Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

You misintrepreted Justin’s writings. God created the world through the Incarnate Word – Jesus Christ.

The Nicene Creed, following the Apostles' Creed (We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of earth), was written in the 300's to address the heresies that arose over time:

‘We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven (spirit) and earth (matter) of all that is seen and unseen.’ That is all Justin was drawing on.

It continues…

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made…

 

[yankee_drifter]

Parker,

You misintrepreted Justin’s writings. God created the world through the Incarnate Word – Jesus Christ.

The Nicene Creed, following the Apostles' Creed (We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, Maker of earth), was written in the 300's to address the heresies that arose over time:

‘We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven (spirit) and earth (matter) of all that is seen and unseen.’ That is all Justin was drawing on.

It continues…

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father. Through Him all things were made…

You are absolutely correct. Thanks for your post…

 

[KathleenGee]

Justin was simply drawing from the Apostles Creed.

Catholics and Jews relate to the Word of God pretty much in the same way, but with obvious differences.

We study the Word of God through its historical context, every word and phrasing in context of the whole Revelation of Scripture. It is a discipline as well, and to avoid breaking the spiritual unity of the Body of Christ, we must make it our responsibility to continually study our faith.

Our historical context of Salvation History Immediately places us in direct conflict with Mormonism. I don’t think you can make any Mormon believe in Catholic doctrine any more than a Catholic can come to believe in Mormon doctrine. They are two distinctly separate cultures, but the former is constructed primarily to invalidate the former.

So you will go around and around and around…If Mormons want to understand our faith, they do need a Catholic guide/mentor. The language of the Catholic Church has changed somewhat in 180 years or so, but I have read 1800’s Mormon texts and the language used today by Mormonism in some ways sounds like it has studied the Catholic Church to a degree, and even presents its teachings more like the Catholic Church as well. The Mormon text of a bygone era in the same time period has quite a different use of language…so there is some working of the Holy Spirit for some kind of unity even though doctrinally it is not being sought by either side.

For example, the contemporary Catholic Church teaches in regards to homosexuality – ‘through no fault of their own’…the same phrasing used in Mormonism in being charitable to the homosexual person and recognizing their innate rights as human beings.

As for myself, I only go so far with my convictions, get my point across, hear theirs, and then tend to back out. I do not think being on a merry go round, and trying to get people to change their opinion on CAF is spiritually fulfilling. We are all given grace. Instead, I take the next step in praying for everyone here.

 

[ParkerD]

Oh I agree that Tyndale did a remarkable job translating into English and yes he was inspired to do it. It was faithful to the manuscripts. But the JST is not inspired and full of “revisions”. Smith changed John 1 which affects the true Doctrine of Jesus Christ.This is why you don’t use it exclusively or even on Sundays. Here’s the dilemma. The lds church teach that only an inspired translation of the bible can be considered absolutely reliable. Smith claimed he produced such a translation. Yet the lds cannot officially accept the JST because it denies some of the doctrines of mormonism. This is the quandary: You can’t totally accept the JST because it contradicts some doctrines taught today. Yet you can’t totally reject the JST because to do so would be to admit Smith was not a true prophet. You claim Smith was inspired to translate, then you turn around and use the KJV. The fact is no Christian group can deny the power of the Holy Bible. There is power in the Word. The Holy Bible stands alone and needs no revisions. This is why the JST can never measure up.

Many lds have told me that Smith never completed the JST. This is untrue. Smith himself said he finished it and that God commanded him to. He also said God commanded him to print it, which didn’t happen.

Why do you print the KJV and only use the JST in the footnotes? Why not print the JST and only use the KJV in the footnotes?

Yankee Drifter,

I suppose that you realize that there are different translations of the Bible, including those used by Catholics and those used by Protestants, so to say that “the Holy Bible stands alone and needs no revisions” would be like saying “we ought to all learn the original languages the Bible was written in so that there will be no questions about translations”–the problem then being that it isn’t necessarily clear what language was the original language for each of the books of the New Testament, whether Greek or Aramaic. Another problem is that there aren’t perfect one-to-one translations for every word or every phrase, from the original language to English, so somebody had to either seek inspiration or guess extremely well which meaning from among the many possibilities was the correct meaning.

