Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,

Here are the words from Joseph Smith about “eighty-five years old”, from a better source than people’s journals since people don’t have a perfect memory when they write in their journal:

Doctrine and Covenants 130:
14 I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:
15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.
16 I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.
17 I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.

As you would be able to be aware, Joseph Smith did die and “thus see his face.” He also saw His face in the Kirtland Temple on April 3, 1836.

As far as the “rising generation” prophecy, as far as I’m concerned we are still in the “rising generation” since we have not yet “built Zion” in its full sense, and the inspiration of the Holy Ghost would have a far different view and understanding of “rising generation” than someone writing in their journal would have.

If you’re implicitly asking when the Second Coming will happen, then I would say a lot still needs to happen in preparation that will fulfill prophecy so who knows–perhaps fifty years away, perhaps more or less, but it is beside the point as I noted that the Savior taught we should always be “ready” and “prepared” for the time of His coming.

It would seem that the church members who wrote in their journal what Smith said would both not be mistaken. They should have known what Smith meant. They heard his very words from his own lips. They wrote what he said. No need to have the Holy Ghost interpret. Smith was their prophet. It was his job to interpret. D&C 130 is quite different from what Smith said in History of the Church.

Smith said this very plainly: I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written–the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old. There is no need to “interpret” or “read” anything into this statement. And it is very different from what was written in the D&C.

If thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man. What does that say? If you live till you are 85 years of age, you will see the face of the Son of Man.

The problem is this: different publications say different things. Smith himself gave different versions of his 1st vision. The lds church makes a habit of reinterpreting what their deceased leaders said. Smith said things plainly and we ought to let him speak for himself. The people who were there understood what he meant. We do not have that benefit.

 

[ParkerD]

It would seem that the church members who wrote in their journal what Smith said would both not be mistaken. They should have known what Smith meant. They heard his very words from his own lips. They wrote what he said. No need to have the Holy Ghost interpret. Smith was their prophet. It was his job to interpret. D&C 130 is quite different from what Smith said in History of the Church.

Smith said this very plainly: I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written–the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old. There is no need to “interpret” or “read” anything into this statement. And it is very different from what was written in the D&C.

If thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man. What does that say? If you live till you are 85 years of age, you will see the face of the Son of Man.

The problem is this: different publications say different things. Smith himself gave different versions of his 1st vision. The lds church makes a habit of reinterpreting what their deceased leaders said. Smith said things plainly and we ought to let him speak for himself. The people who were there understood what he meant. We do not have that benefit.

Yankee Drifter,

If you believe every word that anyone says to you or writes in a journal that you happen to read, that what they quote from someone else is the perfectly remembered quote with no deviation and that there is no such thing as an imperfect memory or imperfect hearing, then you are a unique person in the world. I would be surprised to find anyone in the real world who has that as their foundational belief about hearing a talk or writing down notes from a talk.

As far as the History of the Church Volume 5, here is the larger context of the quotes that were pulled together from different sources (as noted in the preface) that are trying to capture what Joseph Smith said at that time on that day:

"Were I going to
prophesy, I would say the end [of the world] would not come in 1844, 5, or
6, or in forty years. There are those of the rising generation who shall
not taste death till Christ comes.

I was once praying earnestly upon this subject, and a voice said unto

me, “My son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years of age, thou
shalt see the face of the Son of Man.” I was left to draw my own
conclusions concerning this; and I took the liberty to conclude that if I
did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say
whether He will make his appearance or I shall go where He is. I prophesy
in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written–the Son of Man will
not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old. Then
read the 14th chapter of Revelation, 6th and 7th verses–“And I saw
another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to
preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and
kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God and
give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come.” And Hosea, 6th
chapter, After two days, etc.,–2,520 years; which brings it to 1890. The
coming of the Son of Man never will be–never can be till the judgments
spoken of for this hour are poured out: which judgments are commenced.
Paul says, “Ye are the children of the light, and not of the darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief in the night.” It is not the
design of the Almighty to come upon the earth and crush it and grind it to
powder, but he will reveal it to His servants the prophets.

Judah must return, Jerusalem must be rebuilt, and the temple, and

water come out from under the temple, and the waters of the Dead Sea be
healed. It will take some time to rebuild the walls of the city and the
temple, &c.; and all this must be done before the Son of Man will make His
appearance, There will be wars and rumors of wars, signs in the heavens
above and on the earth beneath, the sun turned into darkness and the moon
to blood, earthquakes in divers places, the seas heaving beyond their
bounds; then will appear one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven. But
what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, &c. But the
Son of Man will come as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, which
will be as the light of the morning cometh out of the east.

Choir sang a hymn.

Prayer by W. W. Phelps.

Adjourned at six p. m., until tomorrow morning."

