Temple Secrets?

  • Thread starter Thread starter August
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A

August

Guest
Mormons, I’m sure you’ve gotten this before. How do you deal with the fact that many of the things your church teaches are revealed only to “worthy” Mormons who’ve gotten into the Temple? Do you feel there is a good reason to keep some things secret? Is it moral to convert people without telling them everything you believe?
 
Joseph Smith was a Mason, and apparently too lazy to invent anything for his new religion when he could just copy Masonic rituals, oaths, etc.

Joseph Smith made sure that just about every Mormon man in Nauvoo also become a Mason, and his Mormon Lodge was starting to outnumber all the rest of the Illinois non-Mormon Masons (who were not at all pleased with Joe’s recruiting efforts), when he was shot.

Story is that Smith recognized quite a few Masons in the crowd at the jail, and was leaning out the window giving the Grand Masonic Hailing Sign of Distress when they shot him.
 
The LDS temple ceremonies, temple garments, secret handshakes, blood oaths (prior to 1990) etc are no longer very secret, since the exact texts and pictures can now be found on many internet sites. Here is a link to one where you can compare the pre- and post-1990 versions:

lds-mormon.com/compare.shtml

The post-1990 endowment is toned down quite a bit so as not to offend modern sensibilities. It seems too many converts were leaving the Church soon after experiencing the weird ceremonies and teachings of the Mormon temple.
 
Well, yeah! I’ve been a member all my life, and I feel like leaving after the toned-down version!
 
Isaac… Just curious why are you thinking of leaving the mormon church?
 
Well, after a ton of research, I just don’t buy into it anymore. I still go weekly to please my family, but I don’t really get a whole lot out of it because it reminds me of how bothered I was in the temple. Nothing about that entire experience felt right. Of course there are certain things in the meetings that I agree with, but overall, I’d rather just be somewhere else.
 
I understand…I think my family still hopes I will return to the mormon church but once I left there is no way I would ever go back. I know deep in my heart that God led me to the Catholic church because it is what he left for all of us and it is the only true church on this earth. I just wish people (Mormons especially) would search for the truth and not be afraid of what they will find…:twocents:
 
I just wish people (Mormons especially) would search for the truth and not be afraid of what they will find…:twocents:
That’s something that interests me. I’ve noticed a lot of fear in Mormons. Especially those who have been in a bishopric. There’s a sense that you’ve gone so far and to sacrifice all that would be too difficult. That’s definitely the way I felt for a long time. I’m definitely not afraid anymore though.

I think perhaps every time my bishop gives me something to read, I ought to return him the favor (and I don’t mean with anti-Mormon literature, but pointing him to historical information). The major problem I have with most bishops is that they think i don’t understand. They’re confused when they tell me what certain things mean in Mormonism, and I’m able to tell them, “Yeah. I know. That’s not that difficult to understand. I see that you believe it, but I simply don’t.” The part they’re missing is the information that I’ve come across. I have difficulty expressing myself in the presence of a bishop though because I really don’t want to come off as offensive.
 
I read an interesting book called “mistakes were made but not by me”. It basically says that once someone commits to something, it’s much easier for them to use dissonance to keep the facade going rather than admit they’ve been duped. And the more you commit with time and money, the easier it becomes to rationalize the irrational.

This is the same reasoning that seemingly intelligent people can be duped by those ridiculous fake check schemes from Nigeria over and over. Instead of them admitting they’ve been played the fool, they keep pouring money and time into it with hopes that it will pay off. in order to admit that they’ve been duped they would have to say “you’re a fool, you’ve been duped” our human minds are so against this, we will essentially lie to ourselves and rationalize the irrational.

Again the authors put it more eloquently than I did, but you get the idea.
 
This website will explain more about mormonism and freemasonry. Greg is a mormon and a mason. It really isn’t what you think. Read and learn from the mormon perspective and them make up your minds based on what the mormons say.

fairlds.org/Misc/Similarities_between_Masonic_and_Mormon_Temple_Ritual.html

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2005_Latter-day_Saints_and_Freemasonry.html

We also have a town that is filling up with converts and they’re coming from places in the world where they don’t necessarily read and write and speak English. They’re coming from Scandinavia and they’re particularly coming from Wales. I went downtown and bought this book, this Book of Mormon–the second translation of the Book of Mormon was in Welsh. Welsh is really different from English and I would surmise that Welsh was as commonly heard on the streets of Nauvoo as was English in those years.

