporal or spatial location! In technical terms abstract concepts have no ontological foundation for those who believe reality consists solely of the derivatives of molecular structures… Probably the most spectacular consequence of materialism is the disappearance of purposeful activity which implies foresight whereas science is essentially retrospective and explains everything in terms of past events. Causality is a one-way cul de sac leading back to the Big Bang and perhaps beyond. The future has no effect on events and purposeful behaviour is an illusion because it would violate the principle of conservation of energy. Materialism leads inevitably to fatalism…
 
tonyrey said:
There are obviously ways of discerning truth from falsehood but it doesn’t follow that they have anything in common in the materialists’ mindless, atomistic scheme of things. They are quite capable of analysis but synthesis is beyond their scope. Persons, for example, don’t exist because there are no intangible entities - only bodies which are unaware of themselves! Freedom and consciousness are meaningless from a strictly scientific point of view because they cannot be detected by the five senses. That is why logical positivism was abandoned because its adherents realised the verifiability principle (or any other principle) cannot be verified because it has no temporal or spatial location! In technical terms abstract concepts have no ontological foundation for those who believe reality consists solely of the derivatives of molecular structures… Probably the most spectacular consequence of materialism is the disappearance of purposeful activity which implies foresight whereas science is essentially retrospective and explains everything in terms of past events. Causality is a one-way cul de sac leading back to the Big Bang and perhaps beyond. The future has no effect on events and purposeful behaviour is an illusion because it would violate the principle of conservation of energy. Materialism leads inevitably to fatalism…
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😃

In 2009, when professional philosophers, other PhDs, and graduate students last completely a survey, 57% said they accept or lean toward physicalism of the mind.

None of them would recognize what you wrote above as having anything to do with their philosophy, or even being coherent.

According to you, materialists see their children as mindless unaware non-persons as they tuck them in at night. According to you, materialists lack even basic human nature. As a Christian, do you think you’re called to build walls or build bridges?
 
inocente said:
There are obviously ways
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57%! Most unconvincing… Even they only “lean toward”.:rolleyes:
None of them would recognize what you wrote above as having anything to do with their philosophy, or even being coherent.
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Unsurprising in a secular society dominated by neoDarwinist propaganda on the media spearheaded by David Attenborough…
According to you, materialists see their children as mindless unaware non-persons as they tuck them in at night. According to you, materialists lack even basic human nature.
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Very often people are inconsistent and don’t live according to the implications of their hypothesis that we exist by chance for no reason whatsoever in a mindless universe…
As a Christian, do you think you’re called to build walls or build bridges?
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Not based on deception…

BTW It is significant you have failed to refute a single one of the points I have made… Why not make an attempt at least?
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tonyrey said:
Unsurprising in a secular society dominated by neoDarwinist propaganda on the media spearheaded by David Attenborough.
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BTW It is significant you have failed to refute a single one of the points I have made… Why not make an attempt at least?
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You’re doing a pretty good job yourself. :cool:
 
inocente said:
You’re doing a pretty good job yourself. :cool:
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Thanks for the compliment!
  1. There are obviously ways of discerning truth from falsehood but it doesn’t follow that they have anything in common in the materialists’ mindless, atomistic scheme of things.
  2. They are quite capable of** analysis **but synthesis is beyond their scope. Persons, for example, don’t exist because there are no intangible entities - only bodies which are unaware of themselves!
  3. Freedom and consciousness are meaningless from a strictly scientific point of view because they cannot be detected by the five senses. That is why logical positivism was abandoned because its adherents realised the verifiability principle (or any other principle) cannot be verified because it has no temporal or spatial location! In technical terms abstract concepts have no ontological foundation for those who believe reality consists solely of the derivatives of molecular structures…
  4. Probably the most spectacular consequence of materialism is the disappearance of purposeful activity which implies foresight whereas** science** is essentially retrospective and explains everything in terms of past events. Causality is a one-way cul de sac leading back to the Big Bang and perhaps beyond.
  5. The future has no effect on events and purposeful behaviour is an illusion because it would violate** the principle of conservation of energy.** Materialism leads inevitably to fatalism…
 
tonyrey said:
tonyrey;14167750:
BTW It is significant you have failed to refute a single one of the points I have made… Why not make an attempt at least?
inocente;14167799:
You’re doing a pretty good job yourself. :cool:
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Thanks for the compliment!
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Look again.
synthesis is beyond their scope. Persons, for example, don’t exist … Freedom and consciousness are meaningless … purposeful behaviour is an illusion because it would violate* the principle of conservation of energy.*** Materialism leads inevitably to fatalism…
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You say that’s spearheaded by David Attenborough, so please cite him saying it.

If you don’t then no doubt a logical, moderate, mature adult such as your good self will agree you leave no option but to conclude that materialists don’t believe any of that because you made it up.
 
inocente said:
Look again.