I don’t look at the way God works among humankind as a case of “thou shalt not learn by thinking”–so we view the Bible and the Bible translation process and the possibility of “better translations” of individual words or phrases or finding the real meaning when a meaning is obscure, from completely different points of view. But I love the King James Version of the Bible, and am satisfied that the use of the JST footnotes as well as the KJV is the way God inspired that the Bible can be studied to good effect in our day. He can bring about His purposes without the kinds of constraints you seem to have placed upon Him.

By the way, there are no doctrines from the JST that “contradict” Mormon doctrines. It seems someone has misled you in that regard.

… The Truth really does set us free.

Yes, and getting a lot of foolishness in thinking binds one down, even when it’s about Mormon “doctrines” that are all mixed up by poor sources of information, including of course by ex-Mormons who often lead the pack (of course, since they would naturally be inclined to justify their own decisions–that is what people do).

Parker, Christianity never disappeared. The church never left the earth. The Bible clearly teaches that its impossible.

What the Bible does teach is that the true church would be taken “into the wilderness” for a time, and times, and the dividing of time and that the beast and the dragon would be allowed to prevail for that period of times, but certainly not forever; and that there would be a restoration through the pre-planned event of “another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth.”

The Bible teaches that this was all prophesied from Old Testament times, and thus there are purposes behind these things, and God and Christ will be triumphant in Their work.

… The Melchizedek priesthood belongs to Christ alone forever. It was never passed on. Men cannot qualify for this priesthood. Read the qualifications in Hebrews: Without father nor mother, without beginning or end.

The priesthood had no beginning and has no end. Melchizedek held a priesthood that the Levites didn’t hold. Those were Paul’s points in his epistle to the Hebrews, showing that Christ had a priesthood and thus could offer a valid sacrifice even though He was not a Levite.

You have not restored Christianity. What you have done is substituted and added on teachings that are unscriptual.

I assume you mean “Joseph Smith”. Every Mormon teaching is Biblically sound, but many are misunderstood even by ex-Mormons (of course–they want it that way, to justify their decision-making). It’s OK–you have what you want, and I certainly have what I want, and I love the Bible and its teachings and agree with them completely.

You are right. This is just going in circles and I really can’t see the use of continuing this.

Amen to that.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

You misintrepreted Justin’s writings…
‘We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven (spirit) and earth (matter) of all that is seen and unseen.’ That is all Justin was drawing on.

Kathleen Gee,

All I surmise from what you wrote about Justin’s writings is that Catholics have taken his words and made them to mean what they want them to mean–which is to be expected.

Thanks for being so kindly in your posts. You are a remarkable, patient person.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Kathleen Gee,

All I surmise from what you wrote about Justin’s writings is that Catholics have taken his words and made them to mean what they want them to mean–which is to be expected.

Thanks for being so kindly in your posts. You are a remarkable, patient person.

Mormons have done the very same thing.

You think by being kind and patient you can sway others to believe you have the truth and belong to the only true church. Jesus was not kind and patient when he showed a righteous anger. He rebuked the scribes and pharisees often. Called them hypocrites and brood of vipers. He overturned the table of the money changers and lashed out with a whip. Many can come like a sheep in wolf clothing. Satan too can masquerade as an angel of light.

Jesus Christ doesn’t have a “restored” gospel. The original gospel is just fine.

Parker, my prayer is that you will one day see that mormonism is a false religion. Its a 19th century religion, along with many others, whose founder was a man and not Christ.

 

[ParkerD]

Mormons have done the very same thing.

You think by being kind and patient you can sway others to believe you have the truth and belong to the only true church. Jesus was not kind and patient when he showed a righteous anger. He rebuked the scribes and pharisees often. Called them hypocrites and brood of vipers. He overturned the table of the money changers and lashed out with a whip. Many can come like a sheep in wolf clothing. Satan too can masquerade as an angel of light.

Jesus Christ doesn’t have a “restored” gospel. The original gospel is just fine.

Yankee Drifter,

One of the purposes of this life is to learn to become “kind and patient”, so we all ought to learn to do that, and Kathleen does that well.

Jesus had abilities we don’t have, and was the only one who was qualified to judge people’s hearts in the way He did. He also knew the purposes of the temple, and that the Jews had trampled upon those purposes and really had made the temple a “den of thieves” in that they took advantage of the poor and of the sincerity of their desires to worship in the temple and to observe the law of Moses truly.