By the way, Joseph Smith never reached the age of eighty-five years old, as I suppose you know.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,

If you believe every word that anyone says to you or writes in a journal that you happen to read, that what they quote from someone else is the perfectly remembered quote with no deviation and that there is no such thing as an imperfect memory or imperfect hearing, then you are a unique person in the world. I would be surprised to find anyone in the real world who has that as their foundational belief about hearing a talk or writing down notes from a talk.

As far as the History of the Church Volume 5, here is the larger context of the quotes that were pulled together from different sources (as noted in the preface) that are trying to capture what Joseph Smith said at that time on that day:

"Were I going to
prophesy, I would say the end [of the world] would not come in 1844, 5, or
6, or in forty years. There are those of the rising generation who shall
not taste death till Christ comes.

I was once praying earnestly upon this subject, and a voice said unto

me, “My son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years of age, thou
shalt see the face of the Son of Man.” I was left to draw my own
conclusions concerning this; and I took the liberty to conclude that if I
did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say
whether He will make his appearance or I shall go where He is. I prophesy
in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written–the Son of Man will
not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old. Then
read the 14th chapter of Revelation, 6th and 7th verses–“And I saw
another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to
preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and
kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God and
give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment is come.” And Hosea, 6th
chapter, After two days, etc.,–2,520 years; which brings it to 1890. The
coming of the Son of Man never will be–never can be till the judgments
spoken of for this hour are poured out: which judgments are commenced.
Paul says, “Ye are the children of the light, and not of the darkness,
that that day should overtake you as a thief in the night.” It is not the
design of the Almighty to come upon the earth and crush it and grind it to
powder, but he will reveal it to His servants the prophets.

Judah must return, Jerusalem must be rebuilt, and the temple, and

water come out from under the temple, and the waters of the Dead Sea be
healed. It will take some time to rebuild the walls of the city and the
temple, &c.; and all this must be done before the Son of Man will make His
appearance, There will be wars and rumors of wars, signs in the heavens
above and on the earth beneath, the sun turned into darkness and the moon
to blood, earthquakes in divers places, the seas heaving beyond their
bounds; then will appear one grand sign of the Son of Man in heaven. But
what will the world do? They will say it is a planet, a comet, &c. But the
Son of Man will come as the sign of the coming of the Son of Man, which
will be as the light of the morning cometh out of the east.

Choir sang a hymn.

Prayer by W. W. Phelps.

Adjourned at six p. m., until tomorrow morning."

By the way, Joseph Smith never reached the age of eighty-five years old, as I suppose you know.

It would seem to me that if one is a true prophet from God his words would not be recorded wrong by different people and thus get confused as to what was actually prophesied and its meaning. God is not a God of confusion, satan is. Nowhere in the Bible do we see any of God’s prophets words getting taken out of context. The prophets warnings were always clear and direct.

Smith prophesied that the saints would gather in Independence, Missouri. It didn’t happen. He prophesied that Patten was to go on a mission in the spring of 1839. Didn’t happen because Patten died. What about when he said the U.S. government was to redress wrongs or be destroyed.

There are others but I can see where this is going. You will find some other explanation. But if one is going to say: “Thus saith the Lord”, it has to come to pass and soon.

 

[JeanMichel]

Parker, every mormon gives the same exact response when they are confronted with the accusation that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. They always say: Look at Jonah! This argument is so old.

First of all, Jonah did not make a mistake; he said exactly what God told him to say (Jonah 3:1). Second, Jonah’s prophecy was not in error, because implied in the prophecy was a condition under which the predicted judgment would not take place. The Ninevites clearly understood what Jonah meant, that their city would be overthrown unless they repented (Jonah 3:5-9).

Nice try Parker, but deflecting the real issue never works. Smith made some false prophecies and I would be happy to discuss this.

Yankee, can you tell me how many prophesies recorded in the Bible have not come to fruition? Or how about how many names of countries, cities, lands, peoples that have no archiological evidence?

What annoyies me so completely with organized religion is the way members fight amongst one another. They use standards of proof that their own relgions fail miserably. Or that demonstrate a degree of ignorance about history that boggles the mind.

Are you at all aware that the early Apostles were completely convinced that Jesus was returning immediately? These were the disciples that were taught everything, but they themselves were wrong in their statements about his return. Does that disprove anything? Of course not, but it should give every Christian pause before they attempt to accuse another brother or sister in Christ that “their” faith is wrong.

Our first and last rule is to love one another; to teach in love; to guide in love, to love; to turn our cheek; and to demonstrate by our words and deeds that we are followers of Christ.

Our own words accuse us on these pages.

 

[Publisher]

Yankee, can you tell me how many prophesies recorded in the Bible have not come to fruition? Or how about how many names of countries, cities, lands, peoples that have no archiological evidence?

