Temporal Punishment?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mikeledes
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mikeledes

Guest
There are several passages in the Bible that seem to indicate that when God forgives sins, your slate becomes clean. In other words, he forives and “forgets.” So why is there temporal punishment after He has forgiven a sin?
 
40.png
mikeledes:
There are several passages in the Bible that seem to indicate that when God forgives sins, your slate becomes clean. In other words, he forives and “forgets.” So why is there temporal punishment after He has forgiven a sin?
Because sin not only causes offense or hurt to the person sinned againse it can also cause actual harm that along with asking for and receiving forgiveness must also be repaired. If I harm you, ask your forgiveness and you frogive me, you no longer hold it against me. However I must for Justice sake also repair any damage I may have in any way caused you.
 
This is a very interesting topic. On the one hand we have the Church saying when we sin we need to repent and do penance for reparation.

On the other hand we have the parable of the prodigal son.
"
But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. The son said to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.” But the father said to his servants, “Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.” So they began to celebrate
"
Remember, Jesus is the one who told this story (and controversial at the time) Is this the description of the loving heavenly Father that Jesus was talking about?
 
40.png
Caldera:
This is a very interesting topic. On the one hand we have the Church saying when we sin we need to repent and do penance for reparation.

On the other hand we have the parable of the prodigal son.
,

Remember, Jesus is the one who told this story (and controversial at the time) Is this the description of the loving heavenly Father that Jesus was talking about?
We should remember the rest of the story – the son’s brother who was offended and hurt both by his brother’s actions and his father’s forgiveness. I think his part in the story best illustrates the idea of the temporal effects of sin. Our relationship with the Father is restored, but what about the damage we’ve caused to ourselves and others? I imagine the Prodigal Son had a lot of work to do repairing his relationship with his brother.
 
Dr. Colossus,

Maybe it’s the other brother that needs to spend a little time in purgatory to get rid of his jealousy. 😃

Back up a page or 2 in St. Luke to “The Lost Sheep”:
"
The Pharisees and Scribes murmered, saying, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
But he spoke to them this parable, saying, "What man of you having a hundred sheep, and losing one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the desert, and go after that which is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it upon his shoulders rejoicing. And coming home he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, because I have found my sheep that was lost.’
"
 
40.png
mikeledes:
There are several passages in the Bible that seem to indicate that when God forgives sins, your slate becomes clean. In other words, he forives and “forgets.” So why is there temporal punishment after He has forgiven a sin?
The “temporal punishment for sin” is also called the “remains of sin”.

Vices are bad habits. If we go to the Sacrament of Confession and repent of our sins, our bad habits are not immediately transformed into good habits (virtues). We have to work at developing good habits – that is, we have to get rid of the remains of sin. Usually, the deeper one has fallen into a vice, the more work it will take to transform the bad habit into a good habit. For example, people who have been alcoholics or drug users need to not only go to confession for the sin of substance abuse, but they need to “work the steps” to remain sober. One can’t just begin the race to win the prize, one has to run the whole race or he will be disqualified. Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
1Cor 9:24-27
 
Br. Rich SFO:
… for Justice sake also repair any damage I may have in any way caused you.
👍 If I steal money from you, I can repent of that sin and be forgiven by God by confessing the sin. But I would still owe to you the money that I stole from you, and God’s justice obligates me to make a serious effort to make restitution for my theft.
 
Unless Br. Rich decides to turn the other cheek. 😉

Would getting the money back be God’s justice or our own?

Don’t mind me, i’m just looking for a good discussion…
 
40.png
Caldera:
Unless Br. Rich decides to turn the other cheek.
Suppose I was a very wealthy man and I stole Br. Rich’s retirement income through a dishonest investment scam. Is Br. Rich supposed to turn the other cheek and starve to death while I spent his money buying luxuries for myself?
Would getting the money back be God’s justice or our own?
“Thou shalt not steal.”

Was God writing on stone tablets man’s justice or God’s justice?

