Temple Endowment

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majick275:
But since alma was a figment of JS imagination and the BoM is a piece of fiction fabricated by a womanizing con man then all o fthis academic. The necromantic rituals performed in LDS “temples” do not accomlpish anything other than the damnation of those who perform them so you needn’t worry.
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The answer to that was given by George A. Smith:

“Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.” (As quoted by Harold B. Lee, “Closing Remarks,” Ensign, Jan. 1974, 125.)
amgid
 
Okay, but really, can I make sure the temple work is never done for me? If it’s too late for me and I’m damned then anyway, that’s fine with me, but I’m guessing that some time, someone would end up doing it, because they wouldn’t know I was damned.
 
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amgid:
The answer to that was given by George A. Smith:

“Many have belittled Joseph Smith, but those who have will be forgotten in the remains of mother earth, and the odor of their infamy will ever be with them, but honor, majesty, and fidelity to God, exemplified by Joseph Smith and attached to his name, will never die.” (As quoted by Harold B. Lee, “Closing Remarks,” Ensign, Jan. 1974, 125.)
amgid
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More false prophets spewing forth lies to dupe the cult members. quit worshipping Joseph smith and his blasphemies. give ALL honor to the ONE true God.
 
Brad Haas:
Okay, but really, can I make sure the temple work is never done for me? If it’s too late for me and I’m damned then anyway, that’s fine with me, but I’m guessing that some time, someone would end up doing it, because they wouldn’t know I was damned.
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Brad,

I would think the answer to your question is “probably not”. In another thread I told of how I became interested in genealogy - through a fifth cousin on my maternal side who is LDS. I was able to do some further research when living in the UK and found an additional 500 or so years of ancestry and I shared it with this cousin, sending her the whole gedcom file on diskette. I knew, at the time, about baptism for the dead in the LDS church (and later learned of the other ordinances that may be performed for the deceased) and assumed that she might use this data to have temple baptisms for all these long dead, very largely Catholic, ancestors. I have to assume that a day may come, when I’m long gone, that someone may have temple work done for me - it’s not very likely since I’m so very far removed from anyone LDS but if someone wanted to take the time, it’s possible.

But I don’t think it’s anything to worry about… I can certainly say that it’s not a theological problem over which I’ve ever lost a bit of sleep!
 
Ben, thanks for your comments. I would just like to make something of a statement while I’m alive that I’m absolutely sure I will never need that temple work.
 
Brad Haas:
Okay, but really, can I make sure the temple work is never done for me? If it’s too late for me and I’m damned then anyway, that’s fine with me, but I’m guessing that some time, someone would end up doing it, because they wouldn’t know I was damned.
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Well, I am afraid I am going to have to disappoint you by saying that that is not possible. As far as I know the Church doesn’t maintain a database of the names of people who have expressed the wish not to have the proxy work done for them after they are dead. (You might like to write to them and suggest it!) In theory that would be possible. With the use of modern computer technology, it is quite possible to maintain such a database, and check the names of all persons submitted for temple work against it, and if one comes up, to reject it. But in practice that would never work, because ultimately the right to perform such an ordinance on behalf of the dead rests with the relatives of the deceased, not with the Church. If in two hundred years from now one of your third generation posterity, or even a distant relative, joined the LDS Church, and decided to do the work on your behalf, the Church would be powerless to stop them, because ultimately it is their right and privilege, not the Church’s. You didn’t seem to believe me when I said that once you are dead, you have no further control over the affairs of this life. That is true. Death breaks the link between the living and the dead. Paul recognized that:

Romans 7:

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
The only exception to this rule is that those who have the sealing power here on earth can perform actions that extend beyond the veil, and can affect the living as well as the dead. Those are the “keys of the kingdom” that the Lord promised to Peter (and to all the Apostles in fact): “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven” (Matthew 16:19; see also 81:18). The LDS Church is the only Church that possesses those keys, and is able to perform actions that affect the living as well as the dead. That is what makes it the true Church!