So, Joseph is presented with a real problem. He is receiving through revelation lots of new information critical to the salvation of the Saints and he has to find a way to present it to them in a way that they will know and recognize, learn what they need to know, and he’s sitting in Lodge and he’s watching men do a very complex ritual and learning by rote memory–by going over and over again you learn it. And I can sit here right now, and I will, do a little portion of the ritual.

This comes from the second website I posted. Joseph used the presentation that masons use but changed it to fit the meaning of the temple rituals. It was important for the early mormons to understand the meaning of the temple ritual and JS admired how the mason ceremony was presented.
 
This website will explain more about mormonism and freemasonry. Greg is a mormon and a mason. It really isn’t what you think. Read and learn from the mormon perspective and them make up your minds based on what the mormons say.

fairlds.org/Misc/Similarities_between_Masonic_and_Mormon_Temple_Ritual.html

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2005_Latter-day_Saints_and_Freemasonry.html

We also have a town that is filling up with converts and they’re coming from places in the world where they don’t necessarily read and write and speak English. They’re coming from Scandinavia and they’re particularly coming from Wales. I went downtown and bought this book, this Book of Mormon–the second translation of the Book of Mormon was in Welsh. Welsh is really different from English and I would surmise that Welsh was as commonly heard on the streets of Nauvoo as was English in those years.

So, Joseph is presented with a real problem. He is receiving through revelation lots of new information critical to the salvation of the Saints and he has to find a way to present it to them in a way that they will know and recognize, learn what they need to know, and he’s sitting in Lodge and he’s watching men do a very complex ritual and learning by rote memory–by going over and over again you learn it. And I can sit here right now, and I will, do a little portion of the ritual.

This comes from the second website I posted. Joseph used the presentation that masons use but changed it to fit the meaning of the temple rituals. It was important for the early mormons to understand the meaning of the temple ritual and JS admired how the mason ceremony was presented.
Google - five points of fellowship
This is amazing.
mormonismi.info/jamesdavid/masendow.htm
 
Oh yes i forgot.they also stole the masonic oaths.
Right before he was killed by a mob, the last thing he did was to try to yell out a secret Masonic call for help . Brother Masons are obliged to come to the rescue if they hear it…

From the wikipedia:

“When Smith was killed in 1844, it was recorded that he raised his hands in the air and proclaimed, “My Lord and my God” before he was shot. This phrase could be the beginning of an appeal to God or it could be—as is often thought—the beginning words of a Masonic line that is to be used as an emergency call for help. The speculation is that Smith was making a last-ditch effort to identify himself to other Masons, should any have been in the mob that then assassinated him.”
 
This website will explain more about mormonism and freemasonry. Greg is a mormon and a mason. It really isn’t what you think. Read and learn from the mormon perspective and them make up your minds based on what the mormons say.

fairlds.org/Misc/Similarities_between_Masonic_and_Mormon_Temple_Ritual.html

fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2005_Latter-day_Saints_and_Freemasonry.html

We also have a town that is filling up with converts and they’re coming from places in the world where they don’t necessarily read and write and speak English. They’re coming from Scandinavia and they’re particularly coming from Wales. I went downtown and bought this book, this Book of Mormon–the second translation of the Book of Mormon was in Welsh. Welsh is really different from English and I would surmise that Welsh was as commonly heard on the streets of Nauvoo as was English in those years.

So, Joseph is presented with a real problem. He is receiving through revelation lots of new information critical to the salvation of the Saints and he has to find a way to present it to them in a way that they will know and recognize, learn what they need to know, and he’s sitting in Lodge and he’s watching men do a very complex ritual and learning by rote memory–by going over and over again you learn it. And I can sit here right now, and I will, do a little portion of the ritual.

This comes from the second website I posted. Joseph used the presentation that masons use but changed it to fit the meaning of the temple rituals. It was important for the early mormons to understand the meaning of the temple ritual and JS admired how the mason ceremony was presented.
But that is not what the LDS Church has taught for 180 years. They teach that Joseph Smith received the basic elements of the endowment by revelation from God.

These basic elements include the signs (hand gestures), tokens (hand clasps), key words (the “name” or password associated with each token) and the several covenants enjoined on the attendees.

But each of these elements (except some of the covenants) was lifted directly from Free Masonry. In earlier decades, the Church taught that the Masonic ceremonies are actually corrupted versions of the true temple endowment handed down from Solomon’s temple but lost during the “Great Apostacy” and restored to its original purity by Smith. This teaching has been thoroughly debunked, and so now they have changed tactics.

