Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[flyonthewall]

What do you think of this (from lds.org):

“Often we forget that obedience must be learned. Even Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, learned perfect obedience, which qualified Him to serve as our Lawgiver and Lord.”

Yes, even Jesus Christ had to obey. Until His ministry was complete His obedience was not complete.
What do you think about this:
"And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. "
Was Christ not perfect before? Another definition of perfect is complete.

And this, is what defines Mormons as non-Christian, twisting scripture into something that is false:

“Jesus was a God in the preexistence.”

(Not to mention this idea that God must prove He is qualified. )

Then I take it you are stating that Jesus was not divine before the creation of the earth?
We believe Jesus Christ was divine before the creation of the earth and that makes us non-Christian?
Again, you try to deny my belief in Christ because of my perspective of Him.

From my perspective, your faith has many more gyrations and twisting of scripture into something that is not true, yet I would never think to try and deny your faith in Christ and call you “non-Christian”. You are simply doing the best you can with what you have…same as anyone else.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Then I take it you are stating that Jesus was not divine before the creation of the earth?

No flyonthewall, I’m pointing our your polytheism.

From my perspective, your faith has many more gyrations and twisting of scripture into something that is not true, yet I would never think to try and deny your faith in Christ and call you “non-Christian”. You are simply doing the best you can with what you have…same as anyone else.

Typical passive-aggressive response.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Jean-Michel, You must understand that when LDS speak of Jesus Christ, they are not speaking of the same person. I don’t mean this in a derogatory way, it is a fact.

Christians understand Jesus’ nature as fully God and fully human. Mormons do not have this understanding. When they speak of Jesus “learning” or becoming “perfected”, they are talking about a demigod who has yet to gain more power and become a greater god than he was before. In other words, they don’t believe He has always been fully divine, He had to become Who He IS…since Jesus is to them a creature like themselves. A creature who became a god among gods.

So no, it isn’t that I think Mormons are bad people. I understand they would like to follow Christ, but unfortunately, they don’t know who He is and they follow an idea, a shadow, of Him. Not fully understanding, and spending enormous amounts of resources in spreading their errors.

 

[flyonthewall]

I am well aware of what the lds church teaches. They believe in a plurality of gods and that these so called gods were once men. This includes heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The lds also believes that he may also become a god through obedience to church laws and ordinances, the sacraments, tithing, marriage sealing in the temple, etc.

Based on scripture, and yes biblical scripture

The Biblical God is the one revealed in God’s Holy Word, the Holy Bible. It is God-Breathed. Authored by God, the Holy Spirit. There is no other book like it anywhere. None other can claim inspiration. These are the scriptures first given to the Jews whom God entrusted with His very Oracles, then to the followers of Jesus Christ who make up His Church.

Why is there no other book anywhere? Why can none other claim inspiration? You make assertions, but have nothing to back them up. It seems like you put limitations on what God can do.

If your beliefs are firmly rooted in the Bible, then you would not have doctrines/teachings that conflict with it. God said He was always God. That He alone is God, There are no others, none before Him and none shall come after. This is what the One True God said. He recognizes no other gods, this includes a goddess wife. Jesus Christ was always God. John 1 says of Christ that In the beginning ( and we can’t go further back than that) The Word (Christ) was with God and the Word was God. Joseph Smith rewrote these precious Scriptures. Made many “revisions” and he changed John 1 so that Christ is a god. The JWs made a similar change.

None of our doctrines conflict with the Bible, only your interpretation of it. Your statement above is contradictory in itself. The One True God said there is none other beside Him, yet this phraseology is used else where to convey incomparability, not to convey a sole existence…otherwise Babylon would be the only city in the world.
Aside from that, Jesus Christ, whom you claim is fully God, states that He Himself, has a God. What?!? God has a God? That does not fit into your definition so now what?

What constitutes the Biblical God? There is only One God manifested in 3 Persons of the same exact essence, nature, being and substance: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. There are no other gods.

This is just as polytheistic as you claim our belief is. You recognize that there are 3 that are identified as God, but that does not compute, so you make up a definition. As mentioned above, Jesus, who is God says He has a God.
Each person being a God, yet also being one in purpose is a much more straigh forward interpretaion of scripture, and has less to do with Greek philosphy.

