Tell me that I'm not alone

[YAQUBOS]

Grace and Peace!

Cherub:

Real Christian? Real born again Christians? FRUIT?

Anyway, wearing medals is not for a sign. The Miraculous Medal of the Blessed Virgin Mary, for example, is an ongoing devotion. While it is worn, it is a perpetual request for the intercession of Mary who was conceived without sin. A saint medal is a perpetual request for the prayers of that saint, etc… Medals are not like bumper stickers or football jerseys.

You mean medals are new idols?

Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Grace to you!

jrabs:

I also think you are missing the point about signs and medals. My Brown Scapular and Miraculous Medal occasionally slip out from under my shirt for people to question. I am not wearing them to show people I am Catholic, I am wearing them as my devotion to the Blessed Mother and my faith.

But the attacks of the devil started to hit me harder when I started wearing the Brown Scapular. I think it is to be expected - the enemy hates when we step up our devotion and show our faith.

Well, let’s forget about superstitions, and come to the essential…
You say you are not wearing them to show people, but for devotion. Well, how wearing medals is a way of devotion?

Love†

 

[YAQUBOS]

Grace to you!

I gave an example of sign by which people knew that the Apostles were with Jesus.

Here is also the same sign, but in a larger sense:

“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” ( John 13:35 )

Now imagine a Catholic wearing a medal and saying bad things about another Christian… a protestant for example…

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[puzzleannie]

I don’t have bumper stickers but that is because my husband hates them and what they do to car. I do have a small rosary on my rearview mirror, but it is to help me avoid road rage. I have a magnetic OL Guadalupe, very colorful, holographic, that I put on the tailgate of my truck when we cross over to Mexico with our church group carrying comidas, clothing, gifts etc.for the residents in colonias there. I have never been stopped and searched at the border unless I forget to ask her help. She always gets us the green light.

I don’t wear anything around my neck, jewelry, chains, scapular because my skin is extremely sensitive and no matter what it is I break out in a few hours in hives that lead to infection and scars.

I find it much harder to wear my faith in my hands, feet, thoughts, and especially my mouth, James is right, most sins come out of the mouth. For me, custody of my uncharitable thoughts and words is much, much harder, much more of a discipline. I hope anyone who knows me or meets me will come to know my faith by my words and actions, because that is how my Lord is going to judge me.

My faith is on my key chain-rosary ring, stations card, St. Benedict medal–I always like to be prepared.

REQUIRED reading for all of us on these forums should be the CA books on How Not to Evangelize and Search & Rescue. No one is going to be saved by confrontational, triumphal, we’re right and your wrong pronouncements. Jesus converted with love and service, and so must we.

 

[csr]

I think wearing an external sign brings with it special benefits and obligations. I don’t presently do it, myself. During one period I was wearing my crucifix on the outside of my shirt. A beggar in the subway asked me for a quarter, and I curtly passed him by. He said, “Ok, God bless you.” He was quite sincere and not at all mocking, although surely he had seen the crucifix. It was clearly a lesson for me: Mr. Catholic couldn’t spare a quarter for a bum. Maybe he doesn’t know Our Lord all that well, either.

Wearing an external sign is like asking for a cross to bear. They are signs of contradiction to others. Protestants are contradicted by our signs accepting the doctrine of intercession and by our use of the crucifix, as they have abandoned much and more. Protestantism is apostasy, or falling away, and those who fall find it hard to get up. There is always pride of life. Those who don’t believe much of anything are also contradicted by our signs. To wear an external sign is to be much closer to being called to behave very astutely at all times. Not that we shouldn’t if we don’t, but you’ll be called on that symbol, daily. If the battles are just catfights, that in itself is a cross to bear: to behave in an upright way in the face of trivial behavior. You can’t remain long in a private shell of personal thought when you’re wearing an external symbol.

The monk’s habit, the priest’s collar, the nun’s habit: these are all indications to the world of a stance adopted, a vow taken, a love accepted. The religious have the benefit of a total life arrangement. But their external wear is a critical symbol to others. A monk or priest is known to be uninterested in women and uninterested in profit. This makes them more credible in trying to bring about conversions and change to life. But lay people are in the world. People aren’t really sure what vow you’ve taken when you wear a symbol. Some lay people do take vows of different kinds.

