Tempted by Orthodoxy

[Rawb]

I have a friend who’s devout Orthodox, and we talk often. I love the Catholic Church, and I love people I’ve met within her, but I have a very, very hard time believing The Church believes what she claims to believe when I hear every day about the latest heterodoxy, or even unorthodoxy being spouted by bishops and priests and laity. I struggle with being in Communion with a church that seems to compromise truth at every turn and be far more concerned with politics than saving souls. Every time I hear something good that a bishop or priest has done, it’s quickly turned around and overturned by their next action where they apologize and prostrate to heterodox or outright wrong teachings or people.

I understand that Orthodoxy isn’t perfect either, but I have to admit that such things seem much more systemic in Catholicism. Yes I could find an orthodox Catholic ‘enclave’ in a solid parish, but that’s just ignoring the fact that this is going on elsewhere and with apparent full approval of Rome. I’ve tried to grin and bear it, but it’s getting more and more difficult.

I told my friend leaving Catholicism would feel like getting a divorce. I love The Church, I love the Holy Father, I believe firmly in her teachings, but for all the gates of hell not prevailing, it certainly seems that the evil one marches through Catholicism with abandon and even, sometimes, welcome. Is this a sign that Christ’s true church lies elsewhere? I’m frustrated, confused, angry, and unbelievably sorrowful, almost to tears. I don’t know what I want or am asking for, maybe I just needed to vent. Anyone have anything for me?

 

[FCEGM]

. . .

I told my friend leaving Catholicism would feel like getting a divorce. I love The Church, I love the Holy Father, I believe firmly in her teachings, but for all the gates of hell not prevailing, it certainly seems that the evil one marches through Catholicism with abandon and even, sometimes, welcome. Is this a sign that Christ’s true church lies elsewhere? I’m frustrated, confused, angry, and unbelievably sorrowful, almost to tears. I don’t know what I want or am asking for, maybe I just needed to vent. Anyone have anything for me?

“. . .when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?” Luke 18:8

The gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, but we have no assurance about the size of the Church. The Holy Father has spoken of this and how the faithful may be small in number. Why do you think that the evil one takes such a particular aim at the Catholic Church? If it is not THE Church he would not put such an effort into seeking the ruin of souls within it. Do not be counted among those who abandon the flock in difficult times for seemingly greener pastures

 

[Cat_Herder]

I have a friend who’s devout Orthodox, and we talk often. I love the Catholic Church, and I love people I’ve met within her, but I have a very, very hard time believing The Church believes what she claims to believe when I hear every day about the latest heterodoxy, or even unorthodoxy being spouted by bishops and priests and laity. I struggle with being in Communion with a church that seems to compromise truth at every turn and be far more concerned with politics than saving souls.

Beware of hasty generalizations.

You’ll find the same mix of sheep and goats in any of the Orthodox Churches because Jesus said that’s just how the Church is.

[BIBLEDRB] Matthew 25:31-46[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[cristyd]

I understand that Orthodoxy isn’t perfect either, but I have to admit that such things seem much more systemic in Catholicism. Yes I could find an orthodox Catholic ‘enclave’ in a solid parish, but that’s just ignoring the fact that this is going on elsewhere and with apparent full approval of Rome. I’ve tried to grin and bear it, but it’s getting more and more difficult.

QUOTE]

I was ortodox and i left it in order to become Catholic. I was baptized and raised as an ortodox and i lived among ortodox people almost all my life. I’m sorry, but my opinion is that the ortodox are more fake then the catholics. Catholic believers and the priest are more true to their word. My feeling was that Ortodox priest are more money oriented and the believers are believers only when they go to Church. And believe me, Orthodox are concerned about politics too. Between the priest i met in my life the ones who truly helped me and truly understood me and listened to me were the Chatolic ones.
In the end it is a personal choice and you have to understand that neitheir is perfection, since they are made of humans and humans make mistakes. However from the moment i was old enough to understand i have always felt more close to the Chatolic religion and I have always wanted to leave Orthodox behind. I have never felt truly welcomed in an ortodox church but i feel always welcome in the Chatolic one.

