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majick275
Guest
Oh i’m not recomending the book, just the online excerpt there. It has some interesting facts.
- Status
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paul_barlow
Guest
honest question. why are you spending so much time studying books on our church. As you are keen to point out you believe we are a false church. whould your time not be better served studying your churchs teaching to the same depth
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ben_dy
Guest
Gosh, maj, you’re right - there WAS originally a question about Temple Endowments, wasn’t there? I take full responsibility for going off-topic and I believe that the original question has been answered so I’ll ask one pertaining to “Temple Endowments” (plural) - just how many temple endowments are there? Or is it even proper to call work done for the deceased endowments?
Priesthood
Marriage
Baptism for the deceased
Marriage sealing for the deceased
Sealing children (deceased) to parents (deceased)?
Rare (but occasional) “second sealings”? (may not be the right terminology and only something that I’ve read of here and there)
…any others?
Also I think that some Catholics (because I count myself among that group but no longer) are confused about the differences between “endowments” and “ordinances” and wonder how either would find parallels in Catholic Sacraments.
There was a question, I recall, that I asked my elderly LDS male friend about - this was YEARS ago - in trying to understand the wearing of temple garments. I compared it to my wearing of the Brown Scapular but, after a few minutes of conversation, we both realized that I was off base but that there was one similarity.
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majick275
Guest
technically the term endowment refers to the whole series of Temple ordinances. What is normally called “the endowment” is also referred to as the Temple ceremony. Within the LDS temple there are “regular” ordinances that can be performed vicariously for the deceased. Those are baptism, confirmation and priesthood ordination.
Then there are ordinances that must be performed in temples for the living AND the dead. Those include the initiatory ordinance (washing and anointing, clothing in the garment of the holy priesthood), the “endowment” or Temple ceremony where one makes their temple covenants, learns the various tokens, signs and keywords including a “new name” and receives instruction in the creation of the world and the “true order of prayer”. There is also in this category the sealing ordinance which covers temple marriage and also seals children to parents if they were not born “under the covenant”. (including adoptions)
That’s pretty much it for most folks. Some will also receive the “second anointing” if their calling and election is made sure. (usually just general auhtorities) this starts in the temple but is completed in the home.
In the event that an “endowed” individual is excommunicated and later returns to the LDS church they may receive the “restoration of blessings” ordinance that restores their previous temple covenants, etc.
All endowed LDS are expected to wear their Temple garments at all “reasonable” times. (you can remove it to change, bathe, swim,have marital relations, etc.) They are a constant reminder of ones Temple covenants and also are claimed to provide a level of “protection” from harm. (some claim physical some spiritual some both)
Priesthood “ordinances” include all of the above(remember baptism and confirmation for the living are NOT done in the temple) as well as anointing the sick, blessing and distributing the “sacrament” (symbolic eucharist without the real presence), general blessings (a child starting school, a person going through difficult times, etc.), patriarchal blessings (a specific office “patriarch” gives a “revelation” type blessing to an individual that is recorded and given to them and is similar to the old testament blessings like Jacob gave his sons) this is to guide the individual throughout their life and is considered a personal “scripture” by most. (a revelation from God that applies just to that person). There are also the various preisthood ordinations, first the conferring of either the aaronic or melchisadec priesthood then the ordaining to specific offices (deacon, priest, elder, etc.) there is also the ordinance of being “set apart” for a specific “calling” like counselor in the bishopric or young men’s president.
I think that covers the ordinances both in and out of the temple.
Then there are ordinances that must be performed in temples for the living AND the dead. Those include the initiatory ordinance (washing and anointing, clothing in the garment of the holy priesthood), the “endowment” or Temple ceremony where one makes their temple covenants, learns the various tokens, signs and keywords including a “new name” and receives instruction in the creation of the world and the “true order of prayer”. There is also in this category the sealing ordinance which covers temple marriage and also seals children to parents if they were not born “under the covenant”. (including adoptions)
That’s pretty much it for most folks. Some will also receive the “second anointing” if their calling and election is made sure. (usually just general auhtorities) this starts in the temple but is completed in the home.
In the event that an “endowed” individual is excommunicated and later returns to the LDS church they may receive the “restoration of blessings” ordinance that restores their previous temple covenants, etc.