However, let me assure you that in the event that such an ordinance were performed on your behalf after you were dead, you would have the full opportunity to reject it in the spirit world (and be damned) just as you have here on earth. So you have nothing to fear in that regard. The right of choice is paramount in God’s plan, and operates in the spirit world as much as it does on earth. God does not force anybody to go to heaven. He only provides you with the opportunity. You decide the outcome.

amgid
 
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majick275:
More false prophets spewing forth lies to dupe the cult members. quit worshipping Joseph smith and his blasphemies. give ALL honor to the ONE true God.
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You know how it is majic. You are an apostate from the LDS Church, and you have reverted to an apostate religion, and nobody expects anything different from you. Your venomous, vitriolic, anti-Mormon antics isn’t going to fool anybody.

amgid
 
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amgid:
However, let me assure you that in the event that such an ordinance were performed on your behalf after you were dead, you would have the full opportunity to reject it in the spirit world (and be damned) just as you have here on earth. So you have nothing to fear in that regard. The right of choice is paramount in God’s plan, and operates in the spirit world as much as it does on earth. God does not force anybody to go to heaven. He only provides you with the opportunity. You decide the outcome.

amgid
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amgid,

That last is a good point - and I hope, to that God will give you the chance to repent as well! HA! I am no longer going down that road except in jest… reminds me of a cartoon my brother drew when he was in seminary… a drawing of he and I standing in front of gates that had “HELL” emblazoned across the top with him turning to me and saying, “Well, Ben, I guess there were a few things that we weren’t so right about…”

As to whether or not temple work is done against others wishes I seem to recall reading (let me Google this…) here we go…

jewishgen.org/InfoFiles/ldsagree.html

…ah, it’s not the best bit it will do…

…as I was saying, reading of a Jewish group (also keen on genealogy) that protested the temple work being done for Holocaust victims - which, as the ‘agreement’ at the bottom of that page states is against LDS policy.

I would still think, however, that if a great-grandchild of a Jewish Holocaust survivor converted, there would be no LDS policy against having THEM ask for temple work for their direct ancestors… the complaint seemed to be against a ‘wholesale’ sort of proxy baptisms.
 
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amgid:
You know how it is majic. You are an apostate from the LDS Church, and you have reverted to an apostate religion, and nobody expects anything different from you. Your venomous, vitriolic, anti-Mormon antics isn’t going to fool anybody.

amgid
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pot…kettle…venomous, vitriolic,etc.
I am not trying to “fool” anyone. Just the opposite in fact. I proclaim the true Gospel and promote the church that Jesus founded. That would be the Catholic church. For you to come to Catholic answers and call Catholicism an apostate religion shows your agenda. I don’t know who you think YOU are fooling but the days of conning people into JS cult seem to be dwindling. The LDS church has been exposed and the REAL numbers reveal it’s impending decline. While you may continue performing your masonic rituals so you can learn the “secret” handshakes and keywords that let you enter into heaven where you hope to get a silent, submissive harem the CHRISTIANS will worship God and be gathered up by him into the real heaven.
 
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ben_dy:
I would still think, however, that if a great-grandchild of a Jewish Holocaust survivor converted, there would be no LDS policy against having THEM ask for temple work for their direct ancestors… the complaint seemed to be against a ‘wholesale’ sort of proxy baptisms.
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Yes, that is correct. The direct descendent of the deceased have the final say. They decide. No other group or society has the right to override their decision.

amgid
 
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majick275:
pot…kettle…venomous, vitriolic,etc.
I am not trying to “fool” anyone. Just the opposite in fact. I proclaim the true Gospel and promote the church that Jesus founded. That would be the Catholic church. For you to come to Catholic answers and call Catholicism an apostate religion shows your agenda. I don’t know who you think YOU are fooling but the days of conning people into JS cult seem to be dwindling. The LDS church has been exposed and the REAL numbers reveal it’s impending decline. While you may continue performing your masonic rituals so you can learn the “secret” handshakes and keywords that let you enter into heaven where you hope to get a silent, submissive harem the CHRISTIANS will worship God and be gathered up by him into the real heaven.
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The LDS Church is true. The early Christian church apostatized. The true Church of God has now been restored on earth. It is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is led by true prophets and Apostles as the ancient church used to be.

