Temporal Punishment for Sin

[japhy]

How do I go about describing or explaining “temporal punishment for sin” to a 12- or 13-year-old, as it pertains to sin, confession, Purgatory, and … indulgences?

Here’s what I know…

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” (CCC 1471)

“On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.” (CCC 1472)

“The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.” (CCC 1473)

But what are these temporal punishments? This doesn’t mean that a person who receives a plenary indulgence won’t suffer at all or endure any trials, does it? Even a person in a complete state of grace can suffer the from the impacts/effects of another person’s sin! Take Mary, for instance: she suffered despite being without sin.

Or… does that mean that a person who does suffer while in a complete state of grace (such as after having received a plenary indulgence) is suffering on behalf of the Body of Christ (cf. Col 1:24)?

I’d like to be enlightened!

 

[yinekka]

I think it is one thing for you, an adult, to be enlightened and it is another for you to overwhelm a child with a whole lot of concepts it might be better to postpone until the child is older and can understand more.

The most important thing for a child to know is that God loves them and we respond to God loving us first by loving Him and others for love of Him. If we concentrate on loving God and our neighbour and know that sin is a fracture or breaking of our friendship with God we will commit fewer sins. We will be focussed more on doing good than just avoiding sin. The latter can lead us to become Jansenistic or overly rigourous.

If you are home schooling or supplementing your child’s school religious instruction it might be a good idea to purchase a good religious text book for the appropriate age and see what they deal with and in what depth. Ignatius Press sells some religious education text books.

A few good books for you to read to give you some background on how to help your child understand his/her Faith are:1. The Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church – it is available online, just Google the name.
2. Catholic Truths For Our Children – a Guide For Parents - Patti Maguire Armstrong this book has an Imprimatur
3. Talking to Your Children About Being Catholic – various authors Our Sunday Visitor publication

Now, as to your questions

1. Temporal punishment – the punishment remaining after sin is forgiven. Fr Vincent Serpa OP gives the example of him spilling orange juice at this mother’s house. His mother forgives him for spilling the juice but it still has to be cleaned up. Another analogy is breaking a window – the man whose window was broken forgives the person but a new window still has to be purchased and replaced.
2. In confession our mortal and venial sins are forgiven. Venial sins can also be forgiven out of confession e.g. when we receive Holy Communion.
3. Purgatory is a state of purification for people who die in the state of grace – they are sure of getting to heaven but may still have some unrepented venial sins or some temporal punishment to be worked through. An analogy for a child is to compare it to getting cleaned before going to visit grandma. Purgatory may last for a some of our time or be over in a flash – we don’t know.
4. In the early days of the Church penances for sins confessed used to be very severe e.g. walking barefoot to a shrine or standing outside a church for a year telling people you were a sinner. The Church realised that these penance were too severe and so, using the treasury of merits of Christ on the Cross and of the saints, the Church remitted or eased up on some of these penances. Think of it as the father who pays for most of the window broken by the child while the child pays the rest. Indulgences can be partial – remit some of the temporal punishment or plenary – remit the whole of the temporal punishment if certain conditions are fulfilled. No one can be that they have received a plenary indulgence it is up to God.

A person in the state of grace can offer up their sufferings for themselves or for the souls in purgatory. We can’t offer up our sufferings for another living person.

Hope that this helps.

 

[japhy]

I think it is one thing for you, an adult, to be enlightened and it is another for you to overwhelm a child with a whole lot of concepts it might be better to postpone until the child is older and can understand more.

The reason I brought it up is because I am a catechist, and I only just learned about the existence of a catechetical indulgence, both on the part of the instructor and on the part of the instructed. I would very much like to tell the students I teach about this (partial) indulgence they can gain just by being here and knowing the indulgence exists… but their textbook says nothing about indulgences (although it does mention Purgatory) nor about temporal punishment due to sin.

1. Temporal punishment – the punishment remaining after sin is forgiven. Fr Vincent Serpa OP gives the example of him spilling orange juice at this mother’s house. His mother forgives him for spilling the juice but it still has to be cleaned up. Another analogy is breaking a window – the man whose window was broken forgives the person but a new window still has to be purchased and replaced.

I know (and have used) the “broken window” analogy when explaining the combination of forgiveness and penance as they pertain to Confession/Reconciliation. The failure of those analogies is that they pertain to tangible restitution: a broken window needs to be fixed, a spilled glass needs to be cleaned up. But what would an indulgence be in those analogies? Doing chores for the man whose window you broke? Helping your mom do the dishes?

1. … using the treasury of merits of Christ on the Cross and of the saints, the Church remitted or eased up on some of these penances. Think of it as the father who pays for most of the window broken by the child while the child pays the rest. Indulgences can be partial – remit some of the temporal punishment or plenary – remit the whole of the temporal punishment if certain conditions are fulfilled. No one can be [sure (?)] that they have received a plenary indulgence it is up to God.