St. Louis de Montfort discourages us from asking for crosses: “Third. Certain holy and distinguished persons have been asking for and seeking, or even, by eccentricities, bringing upon themselves, crosses, disdain and humiliation. Let us simply adore and admire the extraordinary workings of the Holy Spirit in these souls. Let us humble ourselves in the presence of this sublime virtue, without making any attempt to reach such heights, for compared with these racing eagles and roaring lions we are simply fledglings and cubs” (§44 of “Friends of the Cross”). From that you can see that wearing externals, which clearly encourage disdain and humiliation, qualifies as a rather advanced spiritual practice, in some sense, so that it is not just nothing to wear them outwardly. God Who knows our hearts can see what we wear privately: my crucifix is one of my signs of commitment to God, and I wear a Rosary ring which almost nobody can recognize. These things remind me of the faith I profess, and they show God and the saints that I am serious. It is no good to caricature such things: we show each other, as well, that we are serious, in our gestures and other commitments.

And of course we must pray for the spartan and deathly apostate, eschewing all of the beautiful things of our holy religion. We do things because our commitment: our prayers, our efforts are part of the economy of salvation: we are the Church Militant.

 

[mtr01]

YAQUBOS:

Grace to you!

Well, let’s forget about superstitions, and come to the essential…
You say you are not wearing them to show people, but for devotion. Well, how wearing medals is a way of devotion?

Love†

Do you keep pictures of your family in your wallet? On the walls of your house? If so, are they idols? Or do you do it so that sometimes during the day you can look at them and be reminded of the people in the pictures?

It’s the same thing.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

mtr01:

Do you keep pictures of your family in your wallet? On the walls of your house? If so, are they idols? Or do you do it so that sometimes during the day you can look at them and be reminded of the people in the pictures?

It’s the same thing.

Well, it seems that you don’t want to answer my question. I asked how that is DEVOTION.

If I put a picture of my family on the wall, I don’t put it as devotion. I put it to remember, as you say.

And the pictures about the life of Jesus are the same thing in a way, and not the same thing in another:

1. The same thing, as they help us remember some events or facts in the life of Jesus.
2. Not the same, because no one is painting the real picture of Jesus, because no one knows how Jesus was.

I don’t think you burn incense before your mother’s picture at home…

We know Jesus in the Spirit. And the only devotion is in the Spirit. Jesus says:

“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” ( John 4:24 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Teresa9]

Dearest Yaqubos

Your point is relevant, in this since, that a medal or a crucifix, should not become a point of idolatry, but that is NEVER how they are used. They are worn in love, they are a visible devotion. When a scapular is worn, the Priest blesses the first one (subsequent ones do not need to be blessed when the old one has worn out) at this blessing he not only blesses the scapular but blesses it’s ‘devotion’ . This is worn for a reason, not only to remind us of who we love, it is not just as simplistic as this, but is a mental, within the heart and spirit and outward committment by the person who wears it of devotion to Jesus and Mary etc.

It is good and right to have statues, crucifixes, crosses, light candles, pray before them (not to statue etc) to create a visible symbol of devotion, towards which our love flows and we know Jesus loves us. No-one has ever made an image of God our Father because he is a Spirit, but Christ Jesus was a flesh and blood man as well as God in all sense of His divinity, Mary was without sin and the Mother of God, we make images of them and from various Church approved apparitions we have a reasonable idea of what they look like, therefore it is good and right to make such images to remind us of our devotion, to show our love to dedicate and devote ourselves and our lives to Jesus and to bring Him into the centre of our homes. There is no harm in having these items, infact there is every good in having them, or our Catholic churches and churches of other Christian denomination would be stripped bare of them and no visible reminder would be made present for the faithful to view.

Furthermore for example at the Anointing of the Sick it is necessary for a crucifix to be present as also when Mass takes place, it is most powerful in reminding us of Christ’s unending sacrifice. A rosary ring or a rosary is a item that assists prayer and is in no way idolatrous

If indeed we were to strip away all images of Christ Jesus and Mary, we would be losing the reminders and sacred objects that fortify our faiths. It is in no way compulsory that every Christian or Catholic possess any of these objects, but some do because it strengthens and enhances faith. The Church does for this reason also and is a veneration of our Beloved Saviour and His and our Mother Mary, as it is also to our saints.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Grace to you!