What annoyies me so completely with organized religion is the way members fight amongst one another. They use standards of proof that their own relgions fail miserably. Or that demonstrate a degree of ignorance about history that boggles the mind.

Are you at all aware that the early Apostles were completely convinced that Jesus was returning immediately? These were the disciples that were taught everything, but they themselves were wrong in their statements about his return. Does that disprove anything? Of course not, but it should give every Christian pause before they attempt to accuse another brother or sister in Christ that “their” faith is wrong.

Our first and last rule is to love one another; to teach in love; to guide in love, to love; to turn our cheek; and to demonstrate by our words and deeds that we are followers of Christ.

Our own words accuse us on these pages.

Friend, you speak my mind.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee, can you tell me how many prophesies recorded in the Bible have not come to fruition? Or how about how many names of countries, cities, lands, peoples that have no archiological evidence?

What annoyies me so completely with organized religion is the way members fight amongst one another. They use standards of proof that their own relgions fail miserably. Or that demonstrate a degree of ignorance about history that boggles the mind.

Are you at all aware that the early Apostles were completely convinced that Jesus was returning immediately? These were the disciples that were taught everything, but they themselves were wrong in their statements about his return. Does that disprove anything? Of course not, but it should give every Christian pause before they attempt to accuse another brother or sister in Christ that “their” faith is wrong.

Our first and last rule is to love one another; to teach in love; to guide in love, to love; to turn our cheek; and to demonstrate by our words and deeds that we are followers of Christ.

Our own words accuse us on these pages.

The apostles also taught the necessity of defending the faith. They spoke out against false teachings. Christ commanded that we spread His gospel to the world. There is only ONE Gospel. Any other is not of God.

 

[ParkerD]

It would seem to me that if one is a true prophet from God his words would not be recorded wrong by different people and thus get confused as to what was actually prophesied and its meaning.

Yankee Drifter,
Realizing that you may or may not want to have any further explanation about these issues, I’ll respond “just in case” you had wondered.

God allows for imperfect people to do the best they can do in this world where we live, and not get everything perfectly right–including those who wrote down the words of Joseph Smith as best they could remember or had listened.

There actually is a lot to be learned about patience, kindness, tolerance, forgiveness, and discernment by the fact that God works in that way in this world. If He forced people who happened to be writing the words of a prophet or translating the words of a prophet or transcribing those words, then He would be disallowing free will action and disallowing that He does not control us into being perfect. The atonement of Christ is to allow imperfect people to repent, do better, and become perfect through His atoning grace. If we don’t learn to have tolerance and forgiveness and allowance for the imperfections of others, then we surely aren’t “on the right track.”

God is not a God of confusion, satan is. Nowhere in the Bible do we see any of God’s prophets words getting taken out of context. The prophets warnings were always clear and direct.

Satan does indeed desire confusion, contention, control of behavior, mistrust of prophets, mistrust of God, mistrust of the atoning grace of Christ, and mistrust that God could possibly bring about His perfect work through imperfect people. But I think we can do better than to allow that sort of mistrust to dominate our minds.

As JeanMichel noted (thanks!), yes, we do find some understanding taken “out of context” and misapplied, but that was OK–it worked out all right. The prophets weren’t always understood by the people. That was a major message of the Savior to the Pharisees. Also, He reiterated from the teaching of Isaiah that sometimes people would “hear,” but “hear not” (meaning they wouldn’t understand what they were hearing.)

Smith prophesied that the saints would gather in Independence, Missouri. It didn’t happen.

They did for a short time, but didn’t establish the fully desired “Zion”. They were forced out of Missouri. They had received a “contingency promise”, just like the children of Israel received contingency promises in Deuteronomy and Exodus. (Those are commonly understood.) It was somewhat of a similar situation, except that the LDS members weren’t scattered throughout the earth like the house of Israel was scattered when they weren’t faithful to being God’s pure covenant people. The LDS group needed to be chastened and tried.

He prophesied that Patten was to go on a mission in the spring of 1839. Didn’t happen because Patten died.

Elder Patten, an apostle, clearly had a mission to the spirit world where there were many, many souls waiting to hear the restored gospel message and to hear a modern apostle testify of Jesus Christ and of His saving mission and atoning grace.

What about when he said the U.S. government was to redress wrongs or be destroyed?

The state of Missouri’s government did have a messy time during the Civil War, not knowing whether they were for the South or for the North, and instead sending tens of thousands of soldiers to fight on both sides of the War. Missouri was one of the places with more battles than anywhere else during that war. Also, since Missouri was a “slave state”, the government that represented their philosophy was indeed “destroyed” (the Confederacy).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yankee, can you tell me how many prophesies recorded in the Bible have not come to fruition? Or how about how many names of countries, cities, lands, peoples that have no archiological evidence?