I understand all of this, and I could probably explain it if necessary.

But my question is more basic (I think). What is temporal punishment? If I tell a lie, part of my temporal punishment might include a damaged reputation, lost trust, lost friends, etc. – those are consequences “following from the very nature of sin” (CCC 1472). But if I were to obtain a partial indulgence, what has changed? My reputation is still damaged, I have still lost the trust of others, and I might still have lost friends… perhaps, though, I have been spared some temporal punishment in Purgatory?

 

[Jenova]

I never doubt catholic teaching that there are temporal punishment for sins that have been forgiven. But I find it difficult to understand when (IMO) it contradict to what Jesus did in e.g. Matthew 9:1-8, 11:2-19, 14:22-33, Mark 2:1-12, 6:45-52, Luke 5:17-26, 7:36-50, John 8:1-11. Jesus forgive the sinners, period. He didn’t mention that the sinners are still to pay the remaining debts.
Could anyone please help me to understand this?

 

[sw85]

If you break a neighbor’s window, you might go over and apologize, and he might forgive you. But even if he forgives you, his window is still broken, and it still needs to be replaced – either at your expense or his.

Forgiveness for breaking the window is the “eternal punishment” bit. “Temporal punishment” is the work/payment necessary to replace the window after we’re forgiven.

 

[His_helpmeet]

We describe Purgatory to DSD as “heaven’s mudroom”. Essentially, if you go outside and play in the mud, you get dirty. Not so dirty that you can’t come in the house period, but dirty enough that you have to get washed off before you come in. Usually you clean up in the mudroom. Consequently, Purgatory is where you get “cleaned off” before you go to heaven.

 

[Boswell]

We describe Purgatory to DSD as “heaven’s mudroom”. Essentially, if you go outside and play in the mud, you get dirty. Not so dirty that you can’t come in the house period, but dirty enough that you have to get washed off before you come in. Usually you clean up in the mudroom. Consequently, Purgatory is where you get “cleaned off” before you go to heaven.

 

[Vico]

How do I go about describing or explaining “temporal punishment for sin” to a 12- or 13-year-old, as it pertains to sin, confession, Purgatory, and … indulgences?

Here’s what I know…

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” (CCC 1471)

“On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.” (CCC 1472)

“The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.” (CCC 1473)

But what are these temporal punishments? This doesn’t mean that a person who receives a plenary indulgence won’t suffer at all or endure any trials, does it? Even a person in a complete state of grace can suffer the from the impacts/effects of another person’s sin! Take Mary, for instance: she suffered despite being without sin.

Or… does that mean that a person who does suffer while in a complete state of grace (such as after having received a plenary indulgence) is suffering on behalf of the Body of Christ (cf. Col 1:24)?

I’d like to be enlightened!

Saint Thomas Aquinas really covered attachment to creatures, which is purified in the state of the faithfully departed, after death, it in his commentary in the Summa Theologica Part II, Section II, Question 189, Article 1. The entrance into religious life

I answer that, As shown above (Question 188, Article 1), the religious state is a spiritual schooling for the attainment of the perfection of charity. This is accomplished through the removal of the obstacles to perfect charity by religious observances; and these obstacles are those things which attach man’s affections to earthly things. Now the attachment of man’s affections to earthly things is not only an obstacle to the perfection of charity, but sometimes leads to the loss of charity, when through turning inordinately to temporal goods man turns away from the immutable good by sinning mortally. Hence it is evident that the observances of the religious state, while removing the obstacles to perfect charity, remove also the occasions of sin: for instance, it is clear that fasting, watching, obedience, and the like withdraw man from sins of gluttony and lust and all other manner of sins.
newadvent.org/summa/3189.htm

 

[Jenova]

If you break a neighbor’s window, you might go over and apologize, and he might forgive you. But even if he forgives you, his window is still broken, and it still needs to be replaced – either at your expense or his.

Forgiveness for breaking the window is the “eternal punishment” bit. “Temporal punishment” is the work/payment necessary to replace the window after we’re forgiven.

We describe Purgatory to DSD as “heaven’s mudroom”. Essentially, if you go outside and play in the mud, you get dirty. Not so dirty that you can’t come in the house period, but dirty enough that you have to get washed off before you come in. Usually you clean up in the mudroom. Consequently, Purgatory is where you get “cleaned off” before you go to heaven.