Dear Teresa, thank you for your really interesting reply. Just allow me to give some comments, always remembering that ONLY God is the Truth, and His Word is truth.

Teresa9:

Dearest Yaqubos

Your point is relevant, in this since, that a medal or a crucifix, should not become a point of idolatry, but that is NEVER how they are used.

I saw people burning incense before a cross or a picture… And they go to the church…Even priests…

Teresa9:

They are worn in love, they are a visible devotion. When a scapular is worn, the Priest blesses the first one (subsequent ones do not need to be blessed when the old one has worn out) at this blessing he not only blesses the scapular but blesses it’s ‘devotion’ .

This is what I am asking: how is this a visible devotion, while Christian worship is in spirit and truth? Do we have to make idols like pagans?

Teresa9:

This is worn for a reason, not only to remind us of who we love, it is not just as simplistic as this, but is a mental, within the heart and spirit and outward committment by the person who wears it of devotion to Jesus and Mary etc.

Well, this is what is called idolatry. Pagans also didn’t make idols because they believed that those idols are just gods in themselves. But they believed that the idol is a representation of the god they worship:

"After quieting the crowd, the town clerk said, “Men of Ephesus, what man is there after all who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of the image which fell down from heaven?” ( Acts 19:35 )

The image which fell down from heaven…

Teresa9:

It is good and right to have statues, crucifixes, crosses, light candles, pray before them (not to statue etc) to create a visible symbol of devotion, towards which our love flows and we know Jesus loves us. No-one has ever made an image of God our Father because he is a Spirit, but Christ Jesus was a flesh and blood man as well as God in all sense of His divinity

The Bible says that Jesus is the image of the invisible God. So there is no other image of God then Jesus.

But, of course, having pictures representing some events or facts in the life of Jesus is not idolatry, unless people make them objects of devotion and prayer and burning incense before them.

Teresa9:

Furthermore for example at the Anointing of the Sick it is necessary for a crucifix to be present as also when Mass takes place, it is most powerful in reminding us of Christ’s unending sacrifice.

And what is the Bread and Wine? Why did Jesus call us to do them? Isn’t that for remembrence of His death? Well, it seems that you think we need more things to remember…

Teresa9:

If indeed we were to strip away all images of Christ Jesus and Mary, we would be losing the reminders and sacred objects that fortify our faiths. It is in no way compulsory that every Christian or Catholic possess any of these objects, but some do because it strengthens and enhances faith.

Well, according to the Bible, Faith doesn’t need to see in order to believe:

“Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” ( Hebrews 11:1 )

The Lord be with you!

Yaqubos†

theophilus_agape@hotmail.com

 

[mtr01]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

Well, it seems that you don’t want to answer my question. I asked how that is DEVOTION.

It is a symbol of devotion. One wears a medal as a sign of their devotion, to always keep the object of their devotion in mind. The devotion is not the wearing of a medal per se.

YAQUBOS:

If I put a picture of my family on the wall, I don’t put it as devotion. I put it to remember, as you say.

Would you say that you were devoted to your husband or wife (whichever the case may be)? Are you devoted to your parents or children? Looking at the picture reminds you of that devotion, just as wearing the medal reminds the Catholic of their devotion, as we don’t have photos of Jesus or Mary that we can carry around in our wallets.

YAQUBOS:

And the pictures about the life of Jesus are the same thing in a way, and not the same thing in another:

1. The same thing, as they help us remember some events or facts in the life of Jesus.

Exactly

YAQUBOS:

1. Not the same, because no one is painting the real picture of Jesus, because no one knows how Jesus was.

I don’t see how this relates to anything.

YAQUBOS:

I don’t think you burn incense before your mother’s picture at home…

That’s because I don’t worship my mother. Besides, if I want to talk to my mother, I can just call her on the phone, or I can get in the car and visit with her. If Jesus or Mary was alive, and I wanted to talk to them, I wouldn’t have to pray either.

YAQUBOS:

We know Jesus in the Spirit. And the only devotion is in the Spirit. Jesus says:

“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” ( John 4:24 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

This does not contradict any Catholic devotion. Again, the wearing of medals is not the devotion per se. Like photos, they simply remind us of the object of our devotion.