What annoyies me so completely with organized religion is the way members fight amongst one another. They use standards of proof that their own relgions fail miserably. Or that demonstrate a degree of ignorance about history that boggles the mind.

Are you at all aware that the early Apostles were completely convinced that Jesus was returning immediately? These were the disciples that were taught everything, but they themselves were wrong in their statements about his return. Does that disprove anything? Of course not, but it should give every Christian pause before they attempt to accuse another brother or sister in Christ that “their” faith is wrong.

Our first and last rule is to love one another; to teach in love; to guide in love, to love; to turn our cheek; and to demonstrate by our words and deeds that we are followers of Christ.

Our own words accuse us on these pages.

It’s more than a stretch to compare Joseph Smith to the Apostles. One was a philandering con artist who fled from state to state, usually from the law.

Just because we’re Christian doesn’t mean we accept any old thing that comes along as as “right”, or, any person who claims to be a prophet as one.

Discussion of these things is not showing a lack of love. It is discussion. Something that can’t happen in this forum any more, apparently. Somebody’s feelers might get hurt at the word “boo”.

 

[JeanMichel]

The apostles also taught the necessity of defending the faith. They spoke out against false teachings. Christ commanded that we spread His gospel to the world. There is only ONE Gospel. Any other is not of God.

Yankee, the question is not whether or not we should defend truth, but the manner in which we do so. Christ was absolutely crystal clear about how we should treat one another. One cannot justify one’s actions by saying, “I am only defending the truth”. If we did do such, we too easily would find ourselves condoning the burning of heritics at the stake again. The way is love and only love.

I agree there is only one God and one Truth. More importantly I believe that all truth comes from the One God. I am led to accept all those who accept Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God as my brother and my sister. This does not mean I accept all their teachings; heck, I don’t even do that with scholars and theologians. Let the Spirit guide for the Holy Spirit is the first and the last arbiter of all truth.

I would ask you to go back and re-read my first edit here and attempt to answer the questions I posed. If you will judge another with certain standard, know that you will be judged by that same standard. I promise you that you do not want to do that; the end will not be pretty.

Teach truth, love truth, lead in truth, but do so as Christ would have us do, in love, compassion, and patience. We are instruments in God’s hands and He is in control of all his children. His will be done at all times and in all places.

 

[JeanMichel]

It’s more than a stretch to compare Joseph Smith to the Apostles. One was a philandering con artist who fled from state to state, usually from the law.

Just because we’re Christian doesn’t mean we accept any old thing that comes along as as “right”, or, any person who claims to be a prophet as one.

Discussion of these things is not showing a lack of love. It is discussion. Something that can’t happen in this forum any more, apparently. Somebody’s feelers might get hurt at the word “boo”.

Rebecca, I support and enjoy good spiritual discussion. I rejoice in talking about God and the truths of the Gospel of Christ. However, I reject completely any “discussion” that conflicts with the example that Christ gave us. We teach in love and patience knowing that we are not what converts another. We plant seeds that the Holy Spirit will reap.

Because we are Christian we live by a higher law. If we do not, we do not follow Christ and I fear the words, “depart from me, I never knew you”. Christ is not concerned about hurting someone’s feelings and that is not why he or anyone else teaches us to love otheres. For discussion’s sake, why do you think he taught us to love one another?

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee, the question is not whether or not we should defend truth, but the manner in which we do so. Christ was absolutely crystal clear about how we should treat one another. One cannot justify one’s actions by saying, “I am only defending the truth”. If we did do such, we too easily would find ourselves condoning the burning of heritics at the stake again. The way is love and only love.

I agree there is only one God and one Truth. More importantly I believe that all truth comes from the One God. I am led to accept all those who accept Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God as my brother and my sister. This does not mean I accept all their teachings; heck, I don’t even do that with scholars and theologians. Let the Spirit guide for the Holy Spirit is the first and the last arbiter of all truth.

I would ask you to go back and re-read my first edit here and attempt to answer the questions I posed. If you will judge another with certain standard, know that you will be judged by that same standard. I promise you that you do not want to do that; the end will not be pretty.

Teach truth, love truth, lead in truth, but do so as Christ would have us do, in love, compassion, and patience. We are instruments in God’s hands and He is in control of all his children. His will be done at all times and in all places.

And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves.And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

John the Baptist called the Pharisees and Sadducees (the religious leaders of his day) “a generation of Vipers” (snakes) (Matt. 3:7). Today, he would be accused of being unloving, unkind, and unchristian.

Standing face to face with these false teachers, Jesus Christ the Son of God, called them “hypocrites”, “blind guides,” "blind, " “whited sepulchers,” “serpents,” and “ye generation of vipers” (Matt. 23:23-34).

Paul publicly exposed those who taught falsely for the sake of the preservation of the Gospel.