All endowed LDS are expected to wear their Temple garments at all “reasonable” times. (you can remove it to change, bathe, swim,have marital relations, etc.) They are a constant reminder of ones Temple covenants and also are claimed to provide a level of “protection” from harm. (some claim physical some spiritual some both)
Priesthood “ordinances” include all of the above(remember baptism and confirmation for the living are NOT done in the temple) as well as anointing the sick, blessing and distributing the “sacrament” (symbolic eucharist without the real presence), general blessings (a child starting school, a person going through difficult times, etc.), patriarchal blessings (a specific office “patriarch” gives a “revelation” type blessing to an individual that is recorded and given to them and is similar to the old testament blessings like Jacob gave his sons) this is to guide the individual throughout their life and is considered a personal “scripture” by most. (a revelation from God that applies just to that person). There are also the various preisthood ordinations, first the conferring of either the aaronic or melchisadec priesthood then the ordaining to specific offices (deacon, priest, elder, etc.) there is also the ordinance of being “set apart” for a specific “calling” like counselor in the bishopric or young men’s president.
I think that covers the ordinances both in and out of the temple.
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ben_dy
Guest
paul barlow:
Reading LDS material has only been a hobby since I came about here - so that was about 5 months ago, I suppose. As I’ll soon turn 68 and I’ve not, at all, given up reading my church’s teachings - old and new alike. But I have enjoyed reading about a variety of different religions and having spent some time in Israel, for instance, became engrossed first with Chassidic Judaism and then, later, Islam. One branch of the Christian religion of which I know little is ‘mainstream protestantism’ and I suppose that has not become a hobby simply because it seems so vast - while I’m conversant in the theology behind many of these churches (from Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, etc. - the ‘mainstream’ church fathers of protestant theology) I never really moved much further past, for instance, the Wesley brothers.
I’ve also read some Eastern religions, but not a great deal. I have read more Biblical text criticism than I really care to admit and know enough Greek so as not to be shame-faced should a fundamentalist thrust at me with a “and you know what they means in the Greek, don’t you?” parry but I’m ashamed to say that I know no Hebrew at all (well - almost none - I can ‘get around’ in Tel Aviv but don’t even try me to read the first verse in Genesis!).
So I read a great deal about my own religions and about others as well and I freely admit that I am not looking for a different path or searching to convert to another religion but am interested in how other beliefs both parallel or are diametrical to my own beliefs.
Yes, it is true that I believe - with every ounce of my mind, body, and spirit, that what is today called the Roman Catholic Church is the true and only Church established by Christ and that it has survived not through the goodness of man but through the protection of God. In that you believe the same of the LDS church we are - there - diametrical to one another (or our beliefs are). I think I explained, somewhat, in a previous message about why I’m not overly concerned about the differences and that my wish is to understand other’s doctrines not so that I will come to believe it but simply understand it so that I will not make false presumptions. I am not in a position of those who have seen ‘both sides of a coin’ - that is, I was born and remain Catholic and will die Catholic. But, again, I think I at least touched on this in that previous message.
So does that help to answer the question somewhat? I should also mention that I am retired, widowed, and lately in not-so-great health so keeping my mind occupied - as I cannot get out and be as active physically as I wish - is of great importance to me and nothing is as stimulating to me as is God. I can assure you, however, that if a batch of newly discovered ECF or Greek MS from NT times were found tomorrow I would be ‘off’ the LDS church and jumping at that in a moment. And then - when done there - I would likely pick right up where I left off learning about the LDS church.
Me? Honest answer: I find both the history and the doctrines fascinating and - while this may seem odd to non-American LDS I find it even more fascinating because it seems a uniquely American religion in more ways than I can really explain (and in more ways than I, truly, comprehend at this point).
Reading LDS material has only been a hobby since I came about here - so that was about 5 months ago, I suppose. As I’ll soon turn 68 and I’ve not, at all, given up reading my church’s teachings - old and new alike. But I have enjoyed reading about a variety of different religions and having spent some time in Israel, for instance, became engrossed first with Chassidic Judaism and then, later, Islam. One branch of the Christian religion of which I know little is ‘mainstream protestantism’ and I suppose that has not become a hobby simply because it seems so vast - while I’m conversant in the theology behind many of these churches (from Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, etc. - the ‘mainstream’ church fathers of protestant theology) I never really moved much further past, for instance, the Wesley brothers.
I’ve also read some Eastern religions, but not a great deal. I have read more Biblical text criticism than I really care to admit and know enough Greek so as not to be shame-faced should a fundamentalist thrust at me with a “and you know what they means in the Greek, don’t you?” parry but I’m ashamed to say that I know no Hebrew at all (well - almost none - I can ‘get around’ in Tel Aviv but don’t even try me to read the first verse in Genesis!).
So I read a great deal about my own religions and about others as well and I freely admit that I am not looking for a different path or searching to convert to another religion but am interested in how other beliefs both parallel or are diametrical to my own beliefs.
