Temporal punishment and indulgences

[WoundedIcon]

Okay, I need some help here. I understand that there’s the guilt of sin and the punishment for it, and that despite being forgiven one will still have to satisfy the penalties. What I’m wondering is if those penalties (temporal punishment) are actively applied by God (in the sense that he is literally punishing) or if they are merely the consequences of our sins. I’m leaning more toward the former than the latter, if only because - to use a silly example - if I were to punch a wall and break my hand then get baptized ten minutes later my hand wouldn’t heal, even though baptism takes away all temporal punishments. So why does God do this in the first place? From what I understand from Scripture and the Church, it’s in order to chasten us and thus purge us of our sinfulness. It’s essentially merciful. But when indulgences come in, I find this understanding to work not quite as well because then we aren’t being chastened anymore if we satisfy part or all of our punishment and then aren’t we losing an opportunity to detach from our sins? Or do indulgences have an aspect where they fill in the chastening with graces?

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Okay, I need some help here. I understand that there’s the guilt of sin and the punishment for it, and that despite being forgiven one will still have to satisfy the penalties. What I’m wondering is if those penalties (temporal punishment) are actively applied by God (in the sense that he is literally punishing) or if they are merely the consequences of our sins.

Active and passive are concepts we use to parse up the universe for discussion purposes. In God’s world, there is no distinction between active or passive. If I am forgiven but still have some collateral damage, you could either say it was a consequence of your actions or that God did it. Just do not make the mistake of thinking you caused something without God’s participation … but God’s participation is guaranteed even through simple existence. I guess I’m saying just don’t say, “God didn’t do that, I did.” You set the stage. You willed for actions to take place, then you saw things after that, that you connected. This is how time works, and it is like training wheels for our spirit. It gives us a sense of cause and effect.

I’m leaning more toward the former than the latter, if only because - to use a silly example - if I were to punch a wall and break my hand then get baptized ten minutes later my hand wouldn’t heal, even though baptism takes away all temporal punishments.

Oh gee my ignorance is hurting me. I’m not familiar with temporal punishment v baptism and all, but if our theology says your hand is supposed to heal, then I’d certainly question my understanding of it.

Also about God “punishing” us. I think here that we have a negative view of the word “punish.” I prefer the term “correcting” rather than punishing, because to me punishing implies judgment and intentionally inflicting pain, and my God really isn’t into s&m. He will purify us as gently as we let Him, but if we insist He will allow us to learn by Hard Knocks.

So why does God do this in the first place? From what I understand from Scripture and the Church, it’s in order to chasten us and thus purge us of our sinfulness. It’s essentially merciful. But when indulgences come in, I find this understanding to work not quite as well because then we aren’t being chastened anymore if we satisfy part or all of our punishment and then aren’t we losing an opportunity to detach from our sins? Or do indulgences have an aspect where they fill in the chastening with graces?

Don’t worry about having to do X amount, or X time, in purgatory. We say the souls are suffering, but to me purgatory seems more like a safe ward where we can “get naked” before God (remember before the fall they were naked and not ashamed?) and be totally cleansed inside and out. Normally we are covered up because of our fear, shame, lack of faith, etc. So God helps us remove those garments, that I like to call the false self, or the bushel covering our light, or the ego. At whatever rate is correct. I’m not sure, but I think the whole “days in purgatory” thing is just a working model we use to discuss “making progress” along the spiritual journey. So it isn’t like depending on how bad you are you need to stay in the corner longer. What purpose would that serve? It would simply be abuse to keep hitting a person after they sincerely say they are sorry. I don’t know, I just can’t see God with a big stopwatch saying, “your sentence is up.”

But once you let go and let God, purgatory will be merciful as you say. Fight Him and it will hurt, like fighting against the restraints tying you down to the hospital bed. Let go completely and you will open all the doors so He can get in and out as fast as you please. Either way, I’m really not even sure there is such a thing as “time” in purgatory … gosh if I’m totally wrong please somebody help.

Alan

 

[NeedImprovement]

Okay, I need some help here. I understand that there’s the guilt of sin and the punishment for it, and that despite being forgiven one will still have to satisfy the penalties… :

A better way to word it might be to satisfy the demands of justice. The two main dynamics involved are justice and mercy. A better overall understanding can be gained if we try to keep a contextual connection with the sacrament of Reconciliation .

… I’m leaning more toward the former than the latter, if only because - to use a silly example - if I were to punch a wall and break my hand then get baptized ten minutes later my hand wouldn’t heal, even though baptism takes away all temporal punishments …:

Justice would demand that the damage to the wall be repaired, if you caused any – it wouldn’t demand that you break your hand . Whether or not that particular action was a sin , would rely much more heavily on the reason “why” you were angry – what was going on interiorly.

