Tell me what you think

  • Thread starter Thread starter BRZ
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
B

BRZ

Guest
I have someone who I am close with and really care for but this person lives in a very poor country and she works several jobs just to be able to help feed, and clothe her family and to send her siblings too school. Her father is long gone and her mother can’t work so she supports them. Well, one of the things she does is private strip shows. Now, I understand the situation she is in, but I can’t help but feel it is wrong to do strip shows and a sin and I worry about her soul. I really care for her so I wanted to tell her this. Well I told her that I completely understand why she does what she does but it is something she needs to really think about doing for her future and her future children because I don’t think she would want them to know about this part of her life. I was worried this might cause some form of scandal. She was very upset by what I said. I thought maybe I did something wrong. I told her I wasn’t judging her at all but that continuing to do this sort of thing might compromise her soul or the soul of others and that I would hope she stops doing it when it is no longer necessary for her family.

She was very upset by what I said and refused to talk to me. Now I wonder if I did something wrong? Is it wrong to be concerned with her welfare and to say that to her? I guess she basically felt I was judging her and that how could I say that to her when I have sinned. I tried to tell her that I knew I was a sinner too and I wasn’t judging her or telling her what she should do, just that it could be bad for her to continue with that kind of lifestyle. I don’t know, I am confused and want to know what others think.
 
You didn’t say what country she is in, except that it is a very poor country. It sounds as though she is not able to find suitable work to support her family. Do you know if there is any government help in her country? I wouldn’t condemn what she is doing since, as a mother, she is probably doing whatever she can to care for her children. It would be better if she could get out of that business but she needs to find a way to earn money another way. Is there any organization in your area that could “adopt” her family? If you can offer her another way of caring for her children she’d be able to hold her head up and not even think about stripping. Is the father of the children in the picture at all? Does he help with support, either financial or emotional? This mother needs to know that there are other ways of taking care of her children but she has to be led and not condemned.
 
She is NOT a mother. She is 21 years old, and she supports her mother and her 7 siblings. Her father is gone and so there is not going to be help there. She lives in the Philippines. I do not live in the Philippines and have no idea who can help and honestly I don’t think she wants anyone to help her in that way. She already works several jobs including the stripping.

She does not think what she is doing is wrong at all if it is for her family. I did not try to condemn her at all, I only said that by choosing to do that it could be dangerous for her soul and others too since she is doing strip shows and leading others to sin, those who watch and lust after her, etc. I also said it could be potentially dangerous for her children in the future because she said to me she would have no problem telling her children she did that. I thought that might lead to scandal but I am uncertain.

She seems unwilling to hear at all that what she is doing might be wrong and told me if I can’t accept what she does, she doesn’t want to talk to me but how can I just accept that? I told her I completely understand her and I am not telling her she should stop doing it because it supports her family but I just don’t think it changes the fact that it could be dangerous for her and others and I told her I only say it because I worry about her, is that wrong? The ends do not justify the means, isn’t that what we are taught?
 
Does she understand what sort of immediate physical danger she is in?
You said she does private strip shows, which means she is alone (she might have a driver, but she is certainly alone when she is doing the show) with a man or group of men, who feel aroused, powerful and lustful. And she’s naked. Does she not see how this could be a dangerous situation? Have you talked to her about that? Does she not see how easy it would be for someone to take advantage of her? How would her siblings fare if the unthinkable happened to her? Or if she were to go to jail for this? And, often at the private strip shows, there’s alot of drugs going around, depending on the clientele.
Stripping is good money, and it’s easy money. Hard to walk away from it, especially in her situation. But please, talk to her about the dangers she might be in. There has to be someone closer to her that can help her. I will pray for your friend.
 
From what you’re saying you’ve said to her, it does in fact sound like you’re judging her. If I were her, I would take all the things you said as very judgmental and I would find it hypocritical if after you say all of that to me that you say “I’m not judging you.” Just my 2 cents. If you can help her in some way, then help her, but if you can’t give her or recommend to her a good alternative, then you shouldn’t be judging her or her actions as you have.
 