"You shall not defraud a poor and needy hired servant, whether he be one of your own countrymen or one of the aliens who live in your communities. You shall pay him each day’s wages before sundown on the day itself, since he is poor and looks forward to them. Otherwise he will cry to the LORD against you, and you will be held guilty. “
Deut 24:14-15

Behold, the wages you withheld from the workers who harvested your fields are crying aloud, and the cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of hosts. You have lived on earth in luxury and pleasure; you have fattened your hearts for the day of slaughter.
James 5:4-5
 
40.png
mikeledes:
There are several passages in the Bible that seem to indicate that when God forgives sins, your slate becomes clean. In other words, he forives and “forgets.” So why is there temporal punishment after He has forgiven a sin?
Depending on the sin, the sin can create problems with your body, your friends, family or the community you live in. If you steal, you place yourself in trouble legally and have to face the consequences for breaking the law, even if God forgives the sin of theft.
 
Matt 16_18,
Suppose I was a very wealthy man and I stole Br. Rich’s retirement income through a dishonest investment scam. Is Br. Rich supposed to turn the other cheek and starve to death while I spent his money buying luxuries for myself?
I guess Br. Rich would have to make that decision… If he did turn the other cheek, would he be on his way to becoming perfect?

What about all the poor people who have absolutely nothing in this life and need others to care for them so they can survive?

Maybe the Sermon On The Mount has the answer?
Among the many things said:
“Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice, for they shall be satisfied.”
“Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.”
 
40.png
mikeledes:
There are several passages in the Bible that seem to indicate that when God forgives sins, your slate becomes clean. In other words, he forives and “forgets.” So why is there temporal punishment after He has forgiven a sin?
Sometimes the consequences of sin are subtle or at least not clearly evident, and sometimes the consequences are painfully evident, even in the Bible. For example:

2 Samuel 12
13 Then David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” Nathan answered David: “The LORD on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. 14 But since you have utterly spurned the LORD by this deed, the child born to you must surely die.”
 
I’ve heard temporal punishment described as the remains of the attachment to the sin. In other words, though sinner has repented somewhat from the sin, he still has some attachment to it. So the thief returns the money, but he still sorta wishes he had it.

Is that off based? It seems very different from the definitions being offered in this thread. I think I have a mentally fuzzy idea of temporal punishment.

Now that I think about it. It must be different since disattachment from sin is a requirement for an indulgence. You wouldn’t need an indulgence if all that was needed was disattachment.

I like the way these forums require me to clarify my thinking 🙂
 
40.png
mikeledes:
There are several passages in the Bible that seem to indicate that when God forgives sins, your slate becomes clean. In other words, he forives and “forgets.” So why is there temporal punishment after He has forgiven a sin?
But what about the person who lives like Hitler did, and then accepts Jesus a few minutes before he dies.

Now what about all the people he hurt? It just doesn;t seem right to me that this person would go unpunished according to that Protestant heresy.

Secondly, you can get temporal punishment when you break a law here on earth by the police- maybe have to spend some time in jail now correct?

Ken
 
40.png
kleary:
But what about the person who lives like Hitler did, and then accepts Jesus a few minutes before he dies.

Now what about all the people he hurt? It just doesn;t seem right to me that this person would go unpunished according to that Protestant heresy.
It seems to me that you might be saying that temporal punishments exist to satisfy justice, otherwise the slow to repent sort you describe could get off scot-free, so to speak.

I think it is the Catholic view that such a one can get off scot-free. They go and get baptized and shortly get hit by a bus. Straight to heaven, no purgatory. In a way that seems obnoxious to those who have been decent sorts all their life. It reminds me of that parable of the workers in the vineyard who grumbled about the workers hired at the end of the day getting the same wage as them, who had worked all day in the heat.
 
40.png
Caldera:
I guess Br. Rich would have to make that decision…
Of course he would. And if he needed his money to live, I would owe him the money that I stole from him. If I had to work for the rest of my life to make restitution for my crime against Br. Rich, it would be a just punishment for me to do that.