The “original new covenant gospel” was given by Christ in fulfillment of many, many prophecies of the Old Testament prophets. Those Old Testament prophets also prophesied of a time when the gospel would not remain on the earth, as I noted before. Jesus was aware of those prophecies. He didn’t supersede them. He taught that all the prophecies would be fulfilled. He also taught that God gives and will give people what they desire and pray for. So if you have what you desire and pray for, then you have all the blessings of the new covenant gospel that you want in your life, and who am I to want something different for you than you want for yourself? I don’t want something different for you.

Enjoy what you have according to what you want, and be blessed and be happy by it.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,

One of the purposes of this life is to learn to become “kind and patient”, so we all ought to learn to do that, and Kathleen does that well.

Jesus had abilities we don’t have, and was the only one who was qualified to judge people’s hearts in the way He did. He also knew the purposes of the temple, and that the Jews had trampled upon those purposes and really had made the temple a “den of thieves” in that they took advantage of the poor and of the sincerity of their desires to worship in the temple and to observe the law of Moses truly.

The “original new covenant gospel” was given by Christ in fulfillment of many, many prophecies of the Old Testament prophets. Those Old Testament prophets also prophesied of a time when the gospel would not remain on the earth, as I noted before. Jesus was aware of those prophecies. He didn’t supersede them. He taught that all the prophecies would be fulfilled. He also taught that God gives and will give people what they desire and pray for. So if you have what you desire and pray for, then you have all the blessings of the new covenant gospel that you want in your life, and who am I to want something different for you than you want for yourself? I don’t want something different for you.

Enjoy what you have according to what you want, and be blessed and be happy by it.

Parker I agree that the fruits of the Spirit are love, patience, gentleness etc etc. But when you use it to promote a false religion you are being deceptive. You think you can convert Catholics and the rest of us under the premise of patience. But a true believer in Jesus Christ has the Truth and recognizes falsehood.

The difference between you and I Parker is that for me Jesus Christ is God. This is why I do not tamper with John 1 or any part of the Holy Bible… Joseph Smith demoted Christ and changed John 1. For you, the lds, Jesus is your older brother and also the brother of satan. This the christian church finds blasphemous. Tell me, how can a father also be his son’s brother?

Christ created all things including satan. The you say Christ could not hold the priesthood because he was not of the right tribe. Parker, you fail to realize that Jesus Christ is GOD.

No he was not conceived in the natural literal way ( as taught by your early leaders) through physical relations between God and Mary. You have a problem with the scriptures, don’t you. Where it says Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost and found with child. You have a problem with her being a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. You have an even more serious problem with God having relations in the capacity of husband and wife with His own spirit child.

You fail to realize that your church is a church of men with doctrines of men. You may have the name of Jesus Christ on the wall of your church, but He is really secondary to Mr. Smith and his teachings. Jesus is merely your older brother, once a man like you who progressed through obedience. Your leaders had taught that one couldn’t have salvation without Joe Smith and that he is returning to set up the New Jerusalem.

Parker you can deny and whitewash theses things all you want. But I know mormonism like the back of my hand. And Parker its a cult.

If it takes a righteous anger to expose your church then I will express that anger. You can be as charismatic as you want, but its the charismatics that always start a cult.

God’s Word says to always contend for the faith for there are false prophets that lead the Church astray.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,

Those Old Testament prophets also prophesied of a time when the gospel would not remain on the earth,

No Parker that is not true. That is your interpretation in order to elicit support for your unscriptual beliefs. The Bible actually teaches the opposite. That Christ’s church cannot fail.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker I agree that the fruits of the Spirit are love, patience, gentleness etc etc.

Good. They ought to be lived and enjoyed.

… But a true believer in Jesus Christ has the Truth and recognizes falsehood.

Yes, by seeing “their fruits”. “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” This means they will be repenting and forgiving, loving and learning, and really placing gospel practices into their lives. You can do that, and I can do that, whether we belong to the same denomination or not.

The difference between you and I Parker is that for me Jesus Christ is God.

That is no different than me.

This is why I do not tamper with John 1 or any part of the Holy Bible.

.

You seem to have some misgiving about something about the JST and John 1. I’m not following.?

For you, the lds, Jesus is your older brother and also the brother of satan.