Its interesting that the lds wants to be our brother in Christ and yet your very own founder said all the Christian churches were wrong, our creeds and leaders were an abomination to God and corrupt. The lds says our Holy Bible is corrupt and filled with errors and that only your church can “translate it correctly.” Your church calls all non lds Gentiles failing to understand that all non Jews are Gentiles which includes most of the lds.

This shows that you understand less about the LDS church than you claim. If you understood our faith as you think you do, you would understand the use of the term “gentile”.
Your faith does much the same thing you accuse our faith of doing. You claim there is no salvation outside of the Catholic church. You claim the only authorized interpretor of scripture is the Catholic church.

Christ’s Church recognizes Christ’s immaculate conception. That the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to the Savior. This is what God’s Word says but the lds rejects.

Lol! The LDS fully embraces that Mary was a virgin and was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost and gave birth to the Savior. What it does not adhere to is the Immaculate Conception…where that came from is not from scripture, in fact, scripture refutes it.

It has nothing to do with perceptions from different positions. It has to do with the True doctrine of God and Salvation which never changes. Unless one believes in the Jesus Christ that God’s Word testifies of, then one is believing in a fictitious christ who can save no one. Hinckley said the lds do not believe in the Biblical Christ. Jesus said unless you believe in Me, you will die in your sins. Your eternal salvation depends on this. Are you willing to risk that?

It has everything to do with perceptions from differnt positions.
You pull Pres. Hinkley’s statement out of context and try to use it to prove we believe in a different Jesus, which is disengenuous. In context, he was merely confirming that we believe different things about Jesus.
I believe in Christ as described in the Bible, same as you do. The only difference being the interpretation of the Bible.

 

[flyonthewall]

No flyonthewall, I’m pointing our your polytheism.

Which you either don’t understand what polytheism is, failed in doing so, or do not understand our position.

Typical passive-aggressive response.

Not passive-aggressive, just simply straight forward.

 

[SteveVH]

He was divine, but became mortal like us, and as a mortal learned obedience:

Hebrews 5:

7 Who [Jesus] in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Got the idea now?

I don’t disagree with you on this ( I think). Besides the verses you have given, we are told that Jesus "grew in wisdom and stature’ (Luke 2:52) It is certainly a mystery and one which we cannot fully understand. Jesus, in his humanity, was like us in everything but sin. I believe, for instance, that he learned carpentry from his step father, Joseph. He didn’t push Joseph aside and say “hey, let me show you a little trick I learned in heaven”. He also studied the Scriptures, while at the same time understanding that they were speaking of Him. It is also evident that he knew that he “must be about His Father’s business” when they found him teaching in the Temple when he was only twelve years old.

Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, two natures in one person. I know you will disagree with that point, but nevertheless His human will and intellect were, indeed, fully human, but also in complete harmony with his and his Father’s divine will and intellect. We see both of these in Scripture.

 

[zerinus]

I don’t disagree with you on this (I think). Besides the verses you have given, we are told that Jesus "grew in wisdom and stature’ (Luke 2:52) It is certainly a mystery and one which we cannot fully understand. Jesus, in his humanity, was like us in everything but sin.

I agree with that, except that you and I have different understanding of the word “sin” in the above context. To me, that means committed sin. Jesus was without sin because He never committed any. To you (and to Catholicism apparently), “sin” here means not only committed sin but also imputed sin. The sin of Adam is imputed to the fallen creature. We believe that neither Jesus, nor any other man ever becomes guilty by “imputation”. We become guilty of sin only by commission. He was sinless because He never committed any sins. He was divine, therefore He had power to “bind Satan” and “spoil his goods,” figuratively speaking; which is another way of saying, to resist his temptations and overcome them. We don’t have that much power; and although God does not allow us to be “tempted above that we are able,” nevertheless we still sometimes yield to temptation and sin.

I believe, for instance, that he learned carpentry from his step father, Joseph. He didn’t push Joseph aside and say “hey, let me show you a little trick I learned in heaven”. He also studied the Scriptures, while at the same time understanding that they were speaking of Him. It is also evident that he knew that he “must be about His Father’s business” when they found him teaching in the Temple when he was only twelve years old.

Agreed.

Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, two natures in one person. I know you will disagree with that point, but nevertheless His human will and intellect were, indeed, fully human, . . .

I tend agree with that actually. I don’t see a serious problem with that doctrine.

. . . but also in complete harmony with his and his Father’s divine will and intellect.