What God wants is something different than mere restitution. He wants a changed heart. The honest labor that I do to make restitution may be just the thing that I need to do to make the change from the heart of a thief to the heart of a saint. Then again, I might work my whole life making restitution, but never really own up to the fact that I harbor the heart of a thief. I make restitution, but I make it with bitterness and anger in my heart. In that case, I might need to suffer in puragtory to be cleansed of my unclean and unrepentant heart. Or I might be condemened to hell because I never was repentant, even though I got caught for thievery and was forced to make restitution by the courts.

It is all about the heart. Nothing unclean enters heaven.
 
40.png
Caldera:
This is a very interesting topic. On the one hand we have the Church saying when we sin we need to repent and do penance for reparation.

On the other hand we have the parable of the prodigal son.
"
But Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." So they began to celebrate
"
Remember, Jesus is the one who told this story (and controversial at the time) Is this the description of the loving heavenly Father that Jesus was talking about?
the prodigal son still had to face facts the next day after the party. He had no inheritance, because the property had been split between the two sons when he left, so his father could not give him anything more. He still had to reconcile with the older brother. He still had to re-establish his relationships with others on the family and estate. He still had to find his place and role in the family business. He still had to recover from the physical effects of his ordeal, starvation, addictions, STDs or whatever he contracted as the result of his sins and loose living. His father’s forgiveness did not remove the bad effects of his actions.

He also had to overcome whatever it was in his personality, habits, inclinations that made him leave and misbehave in the first place. He was well on the road to becoming a better son and a better person, but he still had a long way to go.
 
40.png
Pug:
It seems to me that you might be saying that temporal punishments exist to satisfy justice, otherwise the slow to repent sort you describe could get off scot-free, so to speak.

I think it is the Catholic view that such a one can get off scot-free. They go and get baptized and shortly get hit by a bus. Straight to heaven, no purgatory. In a way that seems obnoxious to those who have been decent sorts all their life. It reminds me of that parable of the workers in the vineyard who grumbled about the workers hired at the end of the day getting the same wage as them, who had worked all day in the heat.
I do not believe the Church teaches that. You will have to provide official documentation.

Ken
 
40.png
kleary:
I do not believe the Church teaches that. You will have to provide official documentation.

Ken
Hmm. Okay, working on it. As a shortcut, here is a quote from the Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott p355:
Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both eternal and temporal. (De fide)
I am assuming you didn’t mean the bus part. Of course that isn’t in there. Also, I was assuming baptism validly and worthily received with the accompanying renunciation of sin. Okay, the next easiest is the CCC:
1263 By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.66 In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God.
The bolding is mine. The reference is to the coucil of Florence, I think. (the 66) Of course, concupiscense remains, death remains, some of the consequences from the fall, but these don’t impede entry into the kingdom. These are not the same as temporal punishments for our personal sins. It is temporal punishments for our personal sins that get us a trip through purgatory.

Confession, as opposed to baptism, it is generally understood to not always take away all the temporal punishments from your personal sins. The penance your priest assigns applies in that direction, however.

I also point out that the section of the CCC that talks about indulgences (which are precisely for temporal punishments) raises the point:
A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
If you look at the context (1472) it clearly includes temporal punishments from personal sins.
 
Dr. Colossus:
We should remember the rest of the story – the son’s brother who was offended and hurt both by his brother’s actions and his father’s forgiveness. I think his part in the story best illustrates the idea of the temporal effects of sin. Our relationship with the Father is restored, but what about the damage we’ve caused to ourselves and others? I imagine the Prodigal Son had a lot of work to do repairing his relationship with his brother.
Also, the Prodigal Son had already squandered all of his father’s estate that would come to him. He would have either had to do without (remember that the Father said to the Older Son,“All that I have is yours”) or work to rebuild what he threw away. This is also a temporal consequence.

If I overeat or smoke (I smoke!:o ), the temporal consequence is that my health will eventually be impaired. God isn’t going to bail me out of that, more than likely, though I throw myself on His mercy and ask His forgiveness for the sin involved).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top