Televangelists

[heisenburg]

A quick question to protestants here…

DISCLAIMER:I know this is NOT representative of individual protestants, but it is the most vocal it seems…

I flip through the protestant Christian stations from time to time and noticed a frequent “message” by many televangelists. Example, last night, I saw one “minister” proclaim, that if you send him $40 dollars, he will show you how to do miracles for yourself.

Other recent examples include another “minister” that says he will give you a “holy Bank account” that will magically produce “miracle money”.

Some are more subtle by spending 3 minutes preaching the gospel, then 2 minutes asking for donations, then a few more minutes talking about Paul, Back to asking for donations.

I’ve even heard some go so far as to say, if you donate to any ministry (a little better i guess) then god WILL give you that money back 190%. Preached for half an hour on how god will “repay” you financially/…

Anyway… long story short…

Why is this seemingly such a common practice now. My sister sadly goes to a church that preaches (effectively) God is nothing more than a giant easter bunny that will give you what you ask if you “pray hard enough”.

Do you consider this faction of protestantism Christian? Valid Based on their understanding? or merely charlatans (as they should be rightfully).

Also, if (hopefully) most protestants see this movement as a bad thing, are things being done over all across denominations to counter this?

Again… not insulting the protestant faith, just seems to be a disturbing development that is taking root like never before .

In Christ

 

[Tomster]

A quick question to protestants here…

DISCLAIMER:I know this is NOT representative of individual protestants, but it is the most vocal it seems…

I flip through the protestant Christian stations from time to time and noticed a frequent “message” by many televangelists. Example, last night, I saw one “minister” proclaim, that if you send him $40 dollars, he will show you how to do miracles for yourself.

Other recent examples include another “minister” that says he will give you a “holy Bank account” that will magically produce “miracle money”.

Some are more subtle by spending 3 minutes preaching the gospel, then 2 minutes asking for donations, then a few more minutes talking about Paul, Back to asking for donations.

I’ve even heard some go so far as to say, if you donate to any ministry (a little better i guess) then god WILL give you that money back 190%. Preached for half an hour on how god will “repay” you financially/…

Anyway… long story short…

Why is this seemingly such a common practice now. My sister sadly goes to a church that preaches (effectively) God is nothing more than a giant easter bunny that will give you what you ask if you “pray hard enough”.

Do you consider this faction of protestantism Christian? Valid Based on their understanding? or merely charlatans (as they should be rightfully).

Also, if (hopefully) most protestants see this movement as a bad thing, are things being done over all across denominations to counter this?

Again… not insulting the protestant faith, just seems to be a disturbing development that is taking root like never before .

In Christ

It sounds like these guys are selling indulgences.

 

[joeganshert]

It sounds like these guys are selling indulgences.

My thoughts exactly. When protestants tell me that the Church was wrong for selling indulgences during the middle ages, I ask them what these men are doing. Quite a flip flop on the issues so it seems.

 

[BrianH]

A very well done thread. The “prosperity gospel”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
is indeed growing it appears.
As far as what is being done, certainly some groups are highly criticial of this. Some are indifferent. My general impression is that MOST of these preachers are not part of a formal denomination anymore and they can essentially do what they want to do!! I can see it increasing.
Why is it growing? An easy gospel message or a false gospel message seems to always find plenty of ready ears and minds to believe.

 

[kaycee]

My thoughts exactly. When protestants tell me that the Church was wrong for selling indulgences during the middle ages, I ask them what these men are doing. Quite a flip flop on the issues so it seems.

Hucksters and swindlers!

 

[Mickey]

Again… not insulting the protestant faith, just seems to be a disturbing development that is taking root like never before.

It boggles my mind that so many people fall prey to this type of scam. I fear that it may be mostly ederly. That causes my heart to ache.

 

[heisenburg]

I want to reiterate. I don’t think it was said blatantly, but was implied. I don’t think we can point and laugh at protestants because there is this sect. All churches have sinful people.