Saint Thomas Aquinas really covered attachment to creatures, which is purified in the state of the faithfully departed, after death, it in his commentary in the Summa Theologica Part II, Section II, Question 189, Article 1. The entrance into religious life

I answer that, As shown above (Question 188, Article 1), the religious state is a spiritual schooling for the attainment of the perfection of charity. This is accomplished through the removal of the obstacles to perfect charity by religious observances; and these obstacles are those things which attach man’s affections to earthly things. Now the attachment of man’s affections to earthly things is not only an obstacle to the perfection of charity, but sometimes leads to the loss of charity, when through turning inordinately to temporal goods man turns away from the immutable good by sinning mortally. Hence it is evident that the observances of the religious state, while removing the obstacles to perfect charity, remove also the occasions of sin: for instance, it is clear that fasting, watching, obedience, and the like withdraw man from sins of gluttony and lust and all other manner of sins.
newadvent.org/summa/3189.htm

I completely agree with the breaking window example and heaven’s mudroom analogy.
Thomas Aquinas’ teaching also gives thorough explanation about this doctrine.

But, I still don’t find the answer to my question.
Did the sinners whom Jesus forgave (Matthew 9:1-8, 11:2-19, 14:22-33, Mark 2:1-12, 6:45-52, Luke 5:17-26, 7:36-50, John 8:1-11) also pay the temporal punishment for their debts?
If they did, which verse says about this?
If they didn’t, i.e. Jesus fully pardon their sins and their debts from the forgiven sins, doesn’t it mean that God’s grace and pardon already cleanse us from sins and any remaining temporal punishments?

Trying to convince protestant colleages, so I’m putting myself in their shoes

 

[Pug]

I completely agree with the breaking window example and heaven’s mudroom analogy.
Thomas Aquinas’ teaching also gives thorough explanation about this doctrine.

But, I still don’t find the answer to my question.
Did the sinners whom Jesus forgave (Matthew 9:1-8, 11:2-19, 14:22-33, Mark 2:1-12, 6:45-52, Luke 5:17-26, 7:36-50, John 8:1-11) also pay the temporal punishment for their debts?
If they did, which verse says about this?
If they didn’t, i.e. Jesus fully pardon their sins and their debts from the forgiven sins, doesn’t it mean that God’s grace and pardon already cleanse us from sins and any remaining temporal punishments?

Trying to convince protestant colleages, so I’m putting myself in their shoes

Have you ever looked at the King David example? Some people find it helpful. He was forgiven, but still was punished by his son dying. 2 Sam12:13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: “The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. 14 But since you have utterly spurned the LORD by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.”

(this is an old thread, so I don’t remember what the older posts said, sorry if repeating)

 

[Vico]

I completely agree with the breaking window example and heaven’s mudroom analogy.
Thomas Aquinas’ teaching also gives thorough explanation about this doctrine.

But, I still don’t find the answer to my question.
Did the sinners whom Jesus forgave (Matthew 9:1-8, 11:2-19, 14:22-33, Mark 2:1-12, 6:45-52, Luke 5:17-26, 7:36-50, John 8:1-11) also pay the temporal punishment for their debts?
If they did, which verse says about this?
If they didn’t, i.e. Jesus fully pardon their sins and their debts from the forgiven sins, doesn’t it mean that God’s grace and pardon already cleanse us from sins and any remaining temporal punishments?

Trying to convince protestant colleages, so I’m putting myself in their shoes

The teaching of the Church is that indulgences (elimination of temporal punishments) depend on the will of the one granting the indulgence. The gospel does not state that Christ granted also a plenary indulgence to all whom he forgave. However, that is what happens in baptism, so perhaps Christ also granted a plenary indulgence once or more, for example to the thief on that he forgave while on the cross. All that is suffered in this life is not a temporal punishment for sins committed.

 

[chimo]

To help explain what is an indulgence I will try to give you this example which someone has already given but allow me to expound on it. A certain boy is throwing a ball and accidently breaks the window of his house. He goes in to apologize to his father. Ok he has been forgiven but he still needs to replace the window. He works hard to get the funds to pay for the $100 window and has only $80 up to now. His father seeing the hard work put in by his son thinks he has done well and decided to put in the last remaining $20. That is what is an indulgence. We had a 40 Day memorial prayer service for someone who had died in my parish. Prayers were offered up during the service on behalf of the deceased soul. This is also another form of indulgence as the prayers on behalf of the deceased would quicken their entrance into Heaven if they are still need of it. The Lord Jesus said to St. Maria Faustina it is in your power to bring relief to all the souls of Purgatory. He mentioned to draw all the indulgences from the treasury of the Church to offer them on their behalf. Purgatory is not only for those who have died. We can be in a Purgatory now before we have died. Yet for those who have died still in a Purgatory state then someone else must help them who on earth to make prayers and satisfaction for the deceased souls. For those who are still living but are in a Purgatory state then you are more freer to help yourself or even better follow the direction of the Church to ask for help from others who would lend their help to you. Indulgences quicken to eliminate any Purgatory that is applied to you.

