Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[Sunstone]

Why today? Were they something different before?

That’s okay; sometimes jargon serves a purpose.

There’s an argument that Mormons have changed on these matters over the years. The article I linked to gets into this argument.

 

[BartBurk]

I would say that if what Esdra wrote about the LDS – that they believe each person of the Trinity is a separate God – is true then the Mormons have departed farther from traditional Christianity than the JW’s. Because the JW’s are radical monotheists whereas it appears the Mormons are polytheists.

And yet the Book of Mormon seems to be either Modalistic or Trinitarian. They probably understand how God is one about as well as we do as Catholics. Many try to limit the Godhead’s oneness to being the same in purpose, but I have heard others go much further than that. The big question is whether they believe God the Father had a Father so I don’t think the main issue is their understanding of Father, Son and Holy Ghost as much as it is their understanding of whether there were Gods previous to our God. Most of them would say there were – that is their big heresy, not their understanding of the Godhead itself. The Book of Mormon is fairly orthodox in its treating of the Godhead and does not proclaim any other Gods exist.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You know what I can’t wrap my head around. Joe Smith shows up with who Crowley? Around what early 1800’s?

He claims he had a vision from God and God was actually two beings. God the Father and Jesus right? BTW If I’m wrong please correct me

And he then claims that God, wanted him to lead the “true” Church of God. And a couple of the Apostles appeared also right? Peter was one, and a couple others.

Well if this is so, then why would the Appartitions of Zeitune Egypt witnessed by 1/4 million with confirrmed Miracles and Healings be difficult to believe.

Now, I can assure you, there are many people who claim and indeed may have had a vision from God. Most of them its only rooted deeper in the Catholic Faith. St Padre Pio is a perfect example. Stigmata…for years.

 

[BartBurk]

I’d say you came close when you said that the Light or Spirit uses whatever religious tool is at hand to speak to believers. It sounded very much like an “all paths lead to God” type of sentiment.

Which is fine – you have the right to believe whatever you like – but it’s a mindview I have a hard time accepting because it disregards the differences in content in the various religions and I do think it’s a form of agnosticism. Just my take. I hope we can have a friendly conversation about our differences of opinion without it getting personal.

May God bless you abundantly!

Perhaps a better way of saying it is there is one path that leads to God through Jesus Christ and we are all at various places on the path. Granted there are some who may not be on the path at all, but I don’t believe that applies to anyone who is trying to follow Jesus Christ.

 

[zerinus]

I certainly am thinking about that. Both the chapter I have suggested as well as the one Zerinius pointed to seem to be very specific. They also seem to sound a little too much like a rehash of the New Testament. I don’t know why God would be so specific with Nephi when he wasn’t this specific with other Old Testament prophets.

We think that He was, but a lot of that information has been lost from the Bible. For example, the Book of Mormon mentions two OT prophets by the names of Zenos and Zenock who were very specific about Jesus Christ, but who are no longer found in the Bible. The Book of Moses contains many references pointing to how detailed a knowledge the ancients had, starting from Adam down, about Jesus and His future ministry on the earth. The Book of Mormon also has an account of a very remarkable vision that the Brother of Jared of Jesus, which would have taken not long after the Flood, and the fact that the Jaredites had considerable knowledge of Jesus and His ministry on earth. We think that a lot of this information has simply not survived in the Bible.

Of course being specific would have been the only way that people in the Americas would have been ready for the coming of Christ to them after his resurrection since they didn’t experience his ministry in Israel.

That is a valid observation, thank you.

 

[GaryTaylor]

And yet the Book of Mormon seems to be either Modalistic or Trinitarian. They probably understand how God is one about as well as we do as Catholics. Many try to limit the Godhead’s oneness to being the same in purpose, but I have heard others go much further than that. The big question is whether they believe God the Father had a Father so I don’t think the main issue is their understanding of Father, Son and Holy Ghost as much as it is their understanding of whether there were Gods previous to our God. Most of them would say there were – that is their big heresy, not their understanding of the Godhead itself. The Book of Mormon is fairly orthodox in its treating of the Godhead and does not proclaim any other Gods exist.

I assure you, this is clearly drilled into ones head “before” they recieve the Sacrament of Confession.