Every message, messenger, and method is to be judged according to the Word of God. The church at Ephesus was commended because they had "tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars " (Rev. 2:2). The church at Pergamos was rebuked because they tolerated those that held "the doctrine of Balaam, " and “the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate” (Rev. 2:14,15). It is never right to tolerate false teachers, but they are to be tried by the Word of God, and exposed.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,
Realizing that you may or may not want to have any further explanation about these issues, I’ll respond “just in case” you had wondered.

God allows for imperfect people to do the best they can do in this world where we live, and not get everything perfectly right–including those who wrote down the words of Joseph Smith as best they could remember or had listened.

There actually is a lot to be learned about patience, kindness, tolerance, forgiveness, and discernment by the fact that God works in that way in this world. If He forced people who happened to be writing the words of a prophet or translating the words of a prophet or transcribing those words, then He would be disallowing free will action and disallowing that He does not control us into being perfect. The atonement of Christ is to allow imperfect people to repent, do better, and become perfect through His atoning grace. If we don’t learn to have tolerance and forgiveness and allowance for the imperfections of others, then we surely aren’t “on the right track.”

Satan does indeed desire confusion, contention, control of behavior, mistrust of prophets, mistrust of God, mistrust of the atoning grace of Christ, and mistrust that God could possibly bring about His perfect work through imperfect people. But I think we can do better than to allow that sort of mistrust to dominate our minds.

As JeanMichel noted (thanks!), yes, we do find some understanding taken “out of context” and misapplied, but that was OK–it worked out all right. The prophets weren’t always understood by the people. That was a major message of the Savior to the Pharisees. Also, He reiterated from the teaching of Isaiah that sometimes people would “hear,” but “hear not” (meaning they wouldn’t understand what they were hearing.)

They did for a short time, but didn’t establish the fully desired “Zion”. They were forced out of Missouri. They had received a “contingency promise”, just like the children of Israel received contingency promises in Deuteronomy and Exodus. (Those are commonly understood.) It was somewhat of a similar situation, except that the LDS members weren’t scattered throughout the earth like the house of Israel was scattered when they weren’t faithful to being God’s pure covenant people. The LDS group needed to be chastened and tried.

Elder Patten, an apostle, clearly had a mission to the spirit world where there were many, many souls waiting to hear the restored gospel message and to hear a modern apostle testify of Jesus Christ and of His saving mission and atoning grace.

The state of Missouri’s government did have a messy time during the Civil War, not knowing whether they were for the South or for the North, and instead sending tens of thousands of soldiers to fight on both sides of the War. Missouri was one of the places with more battles than anywhere else during that war. Also, since Missouri was a “slave state”, the government that represented their philosophy was indeed “destroyed” (the Confederacy).

With all due respect Parker, Smith never said in his original prophecy that Patten’s mission was in the “spirit world.” It would be nice if latter day saints would just be honest about these things.

When the Biblical Prophets prophesied what God had told them to tell the people, it came to pass, without any alteration.

The BoM has many serious problems which cannot be excused away. They have to be noted and dealt with. For example: Alma 46: 15 says that believers were called “christians” in 73 B.C. rather than at Antioch (Acts 11:26) after the death of Christ. It is difficult to imagine how anyone could have been labeled christian many decades before Christ was even born. The point is, the BoM has lots of these types of problems and those that conflict the Holy Scriptures, must be dealt with for the preservation of the One True Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think we would respect the lds more if they would just be honest.

 

[ParkerD]

1. With all due respect Parker, Smith never said in his original prophecy that Patten’s mission was in the “spirit world.” It would be nice if latter day saints would just be honest about these things.
2. When the Biblical Prophets prophesied what God had told them to tell the people, it came to pass, without any alteration.
3. The BoM has many serious problems which cannot be excused away. They have to be noted and dealt with. For example: Alma 46: 15 says that believers were called “christians” in 73 B.C. rather than at Antioch (Acts 11:26) after the death of Christ. It is difficult to imagine how anyone could have been labeled christian many decades before Christ was even born. The point is, the BoM has lots of these types of problems and those that conflict the Holy Scriptures, must be dealt with for the preservation of the One True Gospel of Jesus Christ.

I think we would respect the lds more if they would just be honest.

Yankee Drifter,

Thanks for asking for honesty.

1. Since both of my parents have died, I am very much aware that they are able to visit and do indeed visit with my ancestors and others in the spirit world, to teach them and explain the fullness of the gospel to them. The spirit world is a very real “place” with just as much importance as this world for the people there, and the knowledge that they learn about Christ and His atoning grace and gain a greater understanding about repentance and forgiveness and actually take those critical steps so that they are unburdened from their sins from life, is marvelous to me.