Well, not automatically! He had to strive to bring His will to be in perfect harmony with the will of the Father. He was not just born that way. Consider these verses:

Luke 22:

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone’s cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

Jesus did not instinctively want to go through the agonies that He was foreordained to; but had to struggle to bring His will in harmony with the will of the Father.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Which you either don’t understand what polytheism is, failed in doing so, or do not understand our position.

Not passive-aggressive, just simply straight forward.

The definition of polytheism which is the same as plurality of gods, is the belief in more than one god. Doesn’t matter if you only worship one god, the fact is you believe in the existence of zillions of them.

As for the virgin birth, you say you believe in that and that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, however, this was not the teaching of the lds church for many years. Its the answer that the lds missionaries give us because they don’t want to expose non lds to the meat.

Brigham Young said: “Now remember from this time forth and forever that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.”

“God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone”

McConkie wrote in Mormon Doctrine: “Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.”

In Doctrine of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: " Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man and that Man was God."

B. Young also said: "The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife. But Mary, the wife of Joseph had another husband. (God)

Orson Pratt in the Seer wrote: “The virgin Mary must have been for a time being, the lawful wife of God the Father.”

Maybe you and many lds do not believe that today, but the fact remains that Pratt did teach this as doctrine of the church with the approval and sanction of the 1st presidency.

This conflicts with the Holy Bible according to Matthew and Luke The angel Gabriel, who appeared to Joseph (Mary’s husband) to reassure him concerning the divine origin of Christ’s Conception, said: "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. (Matt 1:20)

 

[yankee_drifter]

It has everything to do with perceptions from differnt positions.
You pull Pres. Hinkley’s statement out of context and try to use it to prove we believe in a different Jesus, which is disengenuous. In context, he was merely confirming that we believe different things about Jesus.
I believe in Christ as described in the Bible, same as you do. The only difference being the interpretation of the Bible.

Nope, sorry but Hinckley is on record and more than once saying that the lds do not believe in the Biblical Jesus. Even if as you say, you believe different things about Christ this is still wrong because there is only one Jesus Christ, God the Son, who in the beginning ( and we cannot go back further than the beginning) was with God and was God. (John 1) Joseph Smith rewrote John 1 calling Jesus a god. The JWs made a similar change.

Any other christ than the one that God’s Word, the Holy Scriptures testifies of, is a false christ and a false christ can save no one.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Which you either don’t understand what polytheism is, failed in doing so, or do not understand our position.

I understand perfectly. Thanks.

 

[flyonthewall]

The definition of polytheism which is the same as plurality of gods, is the belief in more than one god. Doesn’t matter if you only worship one god, the fact is you believe in the existence of zillions of them.

We are no more polytheistic than Catholics are, or as outlined in the Bible. The difference between us is that we recognize the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are different personages and each are divine…3 people, each God, 3 Gods that comprise the One True God.
Now I can come up with a conclusion of your beliefs that you would not recognize and claim I understand your beliefs better than you do…but I refrain.

As for the virgin birth, you say you believe in that and that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, however, this was not the teaching of the lds church for many years. Its the answer that the lds missionaries give us because they don’t want to expose non lds to the meat.

Brigham Young said: “Now remember from this time forth and forever that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost.”

“God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone”

McConkie wrote in Mormon Doctrine: “Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.”

In Doctrine of Salvation, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: " Christ was begotten of God. He was not born without the aid of Man and that Man was God."

B. Young also said: "The man Joseph, the husband of Mary, did not, that we know of, have more than one wife. But Mary, the wife of Joseph had another husband. (God)

Orson Pratt in the Seer wrote: “The virgin Mary must have been for a time being, the lawful wife of God the Father.”

Maybe you and many lds do not believe that today, but the fact remains that Pratt did teach this as doctrine of the church with the approval and sanction of the 1st presidency

.The FACT is that you do not understand LDS doctrines concerning this. It was NEVER taught as doctrine. Your interpretation and spin do not make it so. This is standard anti fodder…pull quotes out of context, fabricate an interpretation that does not represent what was being taught and claim we don’t know our own doctirnes, or that they have changed.
We firmly claim and always have claimed that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of the Father…The Holy Ghost did indeed “overshadow” Mary, but the Father is the father of Jesus. And, Jesus was born of a virgin birth. To state otherwise is to deny scriptures and the words of Jesus Himself.