Mormon SOP.

Paul
 
Mormonoid temple mummeries can offer neither health to the sinews nor marrow to the bone because there is no power in their priesthood for themselves or for their descendants forever.

That’s because Moronism is nothing more than the philosophies of men mingled with scripture for people who want religion.

And Pele Ale is, at best, a beer brewed by a Brazilian soccer star.
 
Speaking of which, does anyone know why they removed “Pay Lay Ale” from the endowment? Joseph Smith claimed to have received this phrase in the Adamic language by revelation. I can understand taking out offensive things like the throat-slitting and disembowelment, but what was wrong with the “Pay Lay Ale” routine (besides being really silly)?

Paul
 
Speaking of which, does anyone know why they removed “Pay Lay Ale” from the endowment? Joseph Smith claimed to have received this phrase in the Adamic language by revelation. I can understand taking out offensive things like the throat-slitting and disembowelment, but what was wrong with the “Pay Lay Ale” routine (besides being really silly)?

Paul
The Tanner’s research and publication of that research is this (warning to mormons, your temple rituals are being talked about in detail) From the UTLM website:

Another important change has been made in the sign for the Second Token of the Melchizedek Priesthood. In the 1984 version of the endowment ceremony, as printed in Appendix A of Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony, page 94, we find this: “The sign is made by raising both hands high above the head (Officiator demonstrates.), and while lowering the hands repeating aloud the words:
Pay Lay Ale
Pay Lay Ale
Pay Lay Ale”
As early as 1969 we pointed out a problem with this: "…there seems to have been a change made in this part of the ceremony, for the Salt Lake Tribune, Feb. 12, 1906, gave the words as ‘Pale, Ale, Ale,’ and Temple Mormonism used the words ‘Pale, Hale, Hale.’ " (The Mormon Kingdom, vol. 1, p. 138)
However this may be, in another portion of the temple ceremony, it is explained that “Pay Lay Ale” means “Oh God, hear the words of my mouth!”
A number of years ago a Mormon intellectual informed us that it was his understanding that one of the top scholars in the church had pointed out to church authorities that the words pay lay ale or pe le el could be translated from the Hebrew language as “mouth to God.” This, of course, could be considered to be a condensed version of “Oh God, hear the words of my mouth!” That this translation is plausible can be confirmed by consulting Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, Hebrew and Chaldee Dictionary, word #6310—“peh… the mouth.” The Hebrew letter Lamed (transliterated in English as l) is often added on the front of words and means “to, at, for” (Hebrew Primer and Grammar, by C. P. Fagnani and A. B. Davidson, page 50). Word #410 in Strong’s Concordance is “ale… God (god).” Kyle D. Williams has also pointed out to us that the Biblical name “Lael,” found in Numbers 3:24, is translated by Strong (#3815) as “(belonging) to God.” At any rate, we were told that the Mormon scholar was so convincing in his presentation to the leaders of the church that they changed the wording of the temple ceremony to “Pay Lay Ale.”
In the early 1980’s some critics of the church began to proclaim that in Hebrew these words really meant, “Wonderful Lucifer.” If this were true, this would mean that the Mormons were praying to the Devil in this part of the ceremony. We took very strong exception to this claim and pointed out that there was no way that these words could be translated “Wonderful Lucifer” (see The Lucifer-God Doctrine, p. 11-15, 85-86).
In any case, many Mormons must have been bothered when they had to raise and lower their hands repeating the strange words “Pay Lay Ale” three times during the ritual. The Mormon leaders have now replaced the mysterious words with the English words which were mentioned earlier in the ceremony: “Oh God, hear the words of my mouth!” In the 1990 revision of the ritual (Appendix B of Evolution of the Mormon Temple Ceremony, pages 133-34), we read:
“The sign is made by raising both hands high above the head (The Officiator demonstrates.), and while lowering the hands repeating aloud the words: ‘Oh God, hear the words of my mouth!’ repeated three times.”
 
Ooh. Wow! That’s a fascinating point RebeccaJ. Thanks very much!
 
Mormons, I’m sure you’ve gotten this before. How do you deal with the fact that many of the things your church teaches are revealed only to “worthy” Mormons who’ve gotten into the Temple? Do you feel there is a good reason to keep some things secret? Is it moral to convert people without telling them everything you believe?
There is very little real knowledge revealed in the temple. All you get is the supposed hand grips and signs that are going to get you past the guards into heaven. Apparently, the Mormons think St. Peter is more concerned about hand signals than a relationship with Jesus.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top