It makes sense to me that a modern apostle would abruptly be “sent” on a mission to the spirit world early on after there were modern apostles on the earth. It’s just not something that bothers me at all, since God loves those people just as much, and has just as much interest in their getting knowledge and getting the grace of repentance and forgiveness, as He loves all in this world and desires them to repent and forgive also. Doctrine and Covenants 1:2 says “the voice of the Lord is unto all men,… and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.” Section 114 says Elder Patten was “to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world” along with “twelve others”–and the spirit world is part of “all the world.”

Isaiah was inspired to say “Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken…” (Isaiah 1:2). The spirits in “heaven” can indeed “hear” the message of salvation and redemption, and it is important to them.

All that background for you to understand Elder Patten’s case, is being “honest”.

1. As far as the Bible containing prophecies that “came to pass” in a different way than was expected by the people, an example is that the Savior said:

John 2: 19
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

I think you are aware that the Jews assumed He was talking about the temple in Jerusalem, not the temple of His body.

1. When Joseph Smith received the inspiration to translate the inscription he was seeing into the English word “Christian”, it is not as though that group of “true believers in Christ” was suddenly being called by an English word. We have no idea what the word was in the original language. It means that they came up with a word in their language that had the meaning of “true believer in Christ” and “follower of Christ” and was evidently a single word they used.

The word for “the Christ” means “the Anointed One”, as I assume you are aware. So the English word “Christian” can suitably be understood to mean, “true believers in the Anointed One” or in other words, “true believers in the promised Messiah”, and that can written in different languages and carry a meaning that is that meaning but in another language.

The Old Testament, starting in Genesis and again in many, many citations, says that the house of Israel will be scattered. It should come as no surprise to anyone that that actually did happen (they were scattered), and it should come as no surprise that some of those who were scattered took with them a belief in the “promised Messiah” and could actually pray and get answers from God about what they should do and how they should worship Him and rejoice that He was going to come to earth and be their Savior as well as yours.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,

Thanks for asking for honesty.

1. Since both of my parents have died, I am very much aware that they are able to visit and do indeed visit with my ancestors and others in the spirit world, to teach them and explain the fullness of the gospel to them. The spirit world is a very real “place” with just as much importance as this world for the people there, and the knowledge that they learn about Christ and His atoning grace and gain a greater understanding about repentance and forgiveness and actually take those critical steps so that they are unburdened from their sins from life, is marvelous to me.

It makes sense to me that a modern apostle would abruptly be “sent” on a mission to the spirit world early on after there were modern apostles on the earth. It’s just not something that bothers me at all, since God loves those people just as much, and has just as much interest in their getting knowledge and getting the grace of repentance and forgiveness, as He loves all in this world and desires them to repent and forgive also. Doctrine and Covenants 1:2 says “the voice of the Lord is unto all men,… and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.” Section 114 says Elder Patten was “to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world” along with “twelve others”–and the spirit world is part of “all the world.”

Isaiah was inspired to say “Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the Lord hath spoken…” (Isaiah 1:2). The spirits in “heaven” can indeed “hear” the message of salvation and redemption, and it is important to them.

All that background for you to understand Elder Patten’s case, is being “honest”.

1. As far as the Bible containing prophecies that “came to pass” in a different way than was expected by the people, an example is that the Savior said:

John 2: 19
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

I think you are aware that the Jews assumed He was talking about the temple in Jerusalem, not the temple of His body.

1. When Joseph Smith received the inspiration to translate the inscription he was seeing into the English word “Christian”, it is not as though that group of “true believers in Christ” was suddenly being called by an English word. We have no idea what the word was in the original language. It means that they came up with a word in their language that had the meaning of “true believer in Christ” and “follower of Christ” and was evidently a single word they used.

The word for “the Christ” means “the Anointed One”, as I assume you are aware. So the English word “Christian” can suitably be understood to mean, “true believers in the Anointed One” or in other words, “true believers in the promised Messiah”, and that can written in different languages and carry a meaning that is that meaning but in another language.

The Old Testament, starting in Genesis and again in many, many citations, says that the house of Israel will be scattered. It should come as no surprise to anyone that that actually did happen (they were scattered), and it should come as no surprise that some of those who were scattered took with them a belief in the “promised Messiah” and could actually pray and get answers from God about what they should do and how they should worship Him and rejoice that He was going to come to earth and be their Savior as well as yours.

I am sorry to hear about your parents. Mine also have passed on.

Ecclesiastes tells us that the dead know nothing. God’s Word forbids communication with the dead. Its an abomination before God. The “familiar spirits” which the scriptures talks about are demons who masquerade as dead loved ones. The Bible does not teach that we can return as disembodied spirits. The spirits in scripture are either angels or devils, never humans.

