Telling the difference in clerical garb

[Havard]

When is the “purple” or crimson cassock worn?

Purple - bishops and sometimes monsignors.
Red - cardinals.

 

[shawnbm]

I agree with you. In its strict words so does Canon law. However in many dioceses the deacons are instructed not to wear clerical dress except with special permission (the direct opposite of normal Canon law).
Bishops do have the right to alert Canon law in their own diocese within a fairly broad scope so these variations would probably be found to be within their competence to decide.

I wonder if there are any bishops who frequent these boards who might be able to cast some light on these issues? I would love to hear what a bishop has to say, just to become better educated on these things.

 

[jilly4ski]

When is the “purple” or crimson cassock worn?

The purple and Crimson cassock would be generally worn by a bishop and cardinal respectfully, during liturgical functions, where his black cassock with the colored trimmings are for everyday wear.

In the US, I have never seen a permanent deacon wear a cassock, but I have seen transitional deacons and even seminarians (above a certain study level) wear the cassock. (In some dioceses), it depends on what the bishop allows.

 

[Havard]

I wonder if there are any bishops who frequent these boards who might be able to cast some light on these issues? I would love to hear what a bishop has to say, just to become better educated on these things.

Haha, probably not too often, but you never know!

 

[janeway529]

Also, if you see a priest in a white cassock and he isn’t the Pope Francis or Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, he’s most likely a Norbertine.

 

[jilly4ski]

Also, if you see a priest in a white cassock and he isn’t the Pope Francis or Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, he’s most likely a Norbertine.

LOL, that or from some of the hot climate dioceses, where they can wear white, especially South East Asia.

 

[janeway529]

LOL, that or from some of the hot climate dioceses, where they can wear white, especially South East Asia.

Well, those ones have a colored trim, the Norbertines ones are plain white. The Norbertine Abbot even wears the shoulder cape with his cassock and a pectoral cross, but I don’t think the skullcap is part of his normal wear. He does have a white biretta, though.

 

[JReducation]

Also, if you see a priest in a white cassock and he isn’t the Pope Francis or Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI, he’s most likely a Norbertine.

LOL

Actually, the Claretians wear the same cassock as the pope. St. Anthony Mary Claret was a bishop. So his priests and brothers wear the same cassock as a bishop. In the tropics, they wear it in white. It’s not bleached white. It’s the same white as the pope wears.

 

[Havard]

LOL

Actually, the Claretians wear the same cassock as the pope. St. Anthony Mary Claret was a bishop. So his priests and brothers wear the same cassock as a bishop. In the tropics, they wear it in white. It’s not bleached white. It’s the same white as the pope wears.

Silly me, I thought it was a Dominican habit.

 

[andrewstx]

An Oratorian cassock http://thecatholicbeat.sacredheartradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/oratorians.jpg

Here is a picture of Saint John Baptist de lasalle wearing his rabat, I can’t really find a modern example. http://www.lasallians.lk/images/saint_jhone_baptist_de_la_salle.jpg

The Orartorian cassock looks the same as the Redemptorist cassock and also like the habit of the Franciscan Brothers of the Holy Cross (FFSC) except that the Brothers add a scapular and Franciscan cord.

 

[jilly4ski]

Well, those ones have a colored trim, the Norbertines ones are plain white. The Norbertine Abbot even wears the shoulder cape with his cassock and a pectoral cross, but I don’t think the skullcap is part of his normal wear. He does have a white biretta, though.

I have never seen colored trimmed white cassocks, except on a bishop/cardinal. A priest in those tropical locals would not have any colored trim on his white cassock. Looking at the pictures of the Norbertine, I have noticed that they tend to tie there cassocks at the waist differently using a sash rather than using a normal fascia. Their shoulder cape, also has a hood or the remains of a hood from their monastic tradition.

 

[JReducation]

Thank you, gentlemen. Now I have another question–do only priest (which would include bishops) wear cassocks (whether Roman, French, Jesuit or whatever) or do deacons (be they transitional or permanent) likewise wear them? Thanks.

No. Some congregations of brothers wear cassocks as well. Have you ever seen a picture of St. Andre Besset?

View attachment 19083

Silly me, I thought it was a Dominican habit.

LOL, actually that’s where the papal white came from, St. Pius V who wore his Dominican habit instead of papal robes. And we think that Pope Francis is radical because he won’t wear white knickers or red shoes and wears a Jesuit cassock instead of the “traditional papal Roman cassock”

In all seriousness, I am surprised that some extreme conservative has not jumped on the fact that Pope Francis wears a Jesuit cassock, while popes have worn a Roman cassock since the 19th century.

Here is a modern picture of the French cassock with the rabat. The Christian Brothers still wear it.

View attachment 19082

 

[L_Marshall]

Now, several people have referred to Pope Francis wearing a “Jesuit cassock,” but what he appears to be wearing looks to me like a Roman cassock.

Jesuit cassocks I’ve seen don’t usually button in the same fashion, and usually aren’t closed with the fascia.

