Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[ParkerD]

Not in so many words, but the implication in the majority of your posts is that one who uses their intellect as an aid in determining truth lacks spiritual discernment. See your post concerning the Jews and the Messiah.

SteveVH,

That can indeed happen, since Paul taught about that:

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But it is also a case where God is in charge, and we are not. He has purposes in how He reveals knowledge, even though it is clear that as the Savior taught,

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If one doesn’t seek, knock, or ask, then one is completely unlikely to gain the “hidden wisdom” that Paul wrote about. Yet that doesn’t mean they will lack spirituality in everything in their life. It means simply that they may lack some spiritual wisdom they may otherwise have been able to “find”.

Then does it matter what one believes?

Yes. Belief is a starting point for gaining wisdom and gospel knowledge. Understanding that there is such a thing as “hidden wisdom” and that the “wisdom of men” doesn’t get one there is of importance.

Nor do I live my life "just worrying about keeping out of “spiritual danger”.

Good–I didn’t think so.

But if I am raised to believe that I should worship a golden calf, I believe that I would be in spiritual danger regardless of how I live the rest of my life.

Yes, indeed, that would be a non-Biblical way to live, and you would figure that out very, very soon if you read the Bible, and thus you or anyone so taught would be able to overcome the false teaching they had been raised with. That’s why I stressed living by Biblical teachings.

God revealed Himself to us for a reason; that we may know the truth.

Yes, and knowing the truth allows us to be set free from false traditions such as “worshiping a golden calf.”

If this is unimportant, then there was no reason for His revelation and following any faith tradition would be pointless.

'Not sure I follow your reasoning, but as far as I’m concerned, following a “faith tradition” leads to personal happiness and fulfillment and understanding of why this life is how it is, and that is never pointless.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

That can indeed happen, since Paul taught about that:

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But it is also a case where God is in charge, and we are not. He has purposes in how He reveals knowledge, even though it is clear that as the Savior taught,

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If one doesn’t seek, knock, or ask, then one is completely unlikely to gain the “hidden wisdom” that Paul wrote about. Yet that doesn’t mean they will lack spirituality in everything in their life. It means simply that they may lack some spiritual wisdom they may otherwise have been able to “find”.

Yes. Belief is a starting point for gaining wisdom and gospel knowledge. Understanding that there is such a thing as “hidden wisdom” and that the “wisdom of men” doesn’t get one there is of importance.

Good–I didn’t think so.

Yes, indeed, that would be a non-Biblical way to live, and you would figure that out very, very soon if you read the Bible, and thus you or anyone so taught would be able to overcome the false teaching they had been raised with. That’s why I stressed living by Biblical teachings.

Yes, and knowing the truth allows us to be set free from false traditions such as “worshiping a golden calf.”

'Not sure I follow your reasoning, but as far as I’m concerned, following a “faith tradition” leads to personal happiness and fulfillment and understanding of why this life is how it is, and that is never pointless.

I think we should probabaly call it good on this part of the conversation as I see no end in sight for either of us and this is getting stretched pretty thin. Parker, thanks for your patience with me thus far. Again, I appreciate your presence on this forum and I’m sure we’ll have many more discussions. At least I hope so.

God bless.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Just let it lay as well
In Christ

 

[Timothy17]

SteveVH,

That can indeed happen, since Paul taught about that:

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But it is also a case where God is in charge, and we are not. He has purposes in how He reveals knowledge, even though it is clear that as the Savior taught,

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If one doesn’t seek, knock, or ask, then one is completely unlikely to gain the “hidden wisdom” that Paul wrote about. Yet that doesn’t mean they will lack spirituality in everything in their life. It means simply that they may lack some spiritual wisdom they may otherwise have been able to “find”.

Yes. Belief is a starting point for gaining wisdom and gospel knowledge. Understanding that there is such a thing as “hidden wisdom” and that the “wisdom of men” doesn’t get one there is of importance.

Good–I didn’t think so.