Yes the spirit world is a real place. Have you read Luke 16 about the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus? The beggar is safely in Abraham’s bosom (paradise) and the rich man is in hades and in torment. There’s a great and fixed gulf between them. Meaning one can never cross to the other side. The Bible tells us that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation and those who reject Him, His free gift in this lifetime, will not receive eternal life, but eternal damnation. Christ alone holds the keys to death and hell. (Rev. 1:18)

Now is the day of salvation. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. There is no such thing as universal salvation. One must choose Christ in this life. The Holy Bible says its appointed once for man to die, then the Judgment.

As for the Jews not understanding Jesus, what did Christ say was the reason they could not?

John 8: 43-48

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

True spiritually born again believers in Jesus Christ do indeed understand because we have the Holy Spirit who illuminates God’s Truth.

 

[ParkerD]

I am sorry to hear about your parents. Mine also have passed on.

Ecclesiastes tells us that the dead know nothing.

Yankee Drifter,
I hope you don’t take every word of Ecclesiastes literally without looking for hidden meanings or some poetic meaning that is not literal. The very next phrase says “neither have they any more a reward”. It would seem implausible indeed that as you noted, the Savior spoke about the rich man and Lazarus and yet that He believed that “the dead know nothing.” It would seem implausible that Peter would write about the Savior visiting and preaching to the “spirits in prison” and yet the “dead know nothing.” If the dead don’t “have any more a reward” then that goes against many, many verses in the Bible that say the exact opposite.

God’s Word forbids communication with the dead. Its an abomination before God.

I didn’t write that I was communicating with the dead. I wrote that the dead are communicating among themselves, just like the illustration you gave about the rich man and Lazarus.

Yes the spirit world is a real place. Have you read Luke 16 about the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus? The beggar is safely in Abraham’s bosom (paradise) and the rich man is in hades and in torment. There’s a great and fixed gulf between them. Meaning one can never cross to the other side. The Bible tells us that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation and those who reject Him, His free gift in this lifetime, will not receive eternal life, but eternal damnation. Christ alone holds the keys to death and hell. (Rev. 1:18)

I’m glad to see that you believe that “Christ alone holds the keys to death and hell.” This means that He had a purpose in visiting and teaching the spirits in prison, and that He can indeed unlock the door of hell that you seem to think is so immovably sealed from being unlocked. Why can’t He still love those spirits–would He stop loving them just because they didn’t understand His message in this life?

Now is the day of salvation. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. There is no such thing as universal salvation. One must choose Christ in this life. The Holy Bible says its appointed once for man to die, then the Judgment.

Yes, Now is always the day of salvation–the day of decision is today. The day of decision will always be today, since that is what Christ wants us to do–repent today, not tomorrow–not next year, but today.

As for the Jews not understanding Jesus, what did Christ say was the reason they could not?

John 8: 43-48

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

True spiritually born again believers in Jesus Christ do indeed understand because we have the Holy Spirit who illuminates God’s Truth.

If you’re saying that when the apostles often asked Christ what He meant after He had taught a parable or a teaching to the Jews generally, that because they didn’t understand Him the first time that they were “of your father the devil”, then I certainly disagree.

I’ll point out that the Holy Spirit communicates light and goodness with love, always, and that the fruits of the spirit are indeed taught about by Paul because it is essential that a person who intends to be a follower of Christ, understand those fruits and be living to receive them and that they include those fruits in all their interactions in life–including with people outside of their inner circle.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,
I hope you don’t take every word of Ecclesiastes literally without looking for hidden meanings or some poetic meaning that is not literal. The very next phrase says “neither have they any more a reward”. It would seem implausible indeed that as you noted, the Savior spoke about the rich man and Lazarus and yet that He believed that “the dead know nothing.” It would seem implausible that Peter would write about the Savior visiting and preaching to the “spirits in prison” and yet the “dead know nothing.” If the dead don’t “have any more a reward” then that goes against many, many verses in the Bible that say the exact opposite.

I didn’t write that I was communicating with the dead. I wrote that the dead are communicating among themselves, just like the illustration you gave about the rich man and Lazarus.

I’m glad to see that you believe that “Christ alone holds the keys to death and hell.” This means that He had a purpose in visiting and teaching the spirits in prison, and that He can indeed unlock the door of hell that you seem to think is so immovably sealed from being unlocked. Why can’t He still love those spirits–would He stop loving them just because they didn’t understand His message in this life?

Yes, Now is always the day of salvation–the day of decision is today. The day of decision will always be today, since that is what Christ wants us to do–repent today, not tomorrow–not next year, but today.

If you’re saying that when the apostles often asked Christ what He meant after He had taught a parable or a teaching to the Jews generally, that because they didn’t understand Him the first time that they were “of your father the devil”, then I certainly disagree.

I’ll point out that the Holy Spirit communicates light and goodness with love, always, and that the fruits of the spirit are indeed taught about by Paul because it is essential that a person who intends to be a follower of Christ, understand those fruits and be living to receive them and that they include those fruits in all their interactions in life–including with people outside of their inner circle.