This is a catch-22.
But to tell her to stop it, without showing her another way to supply ‘basic staples’ for her family is also mis-guided. In those countries the whole family ‘normally’ does what they can for the family as a whole, pooling the funds received.
And to see it another way, the guys watching her are more at fault then she is for seeing it as a way to earn money. And in some of those countries there is no work ‘fitting’ moral aptitudes other then the military (gov’t) or business/farming… the rest plays on human weaknesses.

Even in a country like the USA, how many workers are ‘contributing’ to non-moral aptitudes of those purchasing whatever it is they are making/doing? How far do you want to take this? If the Pope now has cause to look at Global Warming as ‘bad’… we should all stop driving our car, heating our homes, using electricity to type this post, work for no businesses that have a smoke-stack, etc… again, how far do you want to go? We would all have to become small farmers with our own little acre to support our family… then as the family grows, we would have to acquire more acres from someone else… would that be morally right?

Not all countries are morally upright, in fact it’s hard to think of one that is. Some are worse then others, some hide it better then others, but all fit the pattern if you look with critical judging eye’s.

For her, doing what she can for livelihood, is no different then her looking at you and thinking how immoral most of us well to do are in our livelihood. Look full circle!

The best way to see this is to put yourself in her shoes. Go to her country and see what work is there for someone like her. See if there are any moral-upright jobs at all… if not, option one is starve, option two is ???

Life in most 2nd and 3rd world countries is not pretty, that is why the Church says we from a 1st world country should help these. There are missions and Churches all over the world that can only help so many with the funds (and workers) they have… others fall between the cracks. Are we doing our part with our wealth of resources to help those less fortunate? Not only verbally, but with some of our substance?

You did ask what I thought…
 
I’m sorry. I mis-read your thread and thought she was working to support her own children. Anyway, it’s not up to any of us to condemn what she is doing. If she’s stripping in private then she may be putting her life in danger. I don’t know anything about government help in the Philippines but it is possible that the churches in her area may have some kind of help for families. What is her mother doing to care for her children? This girl should not be the one to take care of her siblings. I still feel that it may be possible to find an organizatin (perhaps your own church) that could adopt this family and help with basic needs on an on-going basis.
 
D0UBTFIRE said:
From what you’re saying you’ve said to her, it does in fact sound like you’re judging her. If I were her, I would take all the things you said as very judgmental and I would find it hypocritical if after you say all of that to me that you say “I’m not judging you.” Just my 2 cents. If you can help her in some way, then help her, but if you can’t give her or recommend to her a good alternative, then you shouldn’t be judging her or her actions as you have.
Click to expand...
You can never judge a person but you can CERTAINLY judge their actions and you have good precedence for doing so in Holy Scripture.An evil is NEVER permitted in order to achieve a good.To do so,say so or turn a blind eye is to embrace moral relativism which means there AIN"T NO TRUTH.God will judge her not us but we have a moral responsibilty to gently correct her.Her feelings may be hurt but we have a greater responsibilty for the salvation of her soul.You did the right thing and are fulfilling your responsibility.You yourself could be held accountable for her actions and potential sin if you had kept silent.
 
pigtown said:
I’m sorry. I mis-read your thread and thought she was working to support her own children. Anyway, it’s not up to any of us to condemn what she is doing. If she’s stripping in private then she may be putting her life in danger. I don’t know anything about government help in the Philippines but it is possible that the churches in her area may have some kind of help for families. What is her mother doing to care for her children? This girl should not be the one to take care of her siblings. I still feel that it may be possible to find an organizatin (perhaps your own church) that could adopt this family and help with basic needs on an on-going basis.
Click to expand...
40% of the population here live below the poverty line and there is no government social services type help that western countries (at least Europe) give to help the poor and unemployed. If you have no job then you have no money for food or medical needs. Families depend on each member of the family. Unfortunately that sometimes means unsavoury employment. Don’t judge too harshly.
 
There are some good opinions here and I thank you all for them. I think Soutane has a good point though. I did not judge her! I was only saying what she is doing could be bad for her spiritually. Surely that can’t be wrong? I felt bad for hurting her but I can’t believe that doing something wrong to achieve a good is acceptable. It sets a precedent that is dangerous in my opinion. I fully accept her for who she is but it is hard to accept what she is doing.
 