Some of the discussion has pointed to how His Holiness’ cassock seems to have a wider cut at the bottom, but I’m unsure if this is the cut of the cassock, or His Holiness’ figure which causes the garment to fall that way.

 

[jilly4ski]

No. Some congregations of brothers wear cassocks as well. Have you ever seen a picture of St. Andre Besset?

View attachment 19083

LOL, actually that’s where the papal white came from, St. Pius V who wore his Dominican habit instead of papal robes. And we think that Pope Francis is radical because he won’t wear white knickers or red shoes and wears a Jesuit cassock instead of the “traditional papal Roman cassock”

In all seriousness, I am surprised that some extreme conservative has not jumped on the fact that Pope Francis wears a Jesuit cassock, while popes have worn a Roman cassock since the 19th century.

Here is a modern picture of the French cassock with the rabat. The Christian Brothers still wear it.

View attachment 19082

LOL, do you think many people can tell the difference? I struggled to find a full length picture that actually included his cassock. Then side pictures are really difficult to see the difference, especially if the man wearing the Roman cassock is a little larger around the middle. I think most distracting, is Francis’ black pants underneath that you can see through the white.

Thanks for the picture of the french rabat.

 

[JReducation]

Now, several people have referred to Pope Francis wearing a “Jesuit cassock,” but what he appears to be wearing looks to me like a Roman cassock.

Jesuit cassocks I’ve seen don’t usually button in the same fashion, and usually aren’t closed with the fascia.

Some of the discussion has pointed to how His Holiness’ cassock seems to have a wider cut at the bottom, but I’m unsure if this is the cut of the cassock, or His Holiness’ figure which causes the garment to fall that way.

Very early in his pontificate, when the media was gaga over the absence of the red shoes, a Jesuit was asked about how Francis dresses. It was a Jesuit major superior, who knows his stuff. He explained to the reporter that the cassock itself is what he called a “compromise” cassock.

Cardinal Bergoglio never wore cassocks except for ceremony. He always wore clerical shirts. As pope, he’s expected to wear a cassock. He chose the “Jesuit cut”. This one does button differently, but the cut is Jesuit. It has two pins in the back and two in the front. This gives it a perfect 60" diameter. They were designed wide so they could ride a horse.

The Jesuits did wear the fascia. The issue with Jesuit dress is that St. Ignatius never provided for this in his constitutions. They played it by ear. Originally, they wore what the Franciscans wear, a tunic, with a cowl and sandals. Then they went into black robes with shoes and gradually the “Jesuit cassock” was born as an adaptation of the narrower Roman cassock. The Roman cassock makes riding difficult, unless you undo the bottom buttons or pull it up.

In the case of Pope Francis you can see the black pants. I think it’s because of the "cheaper quality of the fabric and the construction. White cassocks generally have a lining, like a man’s suit coat. The fabric is heavy so that it falls nicely.

I’ve noticed that when the Holy Father sits, the material is thin and there is no lining, not to mention that he likes to gather it between his knees.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...Fl7kI9QmHCzvlEURGFYJVaAaqGF1tS4mDh_8Swv_ENxl8



See the difference?

 

[jilly4ski]

In the case of Pope Francis you can see the black pants. I think it’s because of the "cheaper quality of the fabric and the construction. White cassocks generally have a lining, like a man’s suit coat. The fabric is heavy so that it falls nicely.

I’ve noticed that when the Holy Father sits, the material is thin and there is no lining, not to mention that he likes to gather it between his knees.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...Fl7kI9QmHCzvlEURGFYJVaAaqGF1tS4mDh_8Swv_ENxl8

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6W0tp5vEl.../with+Benedict+sitting+at+Castel+Gandolfo.jpg

See the difference?

Maybe the Holy Father is a very warm person and is trying to go with light layers so he doesn’t overheat? I luckily don’t have to deal with this, but I think I would die, if I had to wear pants and a lined skirt.

 

[JReducation]

Maybe the Holy Father is a very warm person and is trying to go with light layers so he doesn’t overheat? I luckily don’t have to deal with this, but I think I would die, if I had to wear pants and a lined skirt.

The truth is that most people who push the cassock would never wear such clothing. Let’s take count.

Begin with your typical underwear.

A long sleeve shirt that buttons up to the top. No button can be left undone. Black pants.

A plastic collar attached to a cloth bib. The plastic collar wraps around your neck and pins onto the collar of the shirt.

The cassock, which is constructed like a suit coat, but this one goes down to 3" above the floor. It must be buttoned all the way up to the top.

Now step outside and it’s 95 degrees.

Some people may argue in favor of penance, sacrifice or the fact that it was worn before and no one complained.

There is a value to sacrifice and we all need to do a little more penance. However, we are not in a place to dictate to others what penances and sacrifices they should be doing. At times, it feels as if some people would like to do just that. It begs the question.