Parker, the one major difference between traditional Christianity and Mormonism is that Christians hold the Holy Bible alone to be the Word of God; the sole source of absolute Truth. Jesus said: “Sanctify them through thy truth; they word is truth.” We must have a standard whereby we test all things to see if they are true or not; if they are of God or not. We believe like the noble Bereans in the book of Acts. We test all beliefs/views against the Word of God. The Christian believes in the inspiration and inerrancy of God’s Word. The wrtings of men can never be on par with God’s Holy Word. We do not rely on other books and writings as do the LDS. Jesus Christ alone is Our High Priest, the only Mediator between man and God and He is the living Prophet of our church. This Jesus is God. He created all things including satan, so no they cannot be brothers. This Jesus is not the literal son of Heavenly Father. He is the Alpha and the Omega; the first and the last; the beginning and the end. This Jesus deserves worship. The angels worship Him. (Hebrews 1) He is a very different Jesus than the one of the mormon church.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, the one major difference between traditional Christianity and Mormonism is that

Yankee Drifter,
I think it will be easier to break down the items you noted into each separate point and briefly discuss them, so here goes:

Christians hold the Holy Bible alone to be the Word of God; the sole source of absolute Truth.

But that contradicts the Bible itself.

Jesus said: “Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth.”

Yes, God’s word is Truth, and should be sought after to bring sanctification to the soul of each person who seeks after Truth.

We must have a standard whereby we test all things to see if they are true or not; if they are of God or not. We believe like the noble Bereans in the book of Acts. We test all beliefs/views against the Word of God.

Yes, one should test all beliefs against the entire Word of God, not just little pieces and isolated verses.

The Christian believes in the inspiration and inerrancy of God’s Word. The wrtings of men can never be on par with God’s Holy Word. We do not rely on other books and writings as do the LDS.

If you are Catholic (not sure if you are), then there are a great amount of writings that you “rely on” besides the Holy Bible.

Jesus Christ alone is Our High Priest, the only Mediator between man and God and He is the living Prophet of our church.

If you’re saying that He is the Rock, and the Great High Priest who performed the Great and last sacrifice, and certainly the only Mediator between man and God, and the Prophet whom the Lord raised up as prophesied by Moses, then I totally and completely agree.

This Jesus is God. He created all things

I totally agree.

including satan, so no they cannot be brothers.

If you’re saying what you have literally written, and also believe that Jesus is omnipotent and omniscient and is the “First Cause” of all creation, then every subsequent action by any spirit or angel or person was ultimately caused by that first cause, since He would by definition know precisely what every one of those created angels or spirits or people was going to do at every point in eternity. That is what omniscience and omnipotence means.

(By the way, I don’t think of Jesus and satan as brothers, at all.)

This Jesus is not the literal son of Heavenly Father.

The Bible disagrees with you on that point.

He is the Alpha and the Omega; the first and the last; the beginning and the end. This Jesus deserves worship. The angels worship Him. (Hebrews 1)

I certainly do agree with all of those points.

He is a very different Jesus than the one of the Mormon church.

Indeed, if you honestly believe that “Jesus is not the literal Son of Heavenly Father”, then the concept you have of Jesus is very different than the living Christ of the Bible, of whom the apostles and prophets bore witness.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

That’s what struck me as I read it last night. It really was a wonderful testimony of Jesus Christ and his atonement and resurrection. The whole chapter seemed very Christ-centered and bolsters the Mormon claim that it is a second witness of Jesus. I was surprised how specific it was about the work Jesus did for us considering the time in which Nephi lived.

Isn’t that because it was written in the early 1800s?

We have evidence that the books of the OT predated those of the NT. Where is the evidence that the BoM predates Christ’s Incarnation?

Peace,
Robert

 

[LongJourney]

We have evidence that the books of the OT predated those of the NT. Where is the evidence that the BoM predates Christ’s Incarnation?

We have plenty of evidence that the peoples of the Book of Mormon believed that Jesus was going to come, and, in that fiction, their whole religion came to resemble a form of pre-Christian “Christianity” God never expects people to follow revelation before it has been revealed.

The religious rants delivered in the BoM resemble those of late 18th and early 19th Protestant preachers. Why? Because two Protestant preachers were instrumental in writing it.

 

[ParkerD]

The religious [writings] delivered in the BoM resemble those of late 18th and early 19th Protestant preachers. Why? Because two Protestant preachers were instrumental in writing it.

Hi, LJ,

So now’s the perfect opportunity for you to really get into specifics, by posting the exact quotes from the “two Protestant preachers” that show that they were “instrumental” in writing the Book of Mormon by showing the specific “resemblance” in a scholarly, easily-seen similarity of language use. I would like to see those specifics.???