On another note, I was thinking about what someone else said in this thread. Something along the lines that it was the fault of the people going to watch her strip that were sinning but isn’t it also wrong to lead others to sin? I know it is terrible that a person has to be put into a situation where they must do something unsavoury to support their family but shouldn’t we also think about the implications this may have on other people as well?

Isn’t it scandalous to the people who knows she is doing this? Doesn’t she have at least a small part in taking responsibility for those who lust after her? Isn’t it potentially dangerous for others who might think it is okay to strip to provide a living?

I think about the fact that Jesus forgave Mary Magdalene for her sins as a prostitute but didn’t she stop doing it? This is a difficult subject and I am just trying to find the morally correct answer. I knew people in the past who sold drugs because it was the only thing they could do because of poverty and just no other opportunities in their life and they had to feed their family, but it didn’t make the fact that they were selling drugs a good thing. While stripping may not hurt someone physically it sure can hurt someone spiritually. Is it really all that much different? How can we just pick and choose what is acceptable (even though it is a sin) and what isn’t acceptable when the circumstances might be the same?
 
There is a lot of good advice here. Mine is given with love and care.

Now its time to be on guard. This sounds like a classic set up. Be cool and see where this goes.

If the relationship moves in a direction where you will solve the problem with financial help; you got a problem on your hands. A plane ticket, medical expenses, and now this. Stop me before I sin again.

The Philippians is a number one internet scam location. Story, pictures, age, everything. Its so far out that the woman could even be a man in an internet cafe in Nigeria.

I would be shocked if it was the real deal. Watch this one close.

Okay, I said it. Sorry if I am out of line.
 
Its okay YipYupYep, but that isn’t the circumstances in this case. I have known her for a long time and have never given any money to her nor would I as I don’t have any money to give anyway haha. Thanks for your concern though.
 
BRZ
You are right in trying to prevent her from commiting sin. We have a moral obligation to save Souls. By stripping in front of men she is causing them to commit sin or at least tempting them to. She is sacraficing her eternal salvation by doing this.
Like I said before the sixth Commandment forbids all words (looks and actions) contrary to holy purity the ninth forbids all impure thoughts and desires willfully entertained or concented.to
You were not judging her you were trying to save her Soul because you care about her.
Since she is unhappy with what you told her you have the comfort of knowing that she heard what you had to say who knows you could be the reason for her maybe changing her ways and live a good life and that will go a long way towards you getting to Heaven.

Antrim
 
Thanks for your words Antrim. I only wanted to do the right thing, I didn’t think I was judging her at all and felt bad when she said that because it doesn’t change the fact I care for her despite what she does and I still think her to be a good person and I told her so. I feel better knowing I did the right thing even if it was hard and may make her hate me.
 
BRZ said:
I only wanted to do the right thing, I didn’t think I was judging her at all and felt bad when she said that because it doesn’t change the fact I care for her despite what she does and I still think her to be a good person and I told her so. I feel better knowing I did the right thing even if it was hard and may make her hate me.
Click to expand...
A few more items here: survival has different or no morals at times. Even though, ultimately the conscience condemns the doer… then one has to live with what they did (or seek Christ’s forgiveness). One can hardly think that food or cloths are not part of survival. These are needs! Not wants.

Also, didn’t Christ also want to do the right think? And did it! And yes, you know what the end result was there… they crucified Him. We can call that hate if you like, but it is what is expected, or should be, if one is practicing their Christian Faith.

On a side note, who is at fault, her or the guys? If no girl would do that for $10, the guys would pay $20 to ‘entice’ her to do it. If she would walk away for only $20, they would pay $50… so who is tempting who with what? Yes, she has something the guys want and are willing to pay for it… and she know it. This is part of that ‘full circle’ view one needs to evaluate who is doing what part of the whole event. If we are on moral ground, there should be NO price that will be good enough to make us go against morals… then HUNGER steps into the picture… oops!