Yes, indeed, that would be a non-Biblical way to live, and you would figure that out very, very soon if you read the Bible, and thus you or anyone so taught would be able to overcome the false teaching they had been raised with. That’s why I stressed living by Biblical teachings.

Yes, and knowing the truth allows us to be set free from false traditions such as “worshiping a golden calf.”

'Not sure I follow your reasoning, but as far as I’m concerned, following a “faith tradition” leads to personal happiness and fulfillment and understanding of why this life is how it is, and that is never pointless.

If your religion believed truly in the very Jesus of Nazareth, then how come it teaches you to abhor His Cross, or the Crucifixion, which the former is God’s Throne (“He reigned from the wood”), and the latter, which is the very Glory of God ?

If your religion was the same Church that Christ founded, you would not teach that Jesus was a scandalizer who drank wine, and provided an enormous sum of wine for a wedding feast, which things are sinful and shameful according to your religion, as Christ is not a fool, and would not beguile people by providing a bad example then lambasting them for following it, or for partaking of it, especially seeing as He commanded they do just that ; namely, partake of the wine in remembrance of Him.

If your religion believed in Truth, it would not practice secret ceremonies in man-made temples, especially around or associated with marriage, which thing is a wonderful and joyful thing and all humanity believes in its being celebrated openly and publicly, hiding no part of the wedding, save for that which human decency demands.

If your religion believed in Jesus, it would know that He taught us that Christians are the very Temple, which He, Himself, builds up into a holy, spiritual house, and therefore your religoin would not brazenly contradict His teachings by building false temples made with men’s hands, and if what they tell me is true of the proceedings that go on in those so-called temples to whatever alleged god may please itself to take residence in that profane place, then it is nothing more than “Whited sepulchers full… of all uncleaness.”

If the founder of your religion were actually a prophet, he would not need to consort with men who do shameful and blasphemous things in secret, and claim to have secret knowledge, since genuine Prophets need no secret knowledge, having recourse to Almighty God.

In sum, your religion is not the religion of Christ, but a counterfeit made so clearly and evidently by mere men, with, it seems, perhaps not a little help (if anything at all that they say is to be held as even remotely truthful regarding the founding of their religion) of demonic forces, who as ever masqueraded as angels of light, and deceived a man who may very well have deserved to be deceived, according to the just and secret judgement of God.

Pax,
Tim

 

[ParkerD]

If your religion believed truly in the very Jesus of Nazareth, then how come it teaches you to abhor His Cross, or the Crucifixion, which the former is God’s Throne (“He reigned from the wood”), and the latter, which is the very Glory of God ?

Timothy17,
I suppose I had best answer some of these comments and questions, although a bit reluctantly since I had thought this thread was going to end. Oh, well!

The LDS don’t “abhor His cross, or the crucifixion”. Perhaps you have us confused–not sure.

We have hymns that talk about the cross of Calvary and the crucifixion with great reverence and awe. We have pictures used in our teaching manuals that include Christ on the cross, and we reverence His atoning sacrifice in the garden of Gethsemane and on the cross of Calvary.

But we don’t wear a cross, and our church buildings don’t have crosses on them, so that does make us different.

If your religion was the same Church that Christ founded, you would not teach that Jesus was a scandalizer who drank wine, and provided an enormous sum of wine for a wedding feast, which things are sinful and shameful according to your religion

I don’t know where you heard that one?

Whether the wine was fermented or not, the custom of the use of wine at that time in history was just fine. We live in a different time, where advertising and “hard drinks” are far more prevalent than was the case in the Meridian of time. There is more danger, and hence the safeguard is for the blessing of people–not to punish them. The LDS church has never made the accusations about Christ that your statement attributed.

… especially seeing as He commanded they do just that ; namely, partake of the wine in remembrance of Him.

Yes, indeed He did.

If your religion believed in Truth, it would not practice secret ceremonies in man-made temples, especially around or associated with marriage, which thing is a wonderful and joyful thing and all humanity believes in its being celebrated openly and publicly, hiding no part of the wedding, save for that which human decency demands.