And I clearly understand how this may be an issue at the on-set if engaging the Catholic Faith.

Yet to debate intricates of the Catholic Faith when your taking such a leap of faith with Smith and Crowley to begin with. Is simply baffling.

We’ve debated one verse in Luke for months here, to no avail. How is this lack ability to grasp truth so elusive at this point. Yet its OK to jump to conclusions with ones vision?

This “is” the point I can’t grasp. Logic won’t allow me to go here. What else is there to signify reality and truth?

In the Catholic Faith theres the Bible dating thousands of years back interpreted by close to 2000 years worth of Seminary scholars like Jerome, Erasmus etc. Apparitions witnessed by thousands confirmed by miracles of healing which can’t be explained by physicians who were there and witnessed it. Incorruptables, Visions, Stigmata, and on and on. But by all means, lets not believe this?

 

[zerinus]

… if something that claims to be divine scripture is simply made up I call that a hoax.

You had better be certain that it is “made up,” otherwise you could be the one who is suffering from a bad “hoax”.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We think that He was, but a lot of that information has been lost from the Bible. For example, the Book of Mormon mentions two OT prophets by the names of Zenos and Zenock who were very specific about Jesus Christ, but who are no longer found in the Bible. The Book of Moses contains many references pointing to how detailed a knowledge the ancients had, starting from Adam down, about Jesus and His future ministry on the earth. The Book of Mormon also has an account of a very remarkable vision that the Brother of Jared of Jesus, which would have taken not long after the Flood, and the fact that the Jaredites had considerable knowledge of Jesus and His ministry on earth. We think that a lot of this information has simply not survived in the Bible.

That is a valid observation, thank you.

Well we also have the The Book of Mary Magdeline, the book of St John, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Apocrypha included in the Vulgate and accepted in the Catholic and Orthodox canon yet rejected by Protestants?

So I mean what does this say really?

 

[zerinus]

If that person (the hypothetical lapsed Catholic converting to LDS) were my friend I would try to share with them as tactfully as possible the feelings I have expressed in my above posts. Because I believe them to be true and based on reality.

I think in this life it’s important to take a stand for God but that doesn’t mean that the content of any given belief system is unimportant, or equivalent. Heresies are heresies. I don’t know which ones the Mormons are teaching but clearly the JW movement is a revival of arianism.

This thread is about Mormonism, not JWs; why do you keep bringing them into it? If you don’t know enough about Mormonism, go and learn so that you can make a contribution; otherwise why waste everybody’s time with comments about the JWs?

 

[tomarin]

Perhaps a better way of saying it is there is one path that leads to God through Jesus Christ and we are all at various places on the path. Granted there are some who may not be on the path at all, but I don’t believe that applies to anyone who is trying to follow Jesus Christ.

I’m more narrow-minded than you. I think if the core beliefs of a religion fall outside of traditional orthodox Christianity (JW’s, LDS) then they are in serious error and on the wrong path altogether.

Or let me put it this way: I think it was Hilaire Beloc who said there was no such thing as a new heresy. The followers of these “new”-ish American religions are in the same boat as those heretical Christian movements from the early days of Christianity such as the Cathars and the Arians.

 

[zerinus]

How did God the Son create the world? Is that in text?

We believe that Jesus created all things under the direction of the Father. That is taught in the Bible as well as LDS Scripture.

 

[BartBurk]

I’m more narrow-minded than you. I think if the core beliefs of a religion fall outside of traditional orthodox Christianity (JW’s, LDS) then they are in serious error and on the wrong path altogether.

Or let me put it this way: I think it was Hilaire Beloc who said there was no such thing as a new heresy. The followers of these “new”-ish American religions are in the same boat as those heretical Christian movements from the early days of Christianity such as the Cathars and the Arians.

And I believe in the scripture in John 12:32 in which Christ is quoted as follows:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

I don’t think I’m in a position to question how He does that.

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

I did not even know what a Mormon was until 2 years ago. (I live in a Catholic dominating Country, Praise God!)

I dont know whats worse Islam or LDS!

We think that He was, but a lot of that information has been lost from the Bible.

What? Cared to explain more?