Asking a protestant about this as proof they are wrong isn’t a good way to go. (i wasn’t tying to pick on you joeganshert, just making a comment. Sorry if it came out that way)

Anyway… My concern is just how overwhelmingly popular this idea has become. It seems ALL protestant denoms (and Catholics to an extent) are loosing members to it, For a number of protestant denoms, this loose is staggering. Looking at what churches/denoms that are growing the fastest, they almost all preach this to some extent. I’ve even heard some reports (though don’t remember source) that a number of the largest traditional Denoms may be gone before too long because of this exodus.

Though I don’t agree with a lot of the protestant theologies, Id much rather people stay in the more traditional denoms, than a mass exodus to “prosperity gospel” It is a growing threat to protestantism. and its growing very rapidly. I hear this idea more now than i do OSAS. Turn on any protestant tv/radio station… and more often than not, this will be preached.

I just worry if this may be the end of Protestantism as we know it. Especially if there is no unified effort to counter it.

Again, not attacking anyones belief, (except the one in question)

In Christ

 

[Baraq]

A quick question to protestants here…

DISCLAIMER:I know this is NOT representative of individual protestants, but it is the most vocal it seems…

I flip through the protestant Christian stations from time to time and noticed a frequent “message” by many televangelists. Example, last night, I saw one “minister” proclaim, that if you send him $40 dollars, he will show you how to do miracles for yourself.
…

Do you consider this faction of protestantism Christian? Valid Based on their understanding? or merely charlatans (as they should be rightfully).

In Christ

$40?
Are you sure?

That guy is such a heretic, the official handbook tells us not to take anything less than $78 for miracles

 

[Mickey]

the official handbook tells us not to take anything less than $78 for miracles

Are you a televangelist?

 

[BrianH]

$40?
Are you sure?

That guy is such a heretic, the official handbook tells us not to take anything less than $78 for miracles

LOL

 

[KarenNC]

Why is this seemingly such a common practice now. My sister sadly goes to a church that preaches (effectively) God is nothing more than a giant easter bunny that will give you what you ask if you “pray hard enough”.

Because some are greedy and want something for little or no effort? Because some are desparate enough to clutch at anything that looks like it promises them a way out–out of grinding poverty, bad relationships, dead-end jobs, illness of themselves or a loved one, any bad (and bad is relative) situation? Because some are simply gullible? Because some want to believe it so badly for whatever reason that they are willing to turn off their critical faculties and not to apply common sense to the situation? Because people want a quick fix? Because people want a simple, straightforward reliable formula–clear cut rules, without gray areas? Because people are human?

Is it really that different than selling statues of St. Joseph with the promise that he will help you sell your house? Selling charms, relics, medals, feng shui kits, etc that are supposed to grant specific blessings? Selling books of spells that promise to bring prosperity/love, etc?

There are hucksters in every religion who are ready and willing to turn a profit off of others in the name of that religion. There are people who will fall for hucksterism in any area, not just religious ones.

Is it substantially different in intent (not just financial gain) from saying that if you do x (pray a certain number of specific prayers at a specific time in a specific way) you will get y (your desired result)? Particularly that if you buy this charm, do this thing, pray this prayer, you will be healed or your needs met in a specific concrete and, often at least implied, immediate way? My term for this is vending machine theology, and it is far from limited to any form of Christianity.

There are people in every religion who are eager, even desparate, to believe that life and our relationship with divinity can be reduced to something that reliably predictable, something that we can control. This has not been my experience of religion.

I am far from a fan of any televangelist (I have seen their devastating effects on members of my own family), but this sort of thing is not limited to them, nor to prosperity theology, nor to Protestant Christianity, nor to Christianity period. It is also far from new. The televangelists are simply very visible and able to work (relatively) new technology to their financial benefit.

 

[rtconstant]

This is a disturbing trend. It has flowered out of the pentecostal/charismatic movement which is the fastest growing evangelical movement.

I’ve noticed that TBN is now almost exclusively “Prosperity” now. I’m very afraid that this movement is going to end up being the dominant force in the evangelical denominations.

 

[BrianH]

This is a disturbing trend. It has flowered out of the pentecostal/charismatic movement which is the fastest growing evangelical movement.

I’ve noticed that TBN is now almost exclusively “Prosperity” now. I’m very afraid that this movement is going to end up being the dominant force in the evangelical denominations.