amgid
 
Then why has the LDS church time and time again made false claims (BoA, Lamanites as principal ancestors of American indians, False prophecies of JS,etc.) had to change its doctrine and practices time and again (polygamy secret, polygamy open and only way to get exaltation, polygamy bad, Adam-God is doctrine, Adam-God is fales doctrine, Temple Ceremony changes, changes again, and again, Elijah Abel ordained elder, No priesthood for Black people, Priesthood for every worthy male) changed it’s scriptures (BoM, D&C, JST) changed it’s teachings (too numerous to list them all)? Just what exactly IS the CoJCoLDS doctrine that is supposedly “true”?
When and how did the Christian church apostatize? No date is claimed by LDS, No specific examples of early Christians actively practicing distinct LDS beliefs has ever been given. No examples of the Catholic church deviating from NT Christianity has been given. We have only JS word on a “restoration”. He himself disredited many of his “witnesses”. True prophets? Which one? JS has been proven to be a lying,womanizing con man. (secret polygamy, Kirtland bank, Nauvoo government, etc.) Brigham Young? His teachings have been denounced by multiple LDS “prophets”. Apostles? like the ones the LDS themselves exed? How about the teachings of Mark petersen? or Bruce Mconkie? those have been discredited by LDS. I’m still looking for the biblical support for Christ church being led by the LDS style “prophet”, first presidency, etc. What I found is the book of Hebrews rejecting this. I also see all through the NT the church being established the “Catholic” way. The Apostles ordaining Bishops who ordained other Bishops in an unbroken line to the present. I see the Bible promising us that the gates of hell would not prevail against Christs church and that God would be with us always. This is in contrast to the JS assertion that Christ church on earth “failed” and was removed for 1800 years, leaving the whole earth in spiritual darkness. The LDS “testimony” is a wild claim that then results in a straw grasping attempt to spin the facts into such way that Mormonism COULD be true. We can all see that it’s not. Gordon Hinkley tries to distance from the ridiculous claims of JS but ends up looking dishonest at best. Your Temple rituals change to try to appear less offensive or at least less silly but come on now… Tokens and Keywords to pass the sentinels that guard heaven? I think not. God will judge everyone and he will gather his followers into heaven. No secret handshakes or passwords. The Bible tells us the true Gospel. The BoM contradicts LDS doctrine(and is easily proven false through science). The D&C contradicts itself and the BoA is an OBVIOUS fraud.I realize that is the Mormon way to keep repeating that unfounded testimony until you convince yourself through subjective emotion that it’s true. That won’t convince anyone here that up is really down or anything else. It won’t help you with God either. You can see the truth, you just don’t want to acept it. Satans appeal to pride…everyone can be a God and have their own kingdom and eternal increase… Humble yourself before God. Worship him, as GOD, the ONLY GOD…ever. Repent and be baptized. It’s not too late.
 
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majick275:
Then why has the LDS church time and time again made false claims (BoA, Lamanites as principal ancestors of American indians, False prophecies of JS,etc.) had to change its doctrine and practices time and again (polygamy secret, polygamy open and only way to get exaltation, polygamy bad, Adam-God is doctrine, Adam-God is fales doctrine, Temple Ceremony changes, changes again, and again, Elijah Abel ordained elder, No priesthood for Black people, Priesthood for every worthy male) changed it’s scriptures (BoM, D&C, JST) changed it’s teachings (too numerous to list them all)? Just what exactly IS the CoJCoLDS doctrine that is supposedly “true”?
When and how did the Christian church apostatize? No date is claimed by LDS, No specific examples of early Christians actively practicing distinct LDS beliefs has ever been given. No examples of the Catholic church deviating from NT Christianity has been given. We have only JS word on a “restoration”. He himself disredited many of his “witnesses”. True prophets? Which one? JS has been proven to be a lying,womanizing con man. (secret polygamy, Kirtland bank, Nauvoo government, etc.) Brigham Young? His teachings have been denounced by multiple LDS “prophets”. Apostles? like the ones the LDS themselves exed? How about the teachings of Mark petersen? or Bruce Mconkie? those have been discredited by LDS. I’m still looking for the biblical support for Christ church being led by the LDS style “prophet”, first presidency, etc. What I found is the book of Hebrews rejecting this. I also see all through the NT the church being established the “Catholic” way. The Apostles ordaining Bishops who ordained other Bishops in an unbroken line to the present. I see the Bible promising us that the gates of hell would not prevail against Christs church and that God would be with us always. This is in contrast to the JS assertion that Christ church on earth “failed” and was removed for 1800 years, leaving the whole earth in spiritual darkness. The LDS “testimony” is a wild claim that then results in a straw grasping attempt to spin the facts into such way that Mormonism COULD be true. We can all see that it’s not. Gordon Hinkley tries to distance from the ridiculous claims of JS but ends up looking dishonest at best. Your Temple rituals change to try to appear less offensive or at least less silly but come on now… Tokens and Keywords to pass the sentinels that guard heaven? I think not. God will judge everyone and he will gather his followers into heaven. No secret handshakes or passwords. The Bible tells us the true Gospel. The BoM contradicts LDS doctrine(and is easily proven false through science). The D&C contradicts itself and the BoA is an OBVIOUS fraud.I realize that is the Mormon way to keep repeating that unfounded testimony until you convince yourself through subjective emotion that it’s true. That won’t convince anyone here that up is really down or anything else. It won’t help you with God either. You can see the truth, you just don’t want to acept it. Satans appeal to pride…everyone can be a God and have their own kingdom and eternal increase… Humble yourself before God. Worship him, as GOD, the ONLY GOD…ever. Repent and be baptized. It’s not too late.
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Amen!
 