I can respect your feelings about this. But if you think about the Holy of Holies in the tabernacle of the children of Israel and the temple of Solomon, then perhaps you could at least allow that God might have different views about the sacredness and specialness of a marriage covenant given the belief that it is being done near the Holy of Holies, within His House, as though He were actually there present. You might think of the marriages of Jewish people “under a canopy” which represents the tabernacle which represents the temple.

If your religion believed in Jesus, it would know that He taught us that Christians are the very Temple, which He, Himself, builds up into a holy, spiritual house, and therefore your religion would not brazenly contradict His teachings by building false temples made with men’s hands

So here is an interesting comparison. I take it you don’t think Solomon’s temple was “made with men’s hands”? Do you think God came down among men and built Solomon’s temple? (Seriously–perhaps you have been taught this?)

I doubt that you know the first thing about what goes on in LDS temples, although what does go on in those temples is talked about in open houses that the public are invited to attend (so long as they have some reverence about them, and carry no signs with them).

If the founder of your religion were actually a prophet, he would not need to consort with men who do … things in secret, and claim to have secret knowledge, since genuine Prophets need no secret knowledge, having recourse to Almighty God.

I would say that’s a bit of a contradiction in statements, since God is omniscient and men aren’t, and since men such as Moses were indeed given “secret knowledge” even though he tried to give that knowledge to the people and sometimes they didn’t want it.

In sum, your religion is not the religion of Christ

I realize that is what you have been taught and evidently concluded using a lot of erroneous information.

Pax,
Tim

Tim, thanks for the wish of peace. I assure you I have tremendous physical, emotional and spiritual peace in my life, and for that I am very grateful to Heavenly Father, the Savior, and the Holy Spirit, particularly the Peace offered through the Savior’s atoning grace which is given to all mankind to partake if they will.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Well here we go, but it will take another post

I have been giving tours of our church here in Northern Utah for many years to the LDS. I will tell you this regarding the Crucifix in our Church.

What are the LDS taught about the Crucifix?
Regarding the Catholic Church?

This:
That Catholics focus more on the Crucified Christ than on the resurrected Christ.
This is the truth, very widespread at least here in Northern utah. So its not just about having the cross or not. Having pictures or paintings of the cross or not. It goes a lot deeper that that.

While the LDS our on a tour It gives me a chance to bring them the real story regarding the Cross and the Crucifix. It gives us a chance to give them truth while standing under this truth and gazing up at it. The symbol of such truth.

Why would Catholics spend 364 days a year with the risen Christ if this were true? That we focus more on the crucified Christ? We as Catholics focus on both the crucified Christ (our sin and what it does) and the resurection (our hope as sinners forgiven) as it goes hand in hand always in our lives. Why do we spend 7 weeks on the glorious resurrection if this were true? Why does the Mass celebrate both the crucified and the risen lord together all year long? When you mention Easter you are speaking about the Catholic Church. We live it.

Of course we meditate on the Crucifixion as it is where Satan has been defeated for us. It is the reason we have life.
It also represents the Tree of life, not the tree of death.
It also represents forgiveness of our sins
It also represents what our God went through in order to bring us home.
It represents us on His back, the cross being carried
It represents victory over sin and death.
I could go on and on and on here regarding the symbol of the Cross and what it means to all Christians. But we would have to start another posting. I would be glad to join in.

I could speak about the reaction my own children had here in Utah while wearing the cross to school. I could tell many stories about Mormons standing under our Crucifix in our church and the questions they ask about it. It is a conversation I am very comfortable with.

Focus on the death more than the life of Christ? Give me a break!
Those that say this have never witnessed the Holy Days or spent years walking with Jesus within the confines of His church.
It is another lie told by a group of people who have no idea. Parker I know this subject well and would love to bring it to you once again. I know that it has been posted many times here. And that is a very good thing right?

So anyone want to start this new post?

 

[ParkerD]

Catholic-RCIA,
Let’s just say that discussing the representations of the crucifixion is not a topic I want to discuss, as it goes into what I consider some negative artwork that I have seen that I don’t care for. That artwork may be important and significant to some people, but not for me.