I just cannot see the Baptists doing it…
I wonder what some of the “mainstream” charismatic denominations(Assemblies of God and such) say about this?

 

[KarenNC]

I just cannot see the Baptists doing it…
I wonder what some of the “mainstream” charismatic denominations(Assemblies of God and such) say about this?

Here’s what I could find about the affiliations of a variety of televangelists, though I only looked at names I had heard. There are probably others.

Jerry Falwell—ordained Baptist minister
Oral Roberts --raised and ordained Pentecostal Holiness, became Methodist later on
Billy Graham —ordained Baptist minister
Pat Robertson – ordained Baptist minister
Charles Coughlin (radio evangelist of early 20th century)–Roman Catholic
Peter Popoff–unclear if he has an affiliation
Jim Bakker --Assembly of God
Jimmy Swaggart --Assembly of God
Benny Hinn – International Council of Faith Churches and ministers
Kenneth Copeland–unclear
Kenneth Hagin–Assemblies of God
Kathryn Kulman --Baptist, ordained by Evangelical Church Alliance
Rex Humbard – ordained by his father
Morris Cerullo --Assembly of God
Marilyn Hickey --appears connected to Assembly of God
James Robison–unclear
Jack Van Impe - unclear
Robert Tilton – unclear
Charles Stanley – Baptist
Fulton Sheen (20th century) --Roman Catholic
Robert Schuller – Reformed Church in America
Ernest Angley – raised Baptist, unclear if ordained
James Kennedy – Presbyterian

 

[joeganshert]

Asking a protestant about this as proof they are wrong isn’t a good way to go. (i wasn’t tying to pick on you joeganshert, just making a comment. Sorry if it came out that way)

No offense taken It was my mistake for taking my example out of context. I was actually told by a protestant that the Catholic Church was especially bad for selling indulgences during the reformation and that I should try listening to Pat Robertson or some other guy I’d never heard of.

 

[Baraq]

Here’s what I could find about the affiliations of a variety of televangelists, though I only looked at names I had heard. There are probably others.

Jerry Falwell—ordained Baptist minister
Oral Roberts --raised and ordained Pentecostal Holiness, became Methodist later on
Billy Graham —ordained Baptist minister
Pat Robertson – ordained Baptist minister
Charles Coughlin (radio evangelist of early 20th century)–Roman Catholic
Peter Popoff–unclear if he has an affiliation
Jim Bakker --Assembly of God
Jimmy Swaggart --Assembly of God
Benny Hinn – International Council of Faith Churches and ministers
Kenneth Copeland–unclear
Kenneth Hagin–Assemblies of God
Kathryn Kulman --Baptist, ordained by Evangelical Church Alliance
Rex Humbard – ordained by his father
Morris Cerullo --Assembly of God
Marilyn Hickey --appears connected to Assembly of God
James Robison–unclear
Jack Van Impe - unclear
Robert Tilton – unclear
Charles Stanley – Baptist
Fulton Sheen (20th century) --Roman Catholic
Robert Schuller – Reformed Church in America
Ernest Angley – raised Baptist, unclear if ordained
James Kennedy – Presbyterian

Karen, that looks like an old group(at least some of them had some schooling). TBN has a number of ‘name and claim it’ preachers not on that list that I wonder if they have been ordained at all. Its like watching one of those hypnotist shows with lots of stomping your feet while demanding divine favor. A couple of years back a group of ministers confronted TBN over this, Paul Crouch(owner of TBN) responded with a divine curse placed on them for trying to stop the worldwide spread of the Gospel.

Does anyone know if TBN requires payment for airtime? or a portion of whats sent in? Anyways Im Reformed, but find ETWN a much better station

 

[CLearthinking04]

Back in the 90’s they used to be more direct about asking for money. I can remember Robert Tilton saying point blank “Send me a thousand dollars and get your seed faith miracle”.

Today, overall they had to fine tune their presentation a little after a great deal of their questionable messages were exposed. (Ex; 60 Minutes & 20/20 Specials on Tilton and Benny Hinn). Now they are just a little more clever but it is still easy to see through it, thank God.