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majick275:
Humble yourself before God. Worship him, as GOD, the ONLY GOD…ever. Repent and be baptized. It’s not too late.
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i wonder why the people who had the truth in the book of mormon and then went away from the truth were always the worst people much worse in fact than those who never had the truth. if we are wrong we hurt no one. if we are right we save millions maybe you should pray for us poor sinners and then spend time working in your church more maybe dedicate your christmas to the poor or visit the sick. i think you may get further in your faith by doing that than by trying to pull others down.
 
If you are wrong you hurt MANY. All of those innocent children, the unwary who are deceived. How can you say that a false religion is harmless? I do pray for myself and all other sinners. I am working in my church right here. What do you think Catholic Answers is? It certainly isn’t an LDS missionary tool. I’m certainly not pulling anyone down, I’m trying to share the truth with them. (and you) I’m not trying to “advance” or “get far” in my faith either. It’s not a contest, I’m just trying to live it. When People come to Catholic Answers they should get them, NOT LDS answers. Since I restrict my efforts to Catholic sites I could make your argument that if wrong I hurt no one and if right I save many… But then that isn’t a valid argumetn either way. There is one God, one church and one gospel. I try to share it in a place where those seeking it are likely to look.
 
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majick275:
If you are wrong you hurt MANY. All of those innocent children, the unwary who are deceived. How can you say that a false religion is harmless? I do pray for myself and all other sinners. I am working in my church right here. What do you think Catholic Answers is? It certainly isn’t an LDS missionary tool. I’m certainly not pulling anyone down, I’m trying to share the truth with them. (and you) I’m not trying to “advance” or “get far” in my faith either. It’s not a contest, I’m just trying to live it. When People come to Catholic Answers they should get them, NOT LDS answers. Since I restrict my efforts to Catholic sites I could make your argument that if wrong I hurt no one and if right I save many… But then that isn’t a valid argumetn either way. There is one God, one church and one gospel. I try to share it in a place where those seeking it are likely to look.
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so you would perfer to talk to yourself i supose that would be comfatable for you. false religion well i know which one is right and my friend its not yours. we are here to counter your rather biased view of our church if you would pefer just to talk to people who have lost there faith to leaded them in to falsehoods well thats just a shame because we are under an obligation to warn the world of the result of transgression even if you don’t want to hear it. thats then your problem. we witness of christ we teach of christ we follow after christ. there were many lawyer trying to confuse the simple truth with there use of words. a bit risky proclaiming your new church is true whats going to happen when you find something you don’t agree with are you going to renounce your views and repent of them a second and a third time.
 
paul barlow:
so you would perfer to talk to yourself i supose that would be comfatable for you. false religion well i know which one is right and my friend its not yours. we are here to counter your rather biased view of our church if you would pefer just to talk to people who have lost there faith to leaded them in to falsehoods well thats just a shame because we are under an obligation to warn the world of the result of transgression even if you don’t want to hear it. thats then your problem. we witness of christ we teach of christ we follow after christ. there were many lawyer trying to confuse the simple truth with there use of words. a bit risky proclaiming your new church is true whats going to happen when you find something you don’t agree with are you going to renounce your views and repent of them a second and a third time.
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All Christians are under obligation to share the gospel. The Catholic church is directed by God to teach the true Gospel and to speak out against heresy. I understand that you think you have the truth and are just trying to do the same. It is WHAT you teach about Christ that I feel is in error. Your witness about the BoM and JS is also in my opinion a dangerous error. I think many great harms to a great number of people have resulted from following JS and BY. I was born into the LDS church and thus didn’t know any better. I did a LOT of studying and praying in my search for the truth. I don’t see any risk at all in declaring that the Catholic church is the one that God established. I made an informed decision to join. The RCIA program and the catechism prepared me for this. There were no “surprises” about church teachings, practices, etc. I could see for myself that is compliant with scripture. I didn’t have to “wait and see” on anything. (unlike the LDS Temple) I am not waiting here for those who have lost faith and I certainly haven’t spread any falsehoods about mormonism. As for biased views… surely you don’t claim to present objective facts about mormomism. You start from the premise of “knowing” the LDS church is true based on your testimony. A purely subjective emotional state. From this you look for ways to fit what you find into that. I think the fact that the LDS church has revised its own history and scriptures and then punished its own historians when they tried to reveal the truth demonstrates that an thorough investigation into the actual development of LDS doctrine does not lead to a firm belief in the LDS church. I have heard so many Mormons proclaim that they “knew” their church was true without really knowing just what their church was or what it really taught. We can see that many of the claims of JS and BY are absolutely false. We can look at the actual practices (their harmful effects) that the LDS church engaged in under the direction of these “prophets” and see the false doctrines that they taught
I just want the REAL truth to be known
 