No–Jesus is Alpha and Omega, the Firstborn, so if you don’t believe that, then we don’t agree. I don’t think Jesus is the “brother of Lucifer”. (By the way, Jesus didn’t "create Satan. If you’re really saying God is omnipotent and omniscient, buy yet created Satan, that would mean He not only knew exactly what Satan was going to do in rebelling and all the havoc that would cause in this world, but that as the “First Cause” and being omnipotent He brought about all the subsequent events that followed from the First Cause.)

I can’t help it if you have wrong beliefs about LDS beliefs in your mind. You might as well leave them alone, since it seems one cannot help you figure out their beliefs in a correct manner.

 

[yankee_drifter]

.

You seem to have some misgiving about something about the JST and John 1. I’m not following.?

Joe Smith changed John 1. In stead of Christ being GOD, He changed it to Jesus being of god. Christians know Christ is the WORD. Smith changed Jesus from being the Word to the gospel being the word. The gospel is not the Word, Christ IS. Subtle but noticeable to all True Christians. JST: "in the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. and the gospel was the word and the word was with god and the son was of god.This is similar to the change that the JWs have made. All false religions deny the true deity of Jesus Christ. The mormon jesus was once a man. he is our elder brother and also the brother of the devil.

Please answer this question: how can a father be the brother of his son?? Did not Christ create all things including satan?

 

[ParkerD]

Joseph Smith changed John 1. Instead of Christ being GOD, He changed it to Jesus being of God. Christians know Christ is the WORD. Smith changed Jesus from being the Word to the gospel being the word. The gospel is not the Word, Christ IS. Subtle but noticeable to all True Christians. JST: "in the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. and the gospel was the word and the word was with God and the Son was of God…
Please answer this question: how can a father be the brother of his son?? Did not Christ create all things including satan?

Yankee Drifter,

At least now I understand where you were coming from. Do you agree with the words “the Word was with God. The same was in the beginning with God.”?

If you agree with those words from the King James Translation, then the meaning conveyed is quite similar, particularly in view of verse 14 which Joseph Smith did not change substantively other than to read “the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” Jesus taught, “Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth.” (John 17:17) The gospel is truth–the gospel is “the word”.

I already answered your last question. Satan was an “intelligence” before he was a spirit angel, and he rebelled as a spirit angel and became the devil, the father of lies and deception.

As far as your other question, the relationships are very simple. God the Father is the Father of God the Son, and God the Son was the Firstborn of the Father–long before any other creation, and thus the Son became the Creator through His perfection and His desire and willingness to do the Father’s will in all things. We all became spirits much later in eternal time than Christ did, and we did not have His qualities, but He had the magnificent capacity to love us in such a way that He offered to come to earth to both show the way to live and to be the great and last sacrifice to atone for our sins. That is what His grace is all about.

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,

At least now I understand where you were coming from. Do you agree with the words “the Word was with God. The same was in the beginning with God.”?

If you agree with those words from the King James Translation, then the meaning conveyed is quite similar, particularly in view of verse 14 which Joseph Smith did not change substantively other than to read “the same word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” Jesus taught, “Sanctify them through thy truth; thy word is truth.” (John 17:17) The gospel is truth–the gospel is “the word”.

I already answered your last question. Satan was an “intelligence” before he was a spirit angel, and he rebelled as a spirit angel and became the devil, the father of lies and deception.

As far as your other question, the relationships are very simple. God the Father is the Father of God the Son, and God the Son was the Firstborn of the Father–long before any other creation, and thus the Son became the Creator through His perfection and His desire and willingness to do the Father’s will in all things. We all became spirits much later in eternal time than Christ did, and we did not have His qualities, but He had the magnificent capacity to love us in such a way that He offered to come to earth to both show the way to live and to be the great and last sacrifice to atone for our sins. That is what His grace is all about.

Parker, the Word is Jesus Christ, NOT the gospel. Smith had no right to make this change and you are propagating a lie by endorsing this. The Bible says no man can see God and live. But Smith changed it to no man can see God and live except him that believe. This is calling God a liar. And please don’t tell me that Moses saw God’s face. Read the scriptures again. What Moses saw was the remnant of God’s glory after He had passed. Remember, God had covered Moses’s face otherwise it would have killed him.