Christ suffered agony, and I realize that, but “It is finished” means something to me that it may not mean to you. To me, the crucifixion and atonement open the door and the pathway to individual repentance and (as taught by Isaiah) the collective repentance of “backsliding Israel”, so I guess if artwork can show how the people are led toward repentance through understanding the atonement and crucifixion, then that would be artwork that would appeal to me if tastefully done.

 

[TikiTokiguy]

If the founder of your religion were actually a prophet, he would not need to consort with men who do shameful and blasphemous things in secret, and claim to have secret knowledge, since genuine Prophets need no secret knowledge, having recourse to Almighty God.

In sum, your religion is not the religion of Christ, but a counterfeit made so clearly and evidently by mere men, with, it seems, perhaps not a little help…

If the LDS leaders were real prophets there would be easy and understandable explanations for all their bad history. There are no understandable and easy explanations though. They were bad men. And yes, I’m sad to say, the LDS was made by mere men. As much as they say it was made by Christ Himself, no. It was made by a man, with great evidence showing he was a very bad man, along with some of his close associates.

 

[Anglican_Gal]

Catholic-RCIA,
Let’s just say that discussing the representations of the crucifixion is not a topic I want to discuss, as it goes into what I consider some negative artwork that I have seen that I don’t care for. That artwork may be important and significant to some people, but not for me.

Christ suffered agony, and I realize that, but “It is finished” means something to me that it may not mean to you. To me, the crucifixion and atonement open the door and the pathway to individual repentance and (as taught by Isaiah) the collective repentance of “backsliding Israel”, so I guess if artwork can show how the people are led toward repentance through understanding the atonement and crucifixion, then that would be artwork that would appeal to me if tastefully done.

For instance, the inverted pentagrams on the Mormon Nauvoo Temple which I’ve seen myself. The pentagram is an occult symbol.

mrm.org/nauvoo-pentagrams

Furthrmore, Mormons teach that the Atonement took place in the Garden AND on the cross. You will never find a crucifix or a cross in a Mormon temple or church.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Catholic-RCIA,
Let’s just say that discussing the representations of the crucifixion is not a topic I want to discuss, as it goes into what I consider some negative artwork that I have seen that I don’t care for. That artwork may be important and significant to some people, but not for me.
.

I think I know what you are saying. In my life the most profound experiences I have had is taking the Eucharist to those dying. To hold them as they slip away isn’t an easy thing to do by any means. You want to do everything to decrease the pain. Yet we must embrace it just as much as the joy in order to bring Christ to Christ.

Or to see your own mother and brother lying lifeless before they are buried. If one made an image of this I probably would not want to see it now. These images are already in my head and they have never gone away. Its funny though because when I do think about these times I find them to be the most important times of my life in regards to love, in regards to suffering. If there is one place where people seem to be at their best it’s not sitting around the Christmas table or even the Easter table for that matter. For me it’s standing by the body of one you have loved on this earth. As to my grandfather I did not want to leave this kind of presence as I stood next to him for hours upon hours. . I was sixteen when he left; the impact of his death was more than I could take at that time. But it was his death that showed me how much I was loved by Him, How much I love him.

The Crucifix in our Church also brings out the best not only in us Catholics but in the LDS as well as we both stand under it together. They say things like. “This really brings it all home” – “it really makes you think about what our Savior did for us” One LDS women crying whom I had been gifted to embrace her as she cried out “Why can’t we just forgive each other” Another young women “It makes me feel depressed” Another says “it should” Another “why don’t we have this in our Church?”

The Cross brings out the best in all of us, embracing suffering is where life begins.
Understanding suffering is where life begins.

You see while on a tour of our church standing by the Cross I always ask how it makes them feel and one or two always have a great answer. We let them approach the alter and walk underneath the Cross. The corpus of Christ is life-sized and Jewish models were used.