Yes, it is true that I believe - with every ounce of my mind, body, and spirit, that what is today called the Roman Catholic Church is the true and only Church established by Christ and that it has survived not through the goodness of man but through the protection of God. In that you believe the same of the LDS church we are - there - diametrical to one another (or our beliefs are). I think I explained, somewhat, in a previous message about why I’m not overly concerned about the differences and that my wish is to understand other’s doctrines not so that I will come to believe it but simply understand it so that I will not make false presumptions. I am not in a position of those who have seen ‘both sides of a coin’ - that is, I was born and remain Catholic and will die Catholic. But, again, I think I at least touched on this in that previous message.
So does that help to answer the question somewhat? I should also mention that I am retired, widowed, and lately in not-so-great health so keeping my mind occupied - as I cannot get out and be as active physically as I wish - is of great importance to me and nothing is as stimulating to me as is God. I can assure you, however, that if a batch of newly discovered ECF or Greek MS from NT times were found tomorrow I would be ‘off’ the LDS church and jumping at that in a moment. And then - when done there - I would likely pick right up where I left off learning about the LDS church.
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ben_dy
Guest
I did a copy and paste of what was there - I simply cannot turn down ‘free’ reading material!
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amgid
Guest
If you are interested in that kind of thing, and have the time and patience to finish it, it is a worthwhile read. I have read most of it. I bought a complete set many years ago (when it was cheap!) and read most of the volumes; and then I got bored and didn’t finish it. Then as a result of my many travels I had to get rid of it because I couldn’t carry around so much excess baggage. If I had them I would have given them to you for free! What you have found seems to be a computerized version, which makes for a difficult read on the computer. Even if you can get good prints from it, it won’t be an easy read, as there are so many pages and volumes. It seems more useful for research than for general reading. Have you read the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith? That is a much smaller read, and more interesting.
A good, objective biography, of the kind that you are looking for, is Joseph Smith: The First Mormon, by Dona Hill. I recommend it. It is a good book.
amgid
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amgid
Guest
ben_dy said:
There are many ordinances performed in LDS temples, of which only one is called the endowment. There is only one endowment.
That is an interesting observation. The Catholic Church has traditionally recognized seven sacraments. I presume it is the same with the Orthodox Church. With the Reformation, the Protestants rejected all but two of the Catholic Sacraments, and greatly altered the significance of those two. Subsequently, Protestantism itself splintered off into many sects and denominations, some of whom appear to have no sacraments at all. The LDS Church is unique in the post-Reformation era not only to revert back to the original “sacramental definition” of religion pretty close to the Catholic form; but they have even more sacraments than the Catholic Church does. I haven’t made the attempt to count them; but if you include patriarchal blessings, ordinations to all the various offices of the priesthood (from deacons to the President of the Church, each of which is strictly speaking a separate sacrament), plus all the temple ordinances, then I would say we have around three times as many sacraments as the Catholic Church does! Now you can’t beat that for the true church can you!
amgid
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majick275
Guest
I’ll agree with amgid that “the teachings of the prophet joseph smith” is a good read that is very informative. JoD really deals more with the BY era of the LDs church. I disagree though that it is difficult to get through. (depends on what interests you) While JS founded the LDS church, BY presided over it longer and during a time of developing much of the “practical” structure and procedures of the LDS church. I think JS (with much (name removed by moderator)ut from sidney rigdon) provided the basic beliefs, BY filled in many of the details.
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paul_barlow
Guest
thats why we have continuing revelation.
you seem to have most of the facts on what happens in the temple correct. so again were are our secrets or are you ready to accept your previous statement was wrong
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paul_barlow
Guest
no that one was aimed at another but i found your answer very intresting and open minded again well done.
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majick275
Guest
paul barlow:
I deliberately left out the specifics of the Temple ordinances, do you want to discuss them? I stand by my previous statement.
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paul_barlow
Guest
upto you i may not respond if you go to far
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jim1130
Guest
paul barlow:
Sounds like a fraternity ritual from college with threat of explusion if secrets of the initiation rites are revealed.
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paul_barlow
Guest
then you don’t now what your talking about pal.
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majick275
Guest
I have no problem discussing anything about the Temple with anyone who has a sincere interest. I don’t want to do it just be inflammatory though. Paul, I’m not gonna go there with you unless you want. You decide what you are willing to discuss and then I’ll respond.
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majick275
Guest
Well it’s not as bad as it used be but yeah it’s similar.
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paul_barlow
Guest
feel free to talk about most things just refrain from those we are unable to talk about ie the keys signs and names.
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jim1130
Guest
paul barlow:
Then enlighten me.
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paul_barlow
Guest
lookin on the discussion with mjick you may find it intresting. if you are intrested try to get hold of a book called the holy temple. or look up
Code:
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