 

[joeby]

What hasn’t been addressed in this tread is the duration or intensity of suffering for temporal punishment especially, of mortal sins confessed. Consider a mortal sin not confessed which sends a soul into hell for all eternity. This sin offended an Almighty everlasting God and has everlasting consequences. So, only God knows our duration and intensity of suffering in Purgatory. I don’t believe its a simple fix with some indulgences, etc. Rather, we need to
turn away from sin and demonstrate our love for God by our charity, kindness etc.

 

[Paleocon]

How do I go about describing or explaining “temporal punishment for sin” to a 12- or 13-year-old, as it pertains to sin, confession, Purgatory, and … indulgences?

Here’s what I know…

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” (CCC 1471)

“On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.” (CCC 1472)

“The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.” (CCC 1473)

But what are these temporal punishments? This doesn’t mean that a person who receives a plenary indulgence won’t suffer at all or endure any trials, does it? Even a person in a complete state of grace can suffer the from the impacts/effects of another person’s sin! Take Mary, for instance: she suffered despite being without sin.

Or… does that mean that a person who does suffer while in a complete state of grace (such as after having received a plenary indulgence) is suffering on behalf of the Body of Christ (cf. Col 1:24)?

I’d like to be enlightened!

Temporal punishment occurs in purgatory unless it is expiated on Earth through indulgences.

To obtain an indulgence it is necessary to have the habitual intention to obtain one, however it is not necessary to have specific knowledge of the fact that one is engaging in an indulgenced act.

 

[twf]

I’ll use the analogy the venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen once used on his program. Each time we sin, it is as if we have hammered a nail through our soul. When we go to confession and are absolved, the nail is removed…there remains, however, the hole where the nail once was just as when you pull a nail out of a piece of wood. Penance, works of charity, and indulgences can remove the mark completely, healing the damage our sin inflicted.

 

[joeby]

Let me start off stating “Only Saints go to Heaven.” and temporal punishment for sin
must be satisfied before becoming a saint. The degree of holiness to enter the Kingdom of
God is determined by Jesus at our judgement. It is his mercy that saves us from the wrath of sins committed against an almighty God. Otherwise our temporal punishment would be almost endless in duration because we have offended an eternal God. Indulgences to lessen
the punishment of sin is a drop in the bucket. Its God’s mercy that saves us not the
theology of the church fathers.

e

 

[joe371]

I completely agree with the breaking window example and heaven’s mudroom analogy.
Thomas Aquinas’ teaching also gives thorough explanation about this doctrine.

But, I still don’t find the answer to my question.
Did the sinners whom Jesus forgave (Matthew 9:1-8, 11:2-19, 14:22-33, Mark 2:1-12, 6:45-52, Luke 5:17-26, 7:36-50, John 8:1-11) also pay the temporal punishment for their debts?
If they did, which verse says about this?
If they didn’t, i.e. Jesus fully pardon their sins and their debts from the forgiven sins, doesn’t it mean that God’s grace and pardon already cleanse us from sins and any remaining temporal punishments?

Trying to convince protestant colleages, so I’m putting myself in their shoes

I suppose, logically speaking, it comes down to whether or not there are any remaining consequences of our sins once they have been forgiven by Jesus’ atoning work on the cross. The harm done/caused by our forgiven sins, continue to be real even after we have been forgiven, and will certainly have consequences especially if they adversely affected others. Should a person that correctly claims that Jesus is their savior, go directly to heaven, regardless of the damage that his/her forgiven sin did to others? What about the ripple effect of those forgiven sins that may have caused others to sin or may have led others away from Jesus? Just as there are consequences for every bad action, there are consequences for forgiven sins (bad actions that have been forgiven) and they must be addressed by God, even if Jesus has fully pardoned his/her sins.

 

[Vico]

How do I go about describing or explaining “temporal punishment for sin” to a 12- or 13-year-old, as it pertains to sin, confession, Purgatory, and … indulgences?

Here’s what I know…

“An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints.” (CCC 1471)

“On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the ‘temporal punishment’ of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.” (CCC 1472)

“The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace.” (CCC 1473)

But what are these temporal punishments? This doesn’t mean that a person who receives a plenary indulgence won’t suffer at all or endure any trials, does it? Even a person in a complete state of grace can suffer the from the impacts/effects of another person’s sin! Take Mary, for instance: she suffered despite being without sin.

Or… does that mean that a person who does suffer while in a complete state of grace (such as after having received a plenary indulgence) is suffering on behalf of the Body of Christ (cf. Col 1:24)?

I’d like to be enlightened!

Not everything is given about purgatory. The Council of Trent, in Session XXV, “De Purgatorio” commands the bishope “to exclude from their preaching difficult and subtle questions which tend not to edification’, and from the discussion of which there is no increase either in piety or devotion” .

Some temporal punishment must be endured in this life which is mentioned as “patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds”.