I am deeply concerned as a couple of Sunday’s ago I was flipping through the channels and there were four evangelical programs all based on raking in money.

However the tradegy goes deeper than this. What about these poor people, some of them have little money themselves giving to a ministry that is aparently based on making the organization rich and building bigger cathedrals. They probably really believe they are following God. I can remember the old couple on 60 minutes that gave their life savings to Tilton only to find out he is a fraud. What do they do now? What a way to have your faith crushed at the end of your life!

It’s sad

Byron

 

[KarenNC]

**Karen, that looks like an old group(at least some of them had some schooling). **

Could be. We don’t have either an antenna or cable access, so I am not up on what’s offered on TV these days. I was going on ones I could think of.

**TBN has a number of ‘name and claim it’ preachers not on that list that I wonder if they have been ordained at all. **

Here’s the line up I found on the TBN website ( I used the list of teaching shows listed on the poll they offered):

Billy Graham, Bishop Fulton Sheen and Robert Schuller are included. Many of the rest appear to be entertainers or pastors of some of the non-denominational “megachurches.” It is entirely possible in that culture to set oneself up as a minister without formal religious training in any denomination. You earn the title by the fact that you preach and that you lead the church, or you may earn it in internship with another pastor. In my opinion a lot of these are primarily cults of personality around a charismatic preacher. It is not uncommon to see even enormous churches with lots of assistant pastors can quickly collapse if the minister dies, retires or is associated with some scandal.

If you go to the TBN website and look up the specific program, you will usually be given a link to the website of the host, so that you can find out more.

** Its like watching one of those hypnotist shows with lots of stomping your feet while demanding divine favor. A couple of years back a group of ministers confronted TBN over this, Paul Crouch(owner of TBN) responded with a divine curse placed on them for trying to stop the worldwide spread of the Gospel.**

Have to say I’m not terribly surprised.

Does anyone know if TBN requires payment for airtime? or a portion of whats sent in? Anyways Im Reformed, but find ETWN a much better station

Here’s at least a little info about it from 2004http://www.ministrywatch.org/mw2.1/pdf/MWDA_031204.pdf
You can google “funding Trinity Broadcasting Network” to see what else is out there.

 

[BrianH]

Here’s what I could find about the affiliations of a variety of televangelists, though I only looked at names I had heard. There are probably others.

Jerry Falwell—ordained Baptist minister
Oral Roberts --raised and ordained Pentecostal Holiness, became Methodist later on
Billy Graham —ordained Baptist minister
Pat Robertson – ordained Baptist minister
Charles Coughlin (radio evangelist of early 20th century)–Roman Catholic
Peter Popoff–unclear if he has an affiliation
Jim Bakker --Assembly of God
Jimmy Swaggart --Assembly of God
Benny Hinn – International Council of Faith Churches and ministers
Kenneth Copeland–unclear
Kenneth Hagin–Assemblies of God
Kathryn Kulman --Baptist, ordained by Evangelical Church Alliance
Rex Humbard – ordained by his father
Morris Cerullo --Assembly of God
Marilyn Hickey --appears connected to Assembly of God
James Robison–unclear
Jack Van Impe - unclear
Robert Tilton – unclear
Charles Stanley – Baptist
Fulton Sheen (20th century) --Roman Catholic
Robert Schuller – Reformed Church in America
Ernest Angley – raised Baptist, unclear if ordained
James Kennedy – Presbyterian

Most of these people(well about half do) do not adhere to the prosperity gospel. It should be noted as well that several have been disfellowshiped from their denominations like Swaggart.
I just hope we can be accurate. Some of these people NEVER ask for money.

 

[KarenNC]

Most of these people(well about half do) do not adhere to the prosperity gospel. It should be noted as well that several have been disfellowshiped from their denominations like Swaggart.
I just hope we can be accurate. Some of these people NEVER ask for money.

They are televangelists (or in the case of Coughlin, radio, as TV was not in popular usage). They may or may not subscribe to prosperity theology, though many of them certainly do.

Which of these never ask for money (a love offering, sales of materials, etc)? I admit I have not heard all of them preach (though I have heard a great number of them over the years) but I have never encountered an evangelist who did not do so.