Temporal punishment in New Testament?

[Elzee]

Can someone help me find a few examples in the NT where God remitted a temporal punishment even after a sin was forgiven . In the OT, for example, David still lost his son as a punishment even though he was forgiven. Are there examples like this in the NT?

I’m talking about “penance” after forgiveness of sins with a friend and trying to show this is not just a ‘before Jesus’ concept in the bible. (her point being God punished before Jesus came. After Jesus that isn’t necessary because Jesus took ALL the punishment for all our sins)

 

[ckempston]

Can someone help me find a few examples in the NT where God remitted a temporal punishment even after a sin was forgiven . In the OT, for example, David still lost his son as a punishment even though he was forgiven. Are there examples like this in the NT?

I’m talking about “penance” after forgiveness of sins with a friend and trying to show this is not just a ‘before Jesus’ concept in the bible. (her point being God punished before Jesus came. After Jesus that isn’t necessary because Jesus took ALL the punishment for all our sins)

Jesus did take all the punishment for our sins. There is no such example in the New Testament.

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

 

[Truthstalker]

I wonder if you are confusing penance with punishment, or with discipline.

Jesus offered Himself up as a perfect sacrifice that was satisfactory to His Father. All our sins were laid upon Him. To say that we add to His sacrifice in any way is blasphemous.

God disciplines His children (see Hebrews 12). I think the point of penance is not punishment but to demonstrate that we are truly contrite and sorry for our sins. A penance of three Hail Marys can be embarrassingly trivial; a life of repentence can be also but is weightier in God’s eyes than the former. But all our good works are as filthy rags. We are unworthy servants and add nothing to Christ’s completed work on the cross. Yet we are called to live lives of faith.

 

[Tom]

Can someone help me find a few examples in the NT where God remitted a temporal punishment even after a sin was forgiven . In the OT, for example, David still lost his son as a punishment even though he was forgiven. Are there examples like this in the NT?

I’m talking about “penance” after forgiveness of sins with a friend and trying to show this is not just a ‘before Jesus’ concept in the bible. (her point being God punished before Jesus came. After Jesus that isn’t necessary because Jesus took ALL the punishment for all our sins)

Are you eluding to the doing of penance for the remission of the temporal effects of sin? If so, Jesus teaches us to do penance. Why would He teach this if it wouldn’t be necessary?
www.drbo.org:

Matthew 4, 17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say: Do penance, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Some would say penance isn’t required since Jesus removes all aspects of sin. That goes against Scripture and the direct teaching of Jesus.
www.drbo.org:

Matthew 11, 16 But whereunto shall I esteem this generation to be like? It is like to children sitting in the market place. 17 Who crying to their companions say: We have piped to you, and you have not danced: we have lamented, and you have not mourned. 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking; and they say: He hath a devil. 19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners. And wisdom is justified by her children. 20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance. 21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day. 24 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Note He is referring to the future day of judgement, lest anyone try to tell you His teaching is before the resurrection.
www.drbo.org:

Mark 6, 7 And he called the twelve; and began to send them two and two, and gave them power over unclean spirits. 8 And he commanded them that they should take nothing for the way, but a staff only: no scrip, no bread, nor money in their purse, 9 But to be shod with sandals, and that they should not put on two coats. 10 And he said to them: Wheresoever you shall enter into an house, there abide till you depart from that place. 11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you; going forth from thence, shake off the dust from your feet for a testimony to them. 12 And going forth they preached that men should do penance:

www.drbo.org:

Luke 5, 31 And Jesus answering, said to them: They that are whole, need not the physician: but they that are sick. 32 I came not to call the just, but sinners to penance.

There are plenty more if you need.

 

[rinnie]

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head there Tom… thank-you. Good response.

 

[Truthstalker]

“Do penance” entered Roman Catholic theology as a faulty translation of the Greek “repent.” Jesus said “repent” not “do penance.”

Repentence is required, as a gift that God gives.