As to me these are the best times of my life to date because I have a sense that these people are home with us at these moments. Sin seems to melt away at the foot of the cross. You might say moments I live for because I know how it makes God feel. And all of this heads towards the Easter season, to move beyond the suffering into the joy that is our hope. You don’t have Crosses Parker because your church once decided it was to Christian, it was to Catholic. I have heard the reasons on why no crosses regarding the LDS. Only one is true and it was a huge mistake for your faith. As much as the LDS want to be seen as Christians this is the one mistake that continues to be one of the biggest problems for retaining the LDS Converts. As the Cross will always remain the biggest Christian symbol of faith. It is through His death that we find our lives in Him. In all this I can see in the cross my Salvation, my joy. Tears are very good. Try watching these Parker. Get into a Catholic mindset if only for a few moments. Everyone in these clips he came to die for. But as you watch, if you can think about this: He died for you. Tears are good.

 

[catholic-rcia]

One more thing Parker
I don’t know how much time you have spent in Catholic Churches but I feel as if you need to spend juts a few minutes here:
youtube.com/watch?v=cUVPB8YRIg8&feature=related
There are many other videos that you may watch. You should probably do this my freind
In Christ
Rich

 

[SteveVH]

I think I know what you are saying. In my life the most profound experiences I have had is taking the Eucharist to those dying. To hold them as they slip away isn’t an easy thing to do by any means. You want to do everything to decrease the pain. Yet we must embrace it just as much as the joy in order to bring Christ to Christ.

Or to see your own mother and brother lying lifeless before they are buried. If one made an image of this I probably would not want to see it now. These images are already in my head and they have never gone away. Its funny though because when I do think about these times I find them to be the most important times of my life in regards to love, in regards to suffering. If there is one place where people seem to be at their best it’s not sitting around the Christmas table or even the Easter table for that matter. For me it’s standing by the body of one you have loved on this earth. As to my grandfather I did not want to leave this kind of presence as I stood next to him for hours upon hours. . I was sixteen when he left; the impact of his death was more than I could take at that time. But it was his death that showed me how much I was loved by Him, How much I love him.

The Crucifix in our Church also brings out the best not only in us Catholics but in the LDS as well as we both stand under it together. They say things like. “This really brings it all home” – “it really makes you think about what our Savior did for us” One LDS women crying whom I had been gifted to embrace her as she cried out “Why can’t we just forgive each other” Another young women “It makes me feel depressed” Another says “it should” Another “why don’t we have this in our Church?”

The Cross brings out the best in all of us, embracing suffering is where life begins.
Understanding suffering is where life begins.

You see while on a tour of our church standing by the Cross I always ask how it makes them feel and one or two always have a great answer. We let them approach the alter and walk underneath the Cross. The corpus of Christ is life-sized and Jewish models were used.

As to me these are the best times of my life to date because I have a sense that these people are home with us at these moments. Sin seems to melt away at the foot of the cross. You might say moments I live for because I know how it makes God feel. And all of this heads towards the Easter season, to move beyond the suffering into the joy that is our hope. You don’t have Crosses Parker because your church once decided it was to Christian, it was to Catholic. I have heard the reasons on why no crosses regarding the LDS. Only one is true and it was a huge mistake for your faith. As much as the LDS want to be seen as Christians this is the one mistake that continues to be one of the biggest problems for retaining the LDS Converts. As the Cross will always remain the biggest Christian symbol of faith. It is through His death that we find our lives in Him. In all this I can see in the cross my Salvation, my joy. Tears are very good. Try watching these Parker. Get into a Catholic mindset if only for a few moments. Everyone in these clips he came to die for. But as you watch, if you can think about this: He died for you. Tears are good.

Thanks for this post. You are involved in a wonderful ministry in bringing attention to the cross, and more importantly, to the crucifix. It isn’t the cross that saves us, it is the One hanging on it. The one thing I am sure that Christ did not mean with the words “it is finished” was our remembrance of Him on the cross.

“Dying, you destroyed our death. Rising, you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory!”

God bless.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Thanks for this post. You are involved in a wonderful ministry in bringing attention to the cross, and more importantly, to the crucifix. It isn’t the cross that saves us, it is the One hanging on it. The one thing I am sure that Christ did not mean with the words “it is finished” was our remembrance of Him on the cross.