This conflicts with the Holy Bible according to Matthew and Luke The angel Gabriel, who appeared to Joseph (Mary’s husband) to reassure him concerning the divine origin of Christ’s Conception, said: "That which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. (Matt 1:20)

Then I take it you believe that Jesus Christ is NOT the Son of the Father? If the Father is not the father of the Son, how do you make that work?

 

[yankee_drifter]

We are no more polytheistic than Catholics are, or as outlined in the Bible. The difference between us is that we recognize the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are different personages and each are divine…3 people, each God, 3 Gods that comprise the One True God.
Now I can come up with a conclusion of your beliefs that you would not recognize and claim I understand your beliefs better than you do…but I refrain.

.The FACT is that you do not understand LDS doctrines concerning this. It was NEVER taught as doctrine. Your interpretation and spin do not make it so. This is standard anti fodder…pull quotes out of context, fabricate an interpretation that does not represent what was being taught and claim we don’t know our own doctirnes, or that they have changed.
We firmly claim and always have claimed that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of the Father…The Holy Ghost did indeed “overshadow” Mary, but the Father is the father of Jesus. And, Jesus was born of a virgin birth. To state otherwise is to deny scriptures and the words of Jesus Himself.

Then I take it you believe that Jesus Christ is NOT the Son of the Father? If the Father is not the father of the Son, how do you make that work?

Doesn’t matter if these things were never made official doctrine. The point is your leaders did teach it. I sure you believe the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, but your past leaders taught differently and any honest lds would admit this and not try to deny it and sweep it under the carpet.

Catholics are not polytheistic. I know of no religious group, other than cults that are polytheistic. You stand alone on this. I urge you to read the works of Brigham Young and the other leaders whom I quoted. Your 3 gods were once men who had to learn obedience and progress to godhood. The Chrisian God was always God.

 

[flyonthewall]

Doesn’t matter if these things were never made official doctrine. The point is your leaders did teach it. I sure you believe the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary, but your past leaders taught differently and any honest lds would admit this and not try to deny it and sweep it under the carpet

Again, just because you think that is what it means does not make it so. Our past leaders NEVER taught as your spin indicates.

Catholics are not polytheistic. I know of no religious group, other than cults that are polytheistic. You stand alone on this. I urge you to read the works of Brigham Young and the other leaders whom I quoted. Your 3 gods were once men who had to learn obedience and progress to godhood. The Chrisian God was always God.

Catholics are every bit as polytheistic…If you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate personages and each divine, then you believe as we do…except you have played games with language so you can claim belief in only one God.

I have read the works of those leaders and if you take their works as a whole, instead of cherry picking items that you think work towards your means you will see that you are off the mark. Stop quote mining and read everything to get a sense of what is being taught.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Again, just because you think that is what it means does not make it so. Our past leaders NEVER taught as your spin indicates.

Catholics are every bit as polytheistic…If you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate personages and each divine, then you believe as we do…except you have played games with language so you can claim belief in only one God.

I have read the works of those leaders and if you take their works as a whole, instead of cherry picking items that you think work towards your means you will see that you are off the mark. Stop quote mining and read everything to get a sense of what is being taught.

Catholics believe in the Trinity which is One God.

Instead of attacking me, why don’t you do the research and read what your leaders have said.

 

[SteveVH]

Again, just because you think that is what it means does not make it so. Our past leaders NEVER taught as your spin indicates.

Catholics are every bit as polytheistic…If you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are separate personages and each divine, then you believe as we do…except you have played games with language so you can claim belief in only one God.

I have read the works of those leaders and if you take their works as a whole, instead of cherry picking items that you think work towards your means you will see that you are off the mark. Stop quote mining and read everything to get a sense of what is being taught.

I think one of the problems is that the LDS wish to shy away from anything that may involve a “mystery”. We only state what has been revealed and do not pretend that we can grasp it entirely. As a matter of fact, we can be sure that if we ever come to a point where we believe we grasp it, then God cannot be any greater than our own minds. He is, in fact , infinitely greater and infinitely beyond our understanding. He is not a man who progressed to a god. He is God from all eternity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Just as ice, vapor and liquid, being completely distinct from one another, are in essence, or being, water; so are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one in being or essence, though they are distinct Persons. Where the Father is, there also is the Son and the Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, there also are the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, there also are the Father and the Son. They are one in mystical unity.