 

[cristyd]

I told my friend leaving Catholicism would feel like getting a divorce. I love The Church, I love the Holy Father, I believe firmly in her teachings, but for all the gates of hell not prevailing, it certainly seems that the evil one marches through Catholicism with abandon and even, sometimes, welcome. Is this a sign that Christ’s true church lies elsewhere? I’m frustrated, confused, angry, and unbelievably sorrowful, almost to tears. I don’t know what I want or am asking for, maybe I just needed to vent. Anyone have anything for me?

The last time i was in an Orthodox Church the priest forced me to take communion. Forced means that he really made me take it without beeing ready and without wanting. He just decided i will take it. I told him i didn’t confess my sins, i told him i ate before coming to mass but he still wanted me to take it. He said that he is doing a mass confession anyway durring the ceremony. How did i feel taking the body and blood of My Lord on a guilty conscious, full of sins: “frustrated, confused, angry, and unbelievably sorrowful, almost to tears”.

 

[Julian0404]

Do recall Judas, the one who betrayed our LORD? And do you recall who it was that chose Judas, yes it was JESUS. So why would JESUS chose a man who HE knew would betray HIM?
To prepare us, the church, to recognize and deal with those “select” who stray and harm the church. Shocked by them, yes, but accepting and approving their behavior, no. Using them as an excuse to run away is without foundation, after you recognize that JESUS dealt with the same scenario - to HIS death.

The Orthodox Church you are considering, needs to be qualified by you with one question, i.e. does this Orthodox church recognize the Pope as the final authority for this Orthodox Church. If the answer is yes, then you are not leaving the Catholic Church, as every Orthodox Church that looks to the Pope as the final authority is still Catholic.

If the answer is no, they do not recognize the Pope as their final authority, then you are walking away from your salvation, as you are walking away from the truth and order established by JESUS in forming HIS Church.

 

[Rawb]

Why do you think that the evil one takes such a particular aim at the Catholic Church? If it is not THE Church he would not put such an effort into seeking the ruin of souls within it.

So the more corrupt The Church becomes, the more true it is?

If the answer is no, they do not recognize the Pope as their final authority, then you are walking away from your salvation, as you are walking away from the truth and order established by JESUS in forming HIS Church.

I accept the authority of the pope because of the authority of The Church. If The Church is not true then the authority of the pope also falls apart and my salvation is fine.

I don’t mean to follow pure emotions, I’m not leaving The Church without solid theological foundations under the receiving church’s position, which so far I have not found, but I feel that the constant compromises of the truth on behalf of our bishops, priests, and laity may be a symptom of something deeper.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I too were intrigued by Orthodoxy last year. But it led me to Eastern Catholicism. Why not seek out Eastern Catholic parishes? Experience the Eastern traditions but still remain in communion with the Catholic Church

 

[crazzeto]

So the more corrupt The Church becomes, the more true it is?

I accept the authority of the pope because of the authority of The Church. If The Church is not true then the authority of the pope also falls apart and my salvation is fine.

I don’t mean to follow pure emotions, I’m not leaving The Church without solid theological foundations under the receiving church’s position, which so far I have not found, but I feel that the constant compromises of the truth on behalf of our bishops, priests, and laity may be a symptom of something deeper.

Could you be a little more specific? You claim constant contant compramises of the truth, I think in order to respond we need more than a generic reasoning than this.

In all charity, I would ask you to sit, pray and think about this. When has Holy Mother Church ever once, actually done as you suggest. Further, I would suggest that when you compile your list of examples, you ask your self if it is the result of a single heretic (I can produce many examples of these east and west, so I wouldn’t rely on this as a enditement of the church) or is Holy Mother Church her self, truely doing what you claim she is.

God bless,

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Are you single? Watch out for Orthodox women. Some of them have the same attitude to marriage as a tennis player to serving. You see, when you serve in tennis, you can try twice. So, you can risk more on your first attempt, and if it doesn’t work out, no big deal. You can try again. With Orthodox marriage, most EO Churches allow you to divorce twice, and marry three times. Then, some Orthodox folks adopt the attitude that marriage is like tennis, with the difference that you can try thrice instead of twice.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Then, once you have enough kids in your marriage, your Orthodox priest (spiritual director) will give you a “blessing” to go and procure a vasectomy, or for your wife to get a tubal ligation.