… What I’m wondering is if those penalties (temporal punishment) are actively applied by God (in the sense that he is literally punishing) or if they are merely the consequences of our sins… :

"Catechism of the Catholic Church:

(highlights mine)

**The punishments of sin **
**1472 **
To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.84

… But when indulgences come in, I find this understanding to work not quite as well because then we aren’t being chastened anymore if we satisfy part or all of our punishment and then aren’t we losing an opportunity to detach from our sins? Or do indulgences have an aspect where they fill in the chastening with graces? …

Actually , according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church , the temporal punishment of sin itself is referred to as a grace which we should strive to accept :
Catechism of the Catholic Church:

(highlights mine)
**1473 **
The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the “new man.”

I don’t know if it might be possible to make the wording of what is being asked here (quoted below) , just a little bit clearer somehow … ? …

WoundedIcon:

From what I understand from Scripture and the Church, it’s in order to chasten us and thus purge us of our sinfulness. It’s essentially merciful. But when indulgences come in, I find this understanding to work not quite as well because then we aren’t being chastened anymore if we satisfy part or all of our punishment and then aren’t we losing an opportunity to detach from our sins?

… because as it stands, by extension, it appears to be saying : If we were to offer any indulgences we gain, for the benefit of the holy souls in Purgatory (which is highly commendable) , we would be causing them a loss of opportunity to be detached from their sins. The reasoning is a little difficult to follow.

God’s Mercy cannot be measured.

 

[NeedImprovement]

There is another way to look at indulgences which might be helpful in response to this query :

WoundedIcon:

From what I understand from Scripture and the Church, it’s in order to chasten us and thus purge us of our sinfulness. It’s essentially merciful. But when indulgences come in, I find this understanding to work not quite as well because then we aren’t being chastened anymore if we satisfy part or all of our punishment and then aren’t we losing an opportunity to detach from our sins?

Upon examininig several passages from *INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA *(Pope Paul VI, 1967), and from the *Norms for Indulgences *(3rd Edition , May 18, 1986) respectively, it becomes evident that the acts themselves required for the gaining of indulgences by the faithful, are geared to, or directed towards the detachment of the one who intends to gain the indulgence from their sins; right from the outset (highlights mine) :
INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA:

LINK

1. Likewise, the religious practice of indulgences reawakens trust and hope in a full reconciliation with God the Father, but in such a way as will not justify any negligence nor in any way diminish the effort to acquire the dispositions required for full communion with God. Although indulgences are in fact free gifts, nevertheless they are granted for the living as well as for the dead only on determined conditions. To acquire them, it is indeed required on the one hand that prescribed works be performed, and on the other that the faithful have the necessary dispositions, that is to say, that they love God, detest sin, place their trust in the merits of Christ and believe firmly in the great assistance they derive from the Communion of Saints.

Norms for Indulgences (3rd Edition :

LINK

II. Norms
5. Any of the Christian faithful who, being at least inwardly contrite, perform a work carrying with it a partial indulgence, receive through the Church the remission of temporal punishment equivalent to what their own act already receives. [5]

1. To be capable of gaining indulgences a person must be baptized, not excommunicated, and in the state of grace at least at the time the prescribed works are completed.
2. Beside the exclusion of all attachment to sin, even venial sin, the requirements for gaining a plenary indulgence are the performance of the indulgenced work and fulfillment of three conditions: sacramental confession, Eucharistic communion, and prayer for the pope’s intentions.
3. Several plenary indulgences may be gained on the basis of a single sacramental confession; only one may be gained, however, on the basis of a single Eucharistic communion and prayer for the pope’s intentions.
4. The three conditions may be carried out several days preceding or following performance of the prescribed work. But it is more fitting that the communion and the prayer for the pope’s intentions take place on the day the work is performed.
5. If a person is not fully disposed or if the prescribed work and the three mentioned conditions are not fulfilled, the indulgence will only be partial; the prescriptions in N. 27 and N. 28 for those impeded are exceptions.
6. The condition requiring prayer for the pope’s intentions is satisfied by reciting once the Our Father and Hail Mary for his intentions; nevertheless all the faithful have the option of reciting any other prayer suited to their own piety and devotion. [15]

If we additionally consider recollectively that our venial sins are remitted during the celebration of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and that in the introduction to the Norms For Indulgences it is stipulated that
Norms For Indulgences (3rd Edition:

1. Participation in the sacrifice of the Mass and in the sacraments is not enriched with any indulgences. The reason is that tradition teaches that they far outstrip any other activity as regards their efficacy in "sanctifying and purifying."

… Then it can be surely said that rather than losing an opportunity to detach from our sins, each act performed in the gaining of an indulgence involves a conscious movement of the soul away from sin and towards holiness. We might say that, each act performed with the intention of gaining an indulgence is actually an exercise in detachment from sin.

 

[Lilsheep88]

Actually… I ponder the same thing. Somebody once told me that natural consequences are like penance / justice which is mentioned above… In any case, if your scared to death of just punishment…just keep invoking Divine Mercy and beg him to make life easier for you and for him to cast his eyes of mercy upon you. Apparently, God has a soft spot for even the most hardened sinners as long as they are contrite.

thedivinemercy.org/message/spirituality/trust.php
Read carefully, and hopefully that gives you peace of mind