There is a parallel, the wearing of crosses and crucifixes. We do this to help us remember Christ’s sacrifice for us on the cross. Yet I have yet to hear anyone claim that we are actually worshipping the cross or crucifix as an idol.

I hope this clears up your misunderstanding. Pax Vobiscum.

 

[MysticaAngel]

Happy2bcatholic:

Tell me that I’m not alone in this, please. Thanks. Share with me your story if you could.

But maybe I bring it own myself. Here is another take at this. Some say never put a pro-life bumper sticker on your car because others will be mad at you and you will not know why and if you don’t put the bumper sticker on then others might be more open to you and get to know the Lord through you in an indirect way.

It just makes me wonder. My mouth and my zeal for wearing medals gets me in trouble - stupid trouble - not real trouble. I’m not boiled in oil thank God or chewed up by lions. Just things are more sticky. Maybe I should just not mention that I’m pro-life and wear my medals inside my shirt. It seems that if I conform more then maybe people will give me more credit but once they see my true colors then maybe not. So I just cut to the chase up front and well you know the rest. I don’t know. Any thoughts? Thanks.

You are not alone; I live and work in a very anti-family, anti-Christian, liberal environment and sometimes I feel I cannot openly display any expression of my preference for a prolife candidate or my faith because to do so where I live and work invites vehement reaction. I feel like sometime I want to “fight back” and invite a “fight” by openly displaying either a pin, shirt or bumper sticker that I know will “instigate” a reaction. So oftentimes, out of fear of “man” and other times because I think maybe I want the “glory” of standing up for myself I remain silent. I do not have a bumper sticker on my car or wear religious medals unless it’s my day off from work. I try to witness my faith by example but I often feel I am letting God down by not being more of a witness to those who need to hear the Gospel of Life/Jesus Christ.

 

[Strider]

I have two large pro-life bumper stickers on the back of my car. I have gotten odd or even angry stares, but nothing worse. No one has keyed the car, yet, and they’ve been there a couple of years.
I also wear a 3" Benedictine pectoral crucifix outside my shirt. I have received glares, but it has also allowed me to begin some conversations with people what would have not otherwise been possible.
This is going to sound wierd, but the one time I did not wear it in public, I was rebuked in a miraculous way. That’s much more than I can get into here, but since then’ I’ve worn it every day.
To YAQUBOS, I would say this: my bumper stickers are not a devotion, but a political statement arising from religious conviction. I wear my crucifix because I am devoted to Jesus Christ and His Church and it is often a difficult thing to do; something I’d rather not do and a way that draws often unwanted attentiion to myself. But I take up my cross daily and follow him Mt 16:24.
God bless

 

[Teresa9]

Dearest Yaqubos

Mtr01 and Strider have answered you exactly how I would also reply to your statements. Dear Friend, it would be easier to hide our faith without any visible manifestation of it, be it actions, words or wearing a visible crucifix, medal or scapular. Frequently throughout the day I have to readjust my scapular as they move because they are a sash in all affect around the neck, frequently it tangles with my crucifix and I need to straighten it again, it reminds me when I do this to keep my ‘self’ straight with the Lord. Dear friend they are NOT points of idolatory and this is ALWAYS confused when someone sees no point in religious objects. But someone walking in my home has NO doubt I am Christian, they have only have to glance me on the street and see my crucifix and they KNOW I am Christian.

Sometimes for this fact people have tried to take advantage of me, sometimes they don’t seem too impressed and sometimes there is no reaction and sometimes it sparks conversation about God with a total stranger who otherwise may have not spoken of God with me otherwise. So now should Priests relinquish their robes and nuns their crucifixes and habits because it is too open a proclamation of love and devotion to Christ and maybe they are slipping into idolatry??? No-one is saying rush out and buy a crucifix , it is a personal choice, but I find when I pray with my eyes upon a crucifix, of a picture of the Sacred heart of Jesus or a picture of Mary our Mother or statue, my mind is deepend to the whole of their lives and the suffering and sacrifice for my small and insignificant life.

For me this is a ‘non-debate’ because it is clear from the Pope’s staff that has a crucifix upon it that this is a good and wholesome thing to do, to remind us often of our Beloved Saviour, if His image is readily before us, He is less likely in all situations to fall from our hearts and minds.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you always xxx
Teresa xxx

 

[hermit]

Why the emphasis on externals? Jesus said, “Not everyone who says Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven.”