The Bible was created by the Catholic Church, it did not just appear, nor as scripture ever been lost from the bible.

the Book of Mormon mentions two OT prophets by the names of Zenos and Zenock who were very specific about Jesus Christ, but who are no longer found in the Bible.

Because these two OT prophets named Zenos and Zenock who apparently gave specific information about the Lord, probably was not in the bible in first place therefore this is why you cannot find them in the Bible.

Zenos and Zenock sound like something out of Star Trek.

A little bit of logic will discredit the Mormon Church.

LDS church founded in 1830 by a MAN named Joseph Smith. Obviously not by Jesus Christ, since he established his church called the Catholic Church which is mainstream Christianity and the gates of hades cannot prevail over this church.

Joseph Smith, was nothing but the puppet of the Devil. Claiming to be a Prophet, only miracle he performed was raising a large cult of brainwashed followers.

 

[tomarin]

You had better be certain that it is “made up,” otherwise you could be the one who is suffering from a bad “hoax”.

On the face of it, it’s easier for me to believe that the claims of historic Christianity are true and those of LDS are not; than the other way around.

 

[LongJourney]

For those who are having trouble figuring out which class of heresies Mormonism falls into, check out Gnosticism. Endless speculation on metaphysical beings, which has no lesson for us on how to live our lives? Emphasis on secret revelation? Sort of difficult to pin down, because it gets so diverse. Everyone claims different doctrines.

 

[zerinus]

Well we also have the The Book of Mary Magdeline, the book of St John, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Apocrypha included in the Vulgate and accepted in the Catholic and Orthodox canon yet rejected by Protestants?

So I mean what does this say really?

We also have the Bible; what does that say? I think all that it says is that some books are true and some are false. But it doesn’t say which is which. You have to go down other routs to find that out.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m more narrow-minded than you. I think if the core beliefs of a religion fall outside of traditional orthodox Christianity (JW’s, LDS) then they are in serious error and on the wrong path altogether.

And you know what bro, you don’t have to think. All one needs to do is read the news. Pretty regular we witness splits of cults from this belief with some charismatic leader who drives the car off the cliff. Last night ID TV had a case of a Mormon who split and turned serial killer with others following. He killed then prayed to Christ? Five murders, five life sentences for him and his brother. How do you think those who followed him are doing today? This right here “is” the problem with sects of beliefs based on fringe theory, which when carefully put under a miroscope doesn’t hold water.

And by all means I"m not being disrespectfull. I can’t comprehend how one comes to believe that Joe Smith in NY gets a vision in the 1800’s and is told to go dig up the “sacred teaching” that were bought to the West in 600-BC? And then follow him? But reject thousands of years of Christology, like Christ talking to Peter as in Matthew 16:18?

Fatima, Zeitoun…not believable? But Joe Smith is?

I mean is it me? I’m trying but I can’t reach scripture , because I just can’t get past Joe Smith?

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

And by all means I"m not being disrespectfull. I can’t comprehend how one comes to believe that Joe Smith in NY gets a vision in the 1800’s and is told to go dig up the “sacred teaching” that were bought to the West in 600-BC? And then follow him? But reject thousands of years of Christology, like Christ talking to Peter as in Matthew 16:18?

Fatima, Zeitoun…not believable? But Joe Smith is?

Tell me about it talk about stupidity.

By the way, can we actually see these “Sacred Teachings” that were brought to the West in 600 BC, what Joseph Smith apparently digged up?

Or did Joseph Smith make another fanciful tale, that after he wrote them they would magically dissapear.!

 

[tomarin]

I mean is it me? I’m trying but I can’t reach scripture , because I just can’t get past Joe Smith?

I think they lost me when I heard the story about Jesus coming to America to convert the Indians.

 

[zerinus]

On the face of it, it’s easier for me to believe that the claims of historic Christianity are true and those of LDS are not; than the other way around.

Then you have a problem, because the claims of Mormonism and that of “historic Christianity” do not contradict, if by “historic Christianity” you mean what the first Christians believed; but if by that you mean the claims of Christianity of three or four hundred years later, then that also does not agree with the claims of the earliest Christianity (or the Bible) either.

Take Trinitarian theology for example; there is no trace of that found in the Bible or in what the earliest Christians believed.