Ouch. Self-mutilation with a “blessing”.

 

[dswearin]

You wouldn’t find much of a difference even within Protestantism. Half of the major denominations ordain women and some ordain homosexuals. You can’t generalize this issue to the entire church. It’s like saying all Christians are evil because of the crusades or white Christian supremacists (oxymoron). It doesn’t really fit. Heck, Peter denied Christ three times.

So the more corrupt The Church becomes, the more true it is?

You can’t make that claim, it’s another generalization. If the United States had corrupt politicians (which is probably true), would that make the entirity of the US corrupt? The poster was trying to say that Satan attacks the Church the most because it is the true church. This intensified attack would probably see success. Why bother with most protestant denominations when their denominations are falling to secularist ideology and those churches that are faithful are disorganized (between churches) and ineffective at making large-scale change? The presence of persecution and heavy temptation and satanic attack is evidence that the Catholic Church is the true church.

Avoid generalizations at all costs and try to be as charitable as possible. The Church is made up of fallible, sinful human beings in desperate need of a Savior. Many of those members are there just for fire insurance (like any other denomination), but many are also there because they genuinely love Christ and seek to glorify Him with their lives. I’ve had terrible experiences with Southern Baptists in the past 6 years, but I won’t say that all Southern Baptists are terrible Christians.

These things you see as symptoms are symptoms of disobedience to the truth of Catholic teaching, not the teaching itself or the Church. What it means is that YOU need to step up to Christ’s call to continually seek Him and do everything you can to make change in the Church. If you see a problem, do what you can to fix it. Be the change you want to see in the Church. Bravery and boldness is what the Church needs from its people.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

I love The Church, I love the Holy Father, I believe firmly in her teachings, but …

This is the kicker right here. If you think about it for a while, there really can be no “but.” If you really do believe the Church’s claims, then you believe it is the true Church and the place where God wants all men to be. To leave it under this belief would be to willfully do other than God wants, and to perpetuate in that state would be… bad.

I don’t mean to be overly harsh, and I understand what you’re saying about the bad stuff in the Church, but remember that we ultimately follow God’s truth above all else. Yes, the specific humans involved are sinful, but so it was from the beginning. Remember that St. Peter - often referred to as the Prince of the Apostles and the Rock on which the Church is founded - denied Christ three times and sank into a lake because he lacked faith. And in the past, we have had popes who had mistresses and children. But Peter is still the rock, and the Catholic Church is still the Church built upon that rock.

But it would be a mistake to focus only on the sin in the Church. For every brother or sister wearing a rainbow pin to mass, you could easily find one working with the pour or praying in a monastery, and for every time a priest or a bishop does his best to put his foot in the collective mouth of the Church, another priest is staying up all night with a mother at her dying son’s hospital bed, baptizing an infant, or celebrating a marriage that joins two individuals into a family. And it would take a long time to mention all the Catholic missions to Haiti and other places, where laymen struggle to bring food, medicine and clean water to those who have none. There is a lot of good in the Church.

Sometimes it may seem like the bad outnumbers the good, but this is simply not so. Often times the good happens so constantly that we consider it normal and don’t even notice that it’s happening, while the bad sticks out like a sore thumb. Perhaps you could check other news sources to remind yourself what the Church really does (NewAdvent dot org gathers many interesting stories on its front page, some more relevant to others) or check out the writings of (as opposed to about) people such as Pope Benedict XVI to see where the Church is headed.

 

[dswearin]

I think one thing to remember is how much more the evil things in this life stand out than the good. The news only posts the corrupt things or the abuses that happen in the church. I never see things in the news about the beautiful acts of charity and love that happen everyday from those in the church. The vast amount of good that the Catholic church does overwhelms the evil that some of it’s members have done.

 

[FCEGM]

So the more corrupt The Church becomes, the more true it is?