 

[Tom]

“Do penance” entered Roman Catholic theology as a faulty translation of the Greek “repent.” Jesus said “repent” not “do penance.”

Repentence is required, as a gift that God gives.

So you’re saying Scripture is wrong and you’re right?
I did a word search for the word penance, and repent, they are both used in Scripture, so no, it wasn’t that they translated incorrectly.

 

[Tom]

If you go to: www.drbo.org, there is an online Bible with a good search engine. Type in repent, you’ll find the references to “repent”. Then penance, you’ll find the references to penance. They are different.

 

[Genesis315]

Remember, temporal punishment is corrective and purifying. In the West, we refer to the need for us to make satisfaction for our sins–in the East, they would say we need to bring forth the proper fruits of repetence (in fact, both phrases are used by the ecumenical Council of Florence–a reunion Council between East and West)–but it is the same meaning.
Council of Florence:

Also, if truly penitent people die in the love of God before they have made satisfaction for acts and omissions by worthy fruits of repentance, their souls are cleansed after death by cleansing pains; and the suffrages of the living faithful avail them in giving relief from such pains, that is, sacrifices of masses, prayers, almsgiving and other acts of devotion which have been customarily performed by some of the faithful for others of the faithful in accordance with the church’s ordinances.

Anyway, here is the principle of temporal punishment explained in the New Testament–notice especially the last verse and its linking temporal punishment to justice:

Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct? 8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. 9 Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification. 11 Now all chastisement for the present indeed seemeth not to bring with it joy, but sorrow: but afterwards it will yield, to them that are exercised by it, the most peaceable fruit of justice.

edit: just to add, while the rendering from the Latin in the DRV gives the phrase “do penance” it means the same as the phrase “repent.” As Catholics, we understanding that repentence is more than just contrition–it is contrition, confession, and satisfaction.

 

[rinnie]

“Do penance” entered Roman Catholic theology as a faulty translation of the Greek “repent.” Jesus said “repent” not “do penance.”

Repentence is required, as a gift that God gives.

Could I refer you again to post 4. Could you explain the scripture to me them. Because scripture actually says the complete opposite then what you are saying? Could you show me your scripture to disput what was quoted to you. Thanks

 

[Tom]

Excellent reference G!

 

[Tom]

Penance:

Matthew chapters 3 (3 times), 4, 11 ( 2 times), and 12.
Mark chaptersw 1 and 6.
Luke chapters 3, 5 10, 11, 13 15 16 17, and 24.
Acts of the Apostles chapters 2, 8, 13, 17, 19, 20, and 26.
Romans chapter 2
2 Corinthians chapters 7 and 12.
Hebrews chapter 6
2 Peter 3
Apocalypse chapters 2, 3, 9, and 16.

Repent:

Matthew 21
Mark 1 (uses both repent and penance)
Luke 17 (uses both repent and penance)
2 Corinthians 7 (uses both repent and penance)
Hebrews 7
Apocalypse 2 (uses both repent and penance)

Repentance is also used 6 times, so no, it isn’t faulty translations.

 

[ckempston]

Penance:

Matthew chapters 3 (3 times), 4, 11 ( 2 times), and 12.
Mark chaptersw 1 and 6.
Luke chapters 3, 5 10, 11, 13 15 16 17, and 24.
Acts of the Apostles chapters 2, 8, 13, 17, 19, 20, and 26.
Romans chapter 2
2 Corinthians chapters 7 and 12.
Hebrews chapter 6
2 Peter 3
Apocalypse chapters 2, 3, 9, and 16.

Repent:

Matthew 21
Mark 1 (uses both repent and penance)
Luke 17 (uses both repent and penance)
2 Corinthians 7 (uses both repent and penance)
Hebrews 7
Apocalypse 2 (uses both repent and penance)

Repentance is also used 6 times, so no, it isn’t faulty translations.

Wow, so you point us to a corrupt Catholic translation to prove your point? There is no Greek word in the entire New Testament that means penance. Neither are the Latin “penance” or the Greek “repentance” synonyms.