“Dying, you destroyed our death. Rising, you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory!”

God bless.

Thanks Steve, praise God! I know exactly what you mean.
Rich

 

[ParkerD]

For instance, the inverted pentagrams on the Mormon Nauvoo Temple which I’ve seen myself…

mrm.org/nauvoo-pentagrams

Furthrmore, Mormons teach that the Atonement took place in the Garden AND on the cross. You will never find a crucifix or a cross in a Mormon temple or church.

Anglican Gal,

I wouldn’t say that that symbol is a “for instance” regarding what I had written, but I just wanted to let you know I read your post, and noted in the article you cited that even the writer of the article admitted that the LDS don’t include “inverted pentagrams” as anything similar to dark spirits.

Dark spirits are always going to use methods whereby they mix and distort truths and symbolism with commingled deception and error and darkness. So why should I be surprised that they choose to influence the use of similar symbolism?

As far as I’m concerned, a star with one point directed straight down (toward the earth) means that revelation comes from heaven toward the earth in a pointed, specific and direct fashion if and only if those seeking the truths from God are willing to reach upward toward receiving those truths by asking.

 

[ParkerD]

The one thing I am sure that Christ did not mean with the words “it is finished” was our remembrance of Him on the cross.

SteveVH,

One can remember Christ’s suffering on the cross through the use of the mind and heart, quite well, and one can commemorate that memorial weekly and then repent daily and I think Christ appreciates that use of His atoning grace.

Catholic-RCIA,

I suppose that you realize that the LDS belief is that Christ does in very deed “enter into our pain”, including the pains of overcoming addictions and the many horrible pains that come into the lives of people on this earth.

Since this thread is supposed to be about the Book of Mormon, I suppose that I might as well show how this was taught by Alma and by an angel who taught King Benjamin:

Alma 7: 12
12 And he will take upon him death, that he may loose the bands of death which bind his people; and he will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities.

Mosiah 3:5-9
5 For behold, the time cometh, and is not far distant, that with power, the Lord Omnipotent who reigneth, who was, and is from all eternity to all eternity, shall come down from heaven among the children of men, and shall dwell in a tabernacle of clay, and shall go forth amongst men, working mighty miracles, such as healing the sick, raising the dead, causing the lame to walk, the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear, and curing all manner of diseases.
6 And he shall cast out devils, or the evil spirits which dwell in the hearts of the children of men.
7 And lo, he shall suffer temptations, and pain of body, hunger, thirst, and fatigue, even more than man can suffer, except it be unto death; for behold, blood cometh from every pore, so great shall be his anguish for the wickedness and the abominations of his people.
8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.
9 And lo, he cometh unto his own, that salvation might come unto the children of men even through faith on his name; and even after all this they shall consider him a man, and say that he hath a devil, and shall scourge him, and shall crucify him.

 

[catholic-rcia]

If I am to read your scriptures I would need to see where they speak of a multitude of Gods, that God was once a man like us. Otherwise I am not reading about the LDS faith as I have come to know, so it can carry no weight for me. None at all for many other reasons as well… I find these things in the Bible, their origin written down. As to this being about the book of Mormon. The post is probably about ready to be closed. That’s ok. With that said.

You said art would be good if it reminded you of the gospel. What Jesus has done for us. So an empty cross worn around ones neck to remind us that Jesus rose from the dead would be a good piece of art right?

Why would an LDS Bishop take one aside and tell them that they can not wear such a cross at a Sacrament meeting?

Do you know of any among you who wear the empty cross as a symbol of Christs resurection?

Why did my son get ridiculed by the LDS at school for wearing a small empty cross? Why did this happen to my other son who wore a medal of Saint Michael? Why would more than one, all older persons ask me why we as Catholics focus more on the death of Christ than on the Risen Christ? Who teaches them these things Parker?