paul barlow:
so you would perfer to talk to yourself i supose that would be comfatable for you. false religion well i know which one is right and my friend its not yours. we are here to counter your rather biased view of our church if you would pefer just to talk to people who have lost there faith to leaded them in to falsehoods well thats just a shame because we are under an obligation to warn the world of the result of transgression even if you don’t want to hear it. thats then your problem. we witness of christ we teach of christ we follow after christ. there were many lawyer trying to confuse the simple truth with there use of words. a bit risky proclaiming your new church is true whats going to happen when you find something you don’t agree with are you going to renounce your views and repent of them a second and a third time.
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Paul,

You and I and many others who contribute to these forums (I won’t say all because many come here in search of the truth) all believe, with all sincerity and with every part of our minds, bodies, and souls and using all of the gifts which God has given us, including our gift of reason and our our gift of faith, that we have found the Truth. And those of us who are Catholic and those who are LDS make an even more specific claim - that of being the one Church established by Christ. There are a few other churches which fall under the Christian umbrella that make this claim as well but these are the two in which my interest lies. Those of us who are Catholic believe just as strongly as those who are LDS and just as much as I would love to see you and ALL other LDS folks here come into the Catholic Church - and just as much as I’m sure that you wish that we Catholics would come into the LDS church, the real fact it that is unlikely for either to happen.

I keep a small card which I use as a bookmark in my volumes of prayers called the Liturgy of the Hours and it has a list of all of those whom I am praying for specifically - those that I feel a need to be ‘called by name’ in my daily prayer intentions. Sometimes I’ll go weeks with the same names, some weeks it takes an extra card, some weeks peoples names drop off (for various reasons - usually because, for instance, they were sick but are now better) and some names have been on my ‘intentions list’ that have been on there since I was a child (my family, for instance, and that’s one line unless one of the other is in particular need - THEN they get a line of their own!). Sometimes my prayers are for all who believe in Christ to see the truth of His Holy Catholic Church and sometimes I have specific requests for specific people. There are people here on that list - Catholic and non-Catholic - and I know (boy, do I wish I had the words to express just HOW I know) that I have had people here pray for me. Now while I know, for instance, that amgid may not WANT to be on my ‘list’, he is - and for several reasons - and I may well be on amgid’s list: the point is this - if I am wrong and you and amgid are right, I hope - sincerely - to be in your prayers and if I am right and that which you and amgid share is wrong then I hope - sincerely - that you wish me no ill if I pray for you. Should it turn out that we’re BOTH wrong I know one thing that we can agree on, I think, and that is that there is a God and I think we can agree that He is a God who listens to prayer and that He would be pleased that we are praying for one another just as He is pleased when we honor Him and give Him thanks and glory for all the graces that He has given us.

I will continue, however I can, to defend the Catholic faith just as I expect you and other LDS to defend the Mormon faith. But I don’t fool myself into thinking that I, alone, can bedazzle you with my brilliant and infallible theology so much that you will convert to Catholicism anytime soon. YEARS ago - when, basically, all we had for ‘chat’ was USENET - I learned that it was highly unlikely to see a sudden ‘conversion’ in cyberspace: not because there are not good discussions going on and certainly not for lack of information, but simply because this media lacks tactile interaction. But the reason I kept going back (way back then!) was because I made ‘friends’ from all over the world - some of whom I visited, some of whom I keep in touch, and some whom - SHOCK! - DID convert… but only because seeds were planted over the course of years, not because of any epiphany that one message brought.

…continued…
 
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