Your prophet tampered with God’s Holy Words, but you do not have the courage to admit this, nor do you have the Truth. Otherwise you would see this for yourself. If Smith’s version is the same as the KJV, then why rewrite it? There was nothing wrong with it in the first place.

Satan was never an intelligence. He was created an angel by Jesus Christ, the Word, who created all things.

Parker, I recommend that you put down the writings of your church and pick up the Holy Bible. Read it from cover to cover.

 

[ParkerD]

YD,

I catch your drift. I’m glad you like the KJV. I like it, too, and have read it “cover to cover” at least five times. You’ve pointed out to me that I need to become more familiar with the JST since when you have quoted from it I have not had recall about the verse you have quoted. So, thanks for bringing to my attention that I need more familiarity with it.

You didn’t address my points, don’t seem to have a background in the translation of the Bible into English, and thus there is no point in trying to help you see the possibility of a different perspective than you see, so–have a good week. It’ll be OK, and I’ll be OK, and I’m fine with calling the Savior the Word or with calling the gospel the word. (The latter is used more often in the KJV as a valid word use, than the former. But it’s just not a big deal to me.)

 

[yankee_drifter]

YD,

I catch your drift. I’m glad you like the KJV. I like it, too, and have read it “cover to cover” at least five times. You’ve pointed out to me that I need to become more familiar with the JST since when you have quoted from it I have not had recall about the verse you have quoted. So, thanks for bringing to my attention that I need more familiarity with it.

You didn’t address my points, don’t seem to have a background in the translation of the Bible into English, and thus there is no point in trying to help you see the possibility of a different perspective than you see, so–have a good week. It’ll be OK, and I’ll be OK, and I’m fine with calling the Savior the Word or with calling the gospel the word. (The latter is used more often in the KJV as a valid word use, than the former. But it’s just not a big deal to me.)

No, you didn’t catch my “drift.” Parker. It isn’t a drift to declare that God’s Holy Words must never be tampered with. God will hold those accountable who change His Word. The mormons disrespect the Holy Bible, Your founder said it was corrupted by unscrupulous men and is filled with error. You believe it can only be translated correctly by your church. You have shown that you do not understand how the Holy Spirit works. Remember the day of Pentecost in the upper room? They were all filled with the Holy Ghost instantaneously. It was spontaneous. This is still the same way the Holy Spirit operates in the life of a new Christian. But mormonism began with false premises about the Holy Bible and Christianity, and you continue to believe more falsehood based on a false beginning.

How we treat God’s Word, the Holy Bible, is how we treat God. Thanks for twisting my words. I never said to become more familiar with the JST.

I didn’t address your points because you didn’t really make any substantiated points.

 

[ParkerD]

…You believe it can only be translated correctly by your church. You have shown that you do not understand how the Holy Spirit works. Remember the day of Pentecost in the upper room? They were all filled with the Holy Ghost instantaneously. It was spontaneous…

YD,

I already stated to you, and you seemed to understand, that the LDS church acknowledges that William Tyndale was inspired in his translation of the Bible into English.

The day of Pentecost had a purpose in “how the Holy Spirit works.” It wasn’t “spontaneous”. There were Jewish people in attendance from different places in the general area who spoke different languages, and they observed in amazement as a group of Galileans spoke and taught using the native languages of those Jews, who hadn’t yet accepted the new covenant gospel message.

So the case was that there was a special purpose in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the Galileans speaking in “tongues”, and we find out about that special purpose in Acts 2:37-42 as those non-Galilean Jews (three thousand of them) in attendance there who had not yet "repented’ or “been baptized” or “received the gift of the Holy Ghost,” came to understand those important steps in the gospel covenant after they had been “pricked in their hearts” and had asked the question, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

God knew the hearts of those non-Galilean Jews, just as He knows the hearts of all men and women. They were ready to hear and heed and change their lives. The day of Pentecost was for their benefit and blessing.

 

[swords99]

YD,

I already stated to you, and you seemed to understand, that the LDS church acknowledges that William Tyndale was inspired in his translation of the Bible into English.

The day of Pentecost had a purpose in “how the Holy Spirit works.” It wasn’t “spontaneous”. There were Jewish people in attendance from different places in the general area who spoke different languages, and they observed in amazement as a group of Galileans spoke and taught using the native languages of those Jews, who hadn’t yet accepted the new covenant gospel message.