St Francis of Assisi said “Preach the gospel and use words if you must.”

 

[puzzleannie]

correct me if I am wrong, this was a lot to wade through, but isn’t the original question about suffering as the result of witnessing our faith? Wearing visible signs of that faith such as medals, crucifixes, or labeling our surroundings in some way to make a political or moral statement of belief-bumper stickers, pictures etc. - may be devotions, editorial comments, or superstitions, depending on the person and the circumstances. They may or may not be witnessing the faith.

Your words and actions had better be in sync with your non-verbal cues like your medals and crosses, or you are doing more damage than good by wearing them.

Now back to our regular program–have you ever suffered, particularly at work, because you profess and act on your Catholic faith?

I was a senior staff member of a large midwestern non-profit org whose leadership decided to form an alliance with various gay rights groups for a certain purpose. I can’t say more without identifying a lot of people in what became a highly publicized situation. My position forced me to get to know on a professional and personal level, over an extended period of time, a lot of gay men and women, which is a good thing, and has led to some enduring friendships. And I am glad to say, put me in a position to gently but firmly, in appropriate ways and settings, clearly state the truth about this “lifestyle”, in ways that have benefitted people I care about. But it also forced me to deal daily, more deeply than anyone would ever care to, in the murky, disgusting, debilitating, destructiveness of that “lifestyle”, and to witness damage it did and does to people I came to care deeply about.

Our local bishop protested vigorously over the stand taken by my organization, and called me in for clarification–and for pastoral care, which I badly needed. I accepted his clear teaching and direction, which other Catholics more prominent than I in the organization did not. I helped make his message known and listened to, if not respected, to the leadership, and then resigned. In the bishop’s judgement, and I concurred, our organization stepped over the line of amicable working relationship for a specific cause, to actively promoting and endorsing a particular political agenda (which is against the tax codes we work under) and a particular “lifestyle” to the detriment of our common cause, and as has proved, of our organization.

Long story, but a lot of people can suffer when one person does not stand up for the faith. I may say I have retained a measure of friendship and influence for the good over some involved in this situation because I did so, but lost my job, and for all intents and purposes my profession. I am unemployable in my field. More important, I had young people, grad students under my direction, depending on me for professional guidance, and for moral since some were Catholics, and I could see no other way to act. No regrets.

 

[Teresa9]

Thank you for returning the thread to the subject matter of the thread puzzleannie

God Bless you and much peace and love to you xx

 

[YAQUBOS]

Grace to you!

Thank you everyone, because you clarified that the cross or the signs are just SYMBOLS of your devotion, although Teresa said in a previous reply that it is MORE than just a symbol.

So as they are just symbols of what you believe, I don’t think you will burn incense before those symbols like pagans, but you will just use them as they are created to be used: AS SYMBOLS.

Thank you again for the clarification.

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Bonnie]

Recently I wore some catholic medicals around my neck and a client at work stared at me like as if he really didn’t like me.

I wouldn’t make that assumption unless he said he didn’t like you. He could have had an upset tummy or maybe his face is just made that way. I’m often asked if I’m feeling ok - apparently I look like I’m at death’s door!

 

[Teresa9]

Dearest Friend

I did not say they are more tahn a symbol, if you are referring to my usage of the word devotion, yes they are devotions. It is an outward symbol of the devotion made when donning the item, i.e. a scapular.
You are invested with a scapular when it is blessed, this is a sincere undertaking that is not merely the wearing of an object that is religious due to it being blessed, but there are certain devotions to fulfil once you undertake to wear it such as saying the rosary, living a certain lifestyle…all done with a devotion to whoever the scapular is devoted to once you wear it.

Take a look at this site in respect of the wearing of scapulars and it may well explain it better than I can do. I hope this makes things clear and that I do not superstiously wear a religious item deeming it will buy me a seat in Heaven, because without my intentions and my life meeting with the seriousness of it’s undertaking, it certainly will not.

catholic-church.org/apcarmel/scapular.htm

As I don’t want to argue over this point, I hope you understand where I am coming from in trying to say that they are not just a symbol in this case as the wearing of one means that the heart is in accordance with it’s conditions of wearing it, but are also an outward symbol of devotion. They are a sign of what is held in the heart and spirit.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa xx