 

[zerinus]

I think one of the problems is that the LDS wish to shy away from anything that may involve a “mystery”. We only state what has been revealed and do not pretend that we can grasp it entirely. As a matter of fact, we can be sure that if we ever come to a point where we believe we grasp it, then God cannot be any greater than our own minds. He is, in fact , infinitely greater and infinitely beyond our understanding. He is not a man who progressed to a god. He is God from all eternity; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Just as ice, vapor and liquid, being completely distinct from one another, are in essence, or being, water; so are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit one in being or essence, though they are distinct Persons. Where the Father is, there also is the Son and the Holy Spirit. Where the Son is, there also are the Father and the Holy Spirit. Where the Holy Spirit is, there also are the Father and the Son. They are one in mystical unity.

We certainly believe in mysteries; we just think that you have got that bit of mystery wrong!

 

[SteveVH]

We certainly believe in mysteries; we just think that you have got that bit of mystery wrong!

Yes, I am aware of that.

 

[The_One_Trinity]

Im sorry, but this is why I said you cant talk about religion with a mormon. They know what is right and we are all wrong. God was of the flesh, he had to work to be a god. They think they will be gods. Dumb to say the least. Keep trying to show us YOUR scripture in here, its wrong people. I hope God can forgive you.

 

[ParkerD]

Im sorry, but this is why I said you cant talk about religion with a mormon. They know what is right and we are all wrong. God was of the flesh, he had to work to be a god. They think they will be gods. Dumb to say the least. Keep trying to show us YOUR scripture in here, its wrong people. I hope God can forgive you.

T.O.T.,
It certainly does seem mortally implausible, and that Christ would not have the power to do that even though knowing that He is omnipotent and even though the Bible says He has that power–but with our mortal perspective it certainly seems “out of reach”.

But “dumb” would be the wrong word for something taught repeatedly in the Bible as what God wants humankind to become (“like God”, “one with God”).

Mormons do have the added benefit of the sure witness of the Holy Ghost, which does make it pointless to “talk about religion” if you’re intent is to prove to them that they are wrong. Both sides would probably soon become defensive.

The misunderstanding takes another turn in the third sentence and the last sentence. The Father is a resurrected, glorified Man of Holiness just as is the Son of God, Jesus Christ. As I see it, the word “work” needs to be understood as being perfect yet being in a condition where there was an opportunity to make choices and the right choice was made at every single moment in eternity, and where Each One had the power within Themselves to resurrect through Their own power.

God is omnipotent and omniscient with perfect love, compassion and understanding. No need to worry about His ability to “forgive them for they know not what they do”.

Wishing you peace.

 

[yankee_drifter]

T.O.T.,
It certainly does seem mortally implausible, and that Christ would not have the power to do that even though knowing that He is omnipotent and even though the Bible says He has that power–but with our mortal perspective it certainly seems “out of reach”.

But “dumb” would be the wrong word for something taught repeatedly in the Bible as what God wants humankind to become (“like God”, “one with God”).

Mormons do have the added benefit of the sure witness of the Holy Ghost, which does make it pointless to “talk about religion” if you’re intent is to prove to them that they are wrong. Both sides would probably soon become defensive.

The misunderstanding takes another turn in the third sentence and the last sentence. The Father is a resurrected, glorified Man of Holiness just as is the Son of God, Jesus Christ. As I see it, the word “work” needs to be understood as being perfect yet being in a condition where there was an opportunity to make choices and the right choice was made at every single moment in eternity, and where Each One had the power within Themselves to resurrect through Their own power.

God is omnipotent and omniscient with perfect love, compassion and understanding. No need to worry about His ability to “forgive them for they know not what they do”.

Wishing you peace.

This is the problem Parker, you think that you and your church has the added benefit of the Holy Ghost. That is not true. All born again believers in Christ receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit who illuminates the Scriptures for us and confirms Heavenly Father’s will. The Holy Spirit also convicts us when we sin. In order to have this indwelling, one must be born again. The lds church does not teach that. They are still working towards salvation through obedience of the laws and ordinances of your church. This is the pride of superiority which the lds falsely believes he has. You do not have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit nor do you have the indwelling because you are not part of the royal priesthood which Peter talks about. If you had this indwelling, you would be able to understand and rightly divide the Word of God without constantly depending on you leaders for interpretation.