One asked me “It seems you focus more on the death than the resurrection” He happened to ask me this on the seventh week of the Easter season long after the LDS Eater dinner was over. Talk about striking at a heart. But no worries because when these questions are asked I see a person in front of me that was made in the image of God, loved just as much as me. It gives me a chance to speak truth that they have been lacking. Most are receptive. It really depends on the tone of the question whether it was asked in sincerity. With the spirit all over us at these moments you know which ones are sincere and which ones are not. You take advantage of both in the same light. (Love) But its when you see them standing at the foot of our Crucifix, and you see one of their tears hit the ground you know how special art like this can be. It is undeniable, it is front and center.
Jesus is front and center.

 

[ParkerD]

…
You said art would be good if it reminded you of the gospel. What Jesus has done for us. So an empty cross worn around ones neck to remind us that Jesus rose from the dead would be a good piece of art right?

For those who like to, I suppose. It’s not a big deal to me.

Why would an LDS Bishop take one aside and tell them that they can not wear such a cross at a Sacrament meeting?

I really don’t know, unless it was overly drawing attention to itself (you didn’t mention its size)

Do you know of any among you who wear the empty cross as a symbol of Christs resurrection?

Not LDS folks, no, but I had some good friends in high school who did and it was fine.

Why did my son get ridiculed by the LDS at school for wearing a small empty cross? Why did this happen to my other son who wore a medal of Saint Michael?

I suppose some youth have no experience seeing those worn, in some Utah communities.

Why would more than one, all older persons ask me why we as Catholics focus more on the death of Christ than on the Risen Christ? Who teaches them these things Parker?

If you were taking them on tour, then maybe it was a gut reaction–I don’t know. LDS do speak of a “focus” on the risen Christ and the resurrection, so I suppose they are used to feeling that is an appropriate emphasis. The New Testament certainly communicates a lot of joy about the resurrection of Christ. It is something to be joyful about.

I have no problem with the feelings you have expressed about the artwork you enjoy.

 

[yankee_drifter]

ParkerD.

Can you please explain to me why in the BoM believers are called “Christians” many decades before Christ was born?

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD.

Can you please explain to me why in the BoM believers are called “Christians” many decades before Christ was born?

Yankee Drifter,

The Book of Mormon prophets had received angellic visits at various times wherein they were told that the name of the Messiah was going to be “Jesus Christ” (as translated into English).

When Joseph Smith received the inspiration to translate the inscription he was seeing into the English word “Christian”, it is not as though that group of “true believers in Christ” was suddenly being called by an English word. We have no idea what the word was in the original language. It means that they came up with a word in their language that had the meaning of “true believer in Christ” and “follower of Christ” and was evidently a single word they used.

The word for “the Christ” means “the Anointed One”, as I assume you are aware. So the English word “Christian” can suitably be understood to mean, “true believers in the Anointed One” or in other words, “true believers in the promised Messiah”, and that can be written in different languages and carry a meaning that is that meaning but in another language (a Hebrew derivative language they used for their religious writing).

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,

The Book of Mormon prophets had received angellic visits at various times wherein they were told that the name of the Messiah was going to be “Jesus Christ” (as translated into English).

When Joseph Smith received the inspiration to translate the inscription he was seeing into the English word “Christian”, it is not as though that group of “true believers in Christ” was suddenly being called by an English word. We have no idea what the word was in the original language. It means that they came up with a word in their language that had the meaning of “true believer in Christ” and “follower of Christ” and was evidently a single word they used.

The word for “the Christ” means “the Anointed One”, as I assume you are aware. So the English word “Christian” can suitably be understood to mean, “true believers in the Anointed One” or in other words, “true believers in the promised Messiah”, and that can be written in different languages and carry a meaning that is that meaning but in another language (a Hebrew derivative language they used for their religious writing).

I’m sorry but this doesn’t jibe with the Holy Bible. In Acts we read that they were first called Christians in Antioch. We don’t even see the word Christian anywhere in the OT. Before Christ came in the flesh, believers did not place their faith in him. It was in Yahweh, Israel’s God.

As for Reformed Egyptian being a language, There is not one scholar that has ever heard of it.