You are quite simply wrong, and your scripture references are incorrect. I’m not sure, for example, if you’re referring to Revelation 2:5, for instance, but if you are, both words for “repent” are the same word: metanoeo. In neither instance, do they mean “do penance.”

Like someone else pointed out already: “penance” is a Latin corruption of a Greek word with a very different meaning.

 

[ckempston]

Are you eluding to the doing of penance for the remission of the temporal effects of sin? If so, Jesus teaches us to do penance. Why would He teach this if it wouldn’t be necessary?

He didn’t.

Some would say penance isn’t required since Jesus removes all aspects of sin. That goes against Scripture and the direct teaching of Jesus.

Jesus does remove sin, completely. It does not go against scripture, certainly not the one you provided, which has no relevance whatsoever.

Note He is referring to the future day of judgement, lest anyone try to tell you His teaching is before the resurrection.

Right, he’s telling people who don’t repent that they will be condemned. No penance there.

There are plenty more if you need.

If the “plenty more” are anything like your other examples, then responding should be pretty easy. Feel free to provide examples.

The root of penance, Latin “poena” means punishment. You do “penance” FOR sin.

The word repentance, Greek “metanoeo” means to change one’s mind or purpose. You “repent” OF sin.

There’s the big difference:

You do penance FOR sin.
You repent OF/FROM sin.

The latter is Biblical, the former is not.

 

[Tom]

Wow, so you point us to a corrupt Catholic translation to prove your point? There is no Greek word in the entire New Testament that means penance. Neither are the Latin “penance” or the Greek “repentance” synonyms.

You are quite simply wrong, and your scripture references are incorrect. I’m not sure, for example, if you’re referring to Revelation 2:5, for instance, but if you are, both words for “repent” are the same word: metanoeo. In neither instance, do they mean “do penance.”

Like someone else pointed out already: “penance” is a Latin corruption of a Greek word with a very different meaning.

So your reference is what? You? Where is your “correct” verse? From what version of Scripture?

 

[Tom]

He didn’t.

Jesus does remove sin, completely. It does not go against scripture, certainly not the one you provided, which has no relevance whatsoever.

Right, he’s telling people who don’t repent that they will be condemned. No penance there.

If the “plenty more” are anything like your other examples, then responding should be pretty easy. Feel free to provide examples.

The root of penance, Latin “poena” means punishment. You do “penance” FOR sin.

The word repentance, Greek “metanoeo” means to change one’s mind or purpose. You “repent” OF sin.

There’s the big difference:

You do penance FOR sin.
You repent OF/FROM sin.

The latter is Biblical, the former is not.

Since you haven’t responded to ONE of the verses, simply stating they are corrupt, your argument is meaningless.

 

[ckempston]

So your reference is what? You? Where is your “correct” verse? From what version of Scripture?

I gave you my reference. It’s called the Greek language. I provided dictionary definitions of repentance and penance. You are simply in denial.

 

[Tom]

I gave you my reference. It’s called the Greek language. I provided dictionary definitions of repentance and penance. You are simply in denial.

What version of Scripture are you using? I am using the Douay-Rheims Bible, which i suppose you think is corrupt. What Bible are you using?

 

[ckempston]

Since you haven’t responded to ONE of the verses, simply stating they are corrupt, your argument is meaningless.

I did respond, to Revelation 2:5. Since you were nonspecific, and just blasted a list of scriptures, I wasn’t going to respon to every one. If you’d like to discuss one, and take the position that a certain passage supports penance, take your pick.

 

[ckempston]

What version of Scripture are you using? I am using the Douay-Rheims Bible, which i suppose you think is corrupt. What Bible are you using?

Pretty much any one other than Duoay-Rheims will correctly use the word “repentance”. NIV, NRSV, NLT, Young’s Literal, etc. Even “modern” Catholic versions, such as the RSV don’t use “penance”. You’re simply choosing a version to support your false doctrine.