So the case was that there was a special purpose in the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and the Galileans speaking in “tongues”, and we find out about that special purpose in Acts 2:37-42 as those non-Galilean Jews (three thousand of them) in attendance there who had not yet "repented’ or “been baptized” or “received the gift of the Holy Ghost,” came to understand those important steps in the gospel covenant after they had been “pricked in their hearts” and had asked the question, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

God knew the hearts of those non-Galilean Jews, just as He knows the hearts of all men and women. They were ready to hear and heed and change their lives. The day of Pentecost was for their benefit and blessing.

The day of Pentecost had its special purpose . It gave birth to the Christian church. The coming of the Holy Spirit was a once-for-all event, no more repeatable than Jesus’ birth, death or resurrection. It ushered in the last days (Acts 2:17). But the gift of the Holy Spirit is given to every believer who repents and receives the forgiveness of sins (2:38). In this sense, every true believer has a personal Pentecost at the time of regeneration. I believe this is what yankee was referring to and yes it is spontaneous to receive the indwelling the moment of our spiritual rebirth, which the mormon knows nothing about.

The Holy Spirit comes to indwell us, to apply the benefits of Christ’s death to us and to raise us into newness of life so that Christ’s life may be lived out in us. s God no longer dwells in Temples made by human hands. From Pentecost on, the apostles said to every believer, “Your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit”. The born again believer is now given the power (authority) to be sons of God. This is why a total apostasy is impossible. The authority never left the earth. God always had his faithful remnant who had this authority. This is what Peter was referring to when he said Christians are a royal priesthood. Has nothing to do with certain men being ordained priests but all true christians are “priests” and “ministers.”

Much of what Happened in the NT was a one time thing. The apostles’ mission was a one time mission. This is why we do not need apostles today. We have elders, deacons and evangelists. No hierarchy beyond that was taught by Christ. These elders and deacons are to be men, not boys.

Nor can the Holy Spirit be given to the unregenerate or one who preaches a different gospel. The mormon has never dealt with his sin. He is still “working it out,” still trying to be obedient to many laws and ordinances and still believing there’s no salvation outside his church. As if a church or a man can save anyone. Nor do rules, rites, laws, sacred rituals save anyone. Thus the mormon denies that Christ’s shed blood cleanses us from all sin and yes even the most grievous such as murder which the lds believes Christ’s blood was insufficient and they made up a horrible doctrine called blood atonement.

Only born again believers can receive the Holy Spirit. That is why the unrepentant Jews could not receive this outpouring.

 

[Esdra]

…]
Satan too can masquerade as an angel of light.

Jesus Christ doesn’t have a “restored” gospel. The original gospel is just fine.

Parker, my prayer is that you will one day see that mormonism is a false religion. Its a 19th century religion, along with many others, whose founder was a man and not Christ.

Hi

just my two cents: Satan is, to be accurate, an angel of light (at least he was one before he was cast out from heaven with his angels!).
His Latin Name is Luci-fer which means Light-bringer.

BTW, anyone know the films “Fallen: The Beginning”, “Fallen 2: The Journey” and “Fallen 3: The Destiny”?
Very intersting in this respect. They are good films in my opinion.

Esdra

 

[swords99]

Hi

just my two cents: Satan is, to be accurate, an angel of light (at least he was one before he was cast out from heaven with his angels!).
His Latin Name is Luci-fer which means Light-bringer.

BTW, anyone know the films “Fallen: The Beginning”, “Fallen 2: The Journey” and “Fallen 3: The Destiny”?
Very intersting in this respect. They are good films in my opinion.

Esdra

2 Cor. 11:14 Paul said that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, not that he is one. Satan is a deceiver and that’s one of the ways he deceives us.

Lucifer in Latin means “light bearer." But it means something different in the original Hebrew.

Isaiah 14:12 Satan is called Heylel ben Shakar in Hebrew. Heylel is from a root word that means “to shine” in the sense of foolish boasting or making a show of oneself. It’s really a derrogatory term and is the origin of the title “the shining one."

 

[LongJourney]

My understanding of that Isaiah passage is that it condemns temporal rulers for abusing their power. “Lucifer” is not the devil. He is more like Hitler. However, it gets right back to the crux of the matter, in that abusive rulers are tools of the devil.