Can hunger, or life survival be called a temptation? To do unsavory things to just maintain it? Would it be better to starve to death instead of doing something immoral? Or would it be better to live by ‘survival’ means… only to live with what we have done? I put more blame on the guys with the money who are not in any form of survival, then on her just trying to survive…

Note: Peter denied Christ; the other apostles fled the scene. They later repented. But when times get ‘critical’ what does one do? Peter did what he did so he would not be on a cross next to Christ at that time (survival)… ultimately, what did take Peter? But what all happened in-between?

That’s why I call it a catch-22, no matter which way one goes, the after-effects are not pleasant. We are a mix of body and soul, and at times they are contrary to each other… Which way will one go?

Is it ‘willful’… or is it ‘necessary’… to life essentials?
 
Of course I think that it is a difficult situation which is why I wanted to hear other peoples opinions and of course it is difficult for me, and of course probably most people might do the same thing but Jesus showed us the highest ideals of which we should live our life and that is something we should strive for, is it not? Not everyone is going to give in to money or to selfish desires. You or I may, but I know that not everyone would and your right, Peter may have betrayed Jesus but how did he feel after he did it? Did he not change his life completely and then die for Jesus?
 
Yes, one has to look at what this life is for. Why are you, or I, or anyone, here?

First to ‘know’… then to ‘love’… then to ‘serve’… God.

As you said, “Did he not change his life completely and then die for Jesus?” I say yes! This is the serve part of why we are here.

Each of us should have our own cross to bear, remember, it is by/through Christ we get to salvation, and Christ died for our sins and thereby gaining us forgiveness in God’s eye’s.

We are all given opportunities, many actually, throughout our lives to reach closer to the why we are here. Here the “many are called…” fits… the ‘know’ part. One cannot ‘love’ some illusive dream, it has to be something they know and can feel/touch… He has to become REAL for each of us… then we can ‘love’ Him. As such, ‘serve’ follows naturally from that love.

Yes, her path has been picked; you introduced to her the ‘know’ (as her own conscience will verify)… now, what will happen will depend on her and Him and the ‘love’ that follows.

Looking at it this way, is it really the ‘means and end’ route? Or rather the way God gave us to reach to heaven?!
 
BRZ said:
There are some good opinions here and I thank you all for them. I think Soutane has a good point though. I did not judge her! I was only saying what she is doing could be bad for her spiritually. Surely that can’t be wrong? I felt bad for hurting her but I can’t believe that doing something wrong to achieve a good is acceptable. It sets a precedent that is dangerous in my opinion. I fully accept her for who she is but it is hard to accept what she is doing.
Click to expand...
Really, I see no difference between judging HER actions and judging HER. By passing the judgement that her actions are immoral and telling her so you are passing your judgement of what she does unto her and thus judging HER. Same thing. I’m not saying you’re judging incorrectly neccesarily…I’m saying you ought to see it for what it is. You’re judging her. You’re pointing out her sins, you’re telling her to be careful - she might be sinning. I understand you don’t mean harm by it, you in fact mean good. I get that. That’s not my point. You need to realize that no matter what your good intentions are that you ARE judging her and that that is how it comes across to her. I know you’re not saying that she’s sinful and you’re not because you even mentioned that you said to her that you’ve sinned to. But recognizing your sin doesn’t negate the fact that you’re pointing out hers, and that equals judging, so don’t say to her “I’m not judging you” because it’s in no way true.
 
Again,you are totally wrong.We have an obligation to judge everyones actions in order out of love of God and our fellow man to charitably correct error that can result in damnation.We leave her particular judgement to God as no one can judge anothers soul BUT God.To take your argument to its logical conclusion I have no busines criticising pro abortionists,child molesters or any another wrong doer.Think about it.This man has done this woman a Christian kindness and I’m sure that God will reward him for it.Feelings are not as important as where she will be spending eternity.What he did took moral courage and I admire him for it.The road to hell is paved with good intentions,the desire to be “nice” and not cause “offense” or to hurt someones feelings probably being chief amongst them.I wish that I had the OP’s courage.

I repeat: I admire you BRZ:thumbsup:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top