What do you personally get out of insisting that a priest wear a cassock instead of a clerical shirt? Forget about what others get.

When we ask ourselves these kinds of questions, we then realize that we are trying to control. This effort to control will often result in frustration. Why not pick another battle?

 

[L_Marshall]

Very early in his pontificate, when the media was gaga over the absence of the red shoes, a Jesuit was asked about how Francis dresses. It was a Jesuit major superior, who knows his stuff. He explained to the reporter that the cassock itself is what he called a “compromise” cassock.

Cardinal Bergoglio never wore cassocks except for ceremony. He always wore clerical shirts. As pope, he’s expected to wear a cassock. He chose the “Jesuit cut”. This one does button differently, but the cut is Jesuit. It has two pins in the back and two in the front. This gives it a perfect 60" diameter. They were designed wide so they could ride a horse.

The Jesuits did wear the fascia. The issue with Jesuit dress is that St. Ignatius never provided for this in his constitutions. They played it by ear. Originally, they wore what the Franciscans wear, a tunic, with a cowl and sandals. Then they went into black robes with shoes and gradually the “Jesuit cassock” was born as an adaptation of the narrower Roman cassock. The Roman cassock makes riding difficult, unless you undo the bottom buttons or pull it up.

In the case of Pope Francis you can see the black pants. I think it’s because of the "cheaper quality of the fabric and the construction. White cassocks generally have a lining, like a man’s suit coat. The fabric is heavy so that it falls nicely.

I’ve noticed that when the Holy Father sits, the material is thin and there is no lining, not to mention that he likes to gather it between his knees.

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/...Fl7kI9QmHCzvlEURGFYJVaAaqGF1tS4mDh_8Swv_ENxl8

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6W0tp5vEl.../with+Benedict+sitting+at+Castel+Gandolfo.jpg

See the difference?

Someone call Sig. Gammarelli! This is getting interesting, and I do see the difference in the cut when it’s viewed from the side.

The truth is that most people who push the cassock would never wear such clothing …] Black pants.

One thing worth mentioning: In traditionally Catholic countries (e.g.: Poland, Italy, et c.) if a priest wears a cassock, he usually wears shorter pants, that only go half way down the calf. This is more for aesthetics, since two hem lines bobbing around each other looks messy, and the priest would wear long black dress socks in this case.
It’s also not uncommon at all to have priests just wear black mesh shorts under his cassock, if it’s very hot.

If you dig enough, you can find pictures of Pope Benedict sitting down, where the shorter pants are visible. I tried briefly, but I was fruitless in my search.

 

[Havard]

The truth is that most people who push the cassock would never wear such clothing. Let’s take count.

Begin with your typical underwear.

A long sleeve shirt that buttons up to the top. No button can be left undone. Black pants.

A plastic collar attached to a cloth bib. The plastic collar wraps around your neck and pins onto the collar of the shirt.

The cassock, which is constructed like a suit coat, but this one goes down to 3" above the floor. It must be buttoned all the way up to the top.

Now step outside and it’s 95 degrees.

Some people may argue in favor of penance, sacrifice or the fact that it was worn before and no one complained.

There is a value to sacrifice and we all need to do a little more penance. However, we are not in a place to dictate to others what penances and sacrifices they should be doing. At times, it feels as if some people would like to do just that. It begs the question.

What do you personally get out of insisting that a priest wear a cassock instead of a clerical shirt? Forget about what others get.

When we ask ourselves these kinds of questions, we then realize that we are trying to control. This effort to control will often result in frustration. Why not pick another battle?

Apologies if this is too much of a tangent, but how hot are typical habits? Are you required to wear certain garments under them, or can you have on shorts and a tshirt?

 

[JReducation]

One thing worth mentioning: In traditionally Catholic countries (e.g.: Poland, Italy, et c.) if a priest wears a cassock, he usually wears shorter pants, that only go half way down the calf. This is more for aesthetics, since two hem lines bobbing around each other looks messy, and the priest would wear long black dress socks in this case.
It’s also not uncommon at all to have priests just wear black mesh shorts under his cassock, if it’s very hot.

We call them trousers. But we don’t mean pants. It comes from the Middle Ages. Trousers were like knickers.

Apologies if this is too much of a tangent, but how hot are typical habits? Are you required to wear certain garments under them, or can you have on shorts and a tshirt?

Monastic habits worn by monks and friars are much cooler. You don’t wear anything under it. It’s your t-shirt and boxers.

You throw the tunic over your head. Some have a cowl attached to the tunic, others have a capuce, like the Dominicans and Carmelites.

In warmer weather, they are made of very lightweight fabric.

Normally, we don’t wear them all the time either. If doing manual labor, you wear a work habit, which is a tunic that goes down above the knees, worn with jeans or grunge clothes.

The easy thing about the habit is that it completely closed. They have a slit at the top to allow you to put your head into the tunic, which you close with a hook and eye. They were designed to be a garment, unlike a cassock which requires that one wear semi formal dress under it.