You say that’s spearheaded by David Attenborough, so please cite him saying it.If you don’t then no doubt a logical, moderate, mature adult such as your good self will agree you leave no option but to conclude that materialists don’t believe any of that because you made it up.
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NB:
When creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that’s going to make him blind.And , ‘Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child’s eyeball? Because that doesn’t seem to me to coincide with a God who’s full of mercy. theinfidels.org/zunb-attenborough.htmIt remains true that:
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  1. There are obviously ways of discerning truth from falsehood but it doesn’t follow that they have anything in common in the materialists’ mindless, atomistic scheme of things.
Click to expand...
  1. They are quite capable of** analysis **but synthesis is beyond their scope. Persons, for example, don’t exist because there are no intangible entities - only bodies which are unaware of themselves!
Click to expand...
  1. Freedom and consciousness are meaningless from a strictly scientific point of view because they cannot be detected by the five senses. That is why logical positivism was abandoned because its adherents realised the verifiability principle (or any other principle) cannot be verified because it has no temporal or spatial location! In technical terms abstract concepts have no ontological foundation for those who believe reality consists solely of the derivatives of molecular structures…
Click to expand...
  1. Probably the most spectacular consequence of materialism is the disappearance of purposeful activity which implies foresight whereas** science** is essentially retrospective and explains everything in terms of past events. Causality is a one-way cul de sac leading back to the Big Bang and perhaps beyond.
Click to expand...
  1. The future has no effect on events and purposeful behaviour is an illusion because it would violate** the principle of conservation of energy.** Materialism leads inevitably to fatalism…
Click to expand...
 
tonyrey said:
NB: theinfidels.org/zunb-attenborough.htmIt remains true that:
  1. There are obviously ways of discerning truth from falsehood but it doesn’t follow that they have anything in common in the materialists’ mindless, atomistic scheme of things.
  2. They are quite capable of** analysis **but synthesis is beyond their scope. Persons, for example, don’t exist because there are no intangible entities - only bodies which are unaware of themselves!
  3. Freedom and consciousness are meaningless from a strictly scientific point of view because they cannot be detected by the five senses. That is why logical positivism was abandoned because its adherents realised the verifiability principle (or any other principle) cannot be verified because it has no temporal or spatial location! In technical terms abstract concepts have no ontological foundation for those who believe reality consists solely of the derivatives of molecular structures…
  4. Probably the most spectacular consequence of materialism is the disappearance of purposeful activity which implies foresight whereas** science** is essentially retrospective and explains everything in terms of past events. Causality is a one-way cul de sac leading back to the Big Bang and perhaps beyond.
  5. The future has no effect on events and purposeful behaviour is an illusion because it would violate** the principle of conservation of energy.** Materialism leads inevitably to fatalism…
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“I don’t fear death, but I fear suffering, of course, who wouldn’t? You hope when the moment comes that it won’t last long and it won’t be a trial and tribulation to those you hold dear. But I know perfectly well that I’m not immortal.”
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skeptical-science.com/atheism/atheism-coping-grief-sir-david-attenborough-case-study/
 
tonyrey said:
NB: theinfidels.org/zunb-attenborough.htm
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tonyrey said:
skeptical-science.com/atheism/atheism-coping-grief-sir-david-attenborough-case-study/
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I asked you to cite Attenborough stating any of the things you allege materialists believe (“synthesis is beyond their scope. Persons, for example, don’t exist … Freedom and consciousness are meaningless … purposeful behaviour is an illusion because it would violate the principle of conservation of energy. Materialism leads inevitably to fatalism…”).

He says none of that, not one word of it, in those pages.

If you disagree with him, have the decency to disagree with him for what he says and stop trying to put your words in his mouth.
 
Sorry for my late response, but I have a hard time understanding the argument.
tonyrey said:
There are obviously ways of discerning truth from falsehood but it doesn’t follow that they have anything in common in the materialists’ mindless, atomistic scheme of things.
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Empiricism is a method; the results of which lead to a materialist worldview. Empiricism hasn’t got anything in common with the materialist worldview in the sense that it could also have led to a Christian worldview if there was any empirical evidence for it.
They are quite capable of analysis but synthesis is beyond their scope. Persons, for example, don’t exist because there are no intangible entities - only bodies which are unaware of themselves!
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Synthesis between what? And yes, persons do exist. It’s obviously false that the human body is intangible. It’s also false that I’m not aware of my own existence.
Freedom and consciousness are meaningless from a strictly scientific point of view because they cannot be detected by the five senses. That is why logical positivism was abandoned because its adherents realised the verifiability principle (or any other principle) cannot be verified because it has no temporal or spatial location! In technical terms abstract concepts have no ontological foundation for those who believe reality consists solely of the derivatives of molecular structures…
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We were talking about materialism. In the first sentence you’re suddenly talking about a scientific point of view and in the next you’re criticizing logical positivism. Please stick to the subject. I’m also surprised to find out I can’t detect freedom. When I go on holiday to Italy by car, I don’t have to show my passport a single time. If, however, I’m going to visit London, I do have to show my passport. Ofcourse I notice these differences in freedom!
Probably the most spectacular consequence of materialism is the disappearance of purposeful activity which implies foresight whereas science is essentially retrospective and explains everything in terms of past events. Causality is a one-way cul de sac leading back to the Big Bang and perhaps beyond.
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Purposeful activity disappears with materialism because science is essentially retrospective. What? :confused: Materialism, science and logical positivism all seem to be the exact same thing to you. They’re not.
The future has no effect on events and purposeful behaviour is an illusion because it would violate the principle of conservation of energy.
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Like others, I don’t see why this is true.
Materialism leads inevitably to fatalism…
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Nope.
 
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