Of course not. The intensity of the attacks against the Church is a measure of her truth. The Church, being the extension of Christ’s incarnation in the world, is NEVER corrupt. Some within her may be so, but that does not overthrow her truth and holiness. One looks to the faithful - particularly the Saints who have arisen within the Church - to see the Church in its reality. Keep in mind that the evil one will use any tactic, including the seduction of something perceived to be better than the Church, to get the result he wants: a diminishment of fidelity to Christ through abandoning His Vicar. And then the self-justification of this betrayal will increase the person’s pride in his own wisdom and sanctity, and thus another temptation will have been successfully employed by the evil one.

 

[Julian0404]

So the more corrupt The Church becomes, the more true it is?

I accept the authority of the pope because of the authority of The Church. I am glad that you do, but the question of qualification is not to you, but to the Bishop and/or Priest of the Orthodox Church you are considering joining. Do “they” as the leaders of the Orthodox Church that you are considering joining, do “they” also acknowledge the Pope as the final authority. Some Orthodox do, some Orthodox do not. Do not join one that does not. So ask them. And it is a simple yes or no answer.

If The Church is not true then the authority of the pope also falls apart and my salvation is fine.

I don’t mean to follow pure emotions, I’m not leaving The Church without solid theological foundations under the receiving church’s position, which so far I have not found, but I feel that the constant compromises of the truth on behalf of our bishops, priests, and laity may be a symptom of something deeper.

". . . constant compromises of the truth on behalf of our bishops and priests, and laity…" Compromises have been made, yes. Serious harm has been done by them, as regards the long time sexual abuse under specific bishops by specific priests. But constantly, no. Not that it releases the harm or responsibility, but the actual bishops and priest involved are a tiny minority of the whole of GOD’s ordained. That certainly is not constant. And Judas was also a tiny minority of JESUS apostles, and he did great harm, but not constantly. And the laity, I do not know of any “constant” compromise which any laity has done that effects the whole church.
As you continue in your growth in faith, I would like to suggest that you begin a study of evil. Why does GOD permit evil to exist in the world? Why does GOD allow bad things to happen? From our discourse, I believe the answers you discover will be of great benefit to your continue walk with the LORD. I will pray a Rosary for your faith journey.

 

[JW55]

You sound sincere in your attempt to find truth and you appear not to be “jumping ship” on a whim. I would not get in any hurry in your decision. That may take you years. The fact that you question things, means you will grow and not be stagnant as many do.

The Orthodox Church does have many wonderful things to offer, and the Divine Liturgy is very beautiful. In the same light, the Catholic Church will offer you much if you look for it. If you haven’t already, visit an Orthodox Church and possibly talk to a priest about your concerns. In all fairness, do so with a Catholic priest, as well. Visit an Eastern Catholic Church, this may pacify your searching.

Both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have their set of scoundrals. Don’t assume that everyone in the Orthodox Church “tows the line”. For either church, remember because there are parishioners or priests or people in authority who chose to twist the teachings of the church to fit their needs, that doesn’t make their beliefs “true”.

I would also encourage you to try to find a more traditional or conservative “orthodox teaching” Catholic Church that faithfully follows the guidelines of the magisterial teachings faithfully and attend there for a while and see what you think.

Also make a chart with two columns and list the main teaching of each of the Catholic and Orthodox Churches and see if you agree with both or either of them. There are several minor differences between the two churches, but really only a few major ones: 1- The authority of the Pope, and 2-the filoque (this has somewhat been resolved, but not completely). Compare the two, then ask yourself the question: If you live by the “true” teachings of either church, will changing make any difference on how you live your life? I suspect if you are a practicing Christian, it would not make a difference. In any case, you have to be true to the guidings of the Holy Spirit within you.

They are both wonderful Churches and I hope one day they are “one Church”.

 

[thenobes]

So the more corrupt The Church becomes, the more true it is?

No, the point is that this corruption, when there, is more evident in the Catholic Church, because the practices of those who are corrupted may be more readiliy contrasted with her teachings.

When teachings are wishy-washy, any activities appear OK.

But in the Church, even those who teach wishy-washily can be compared, and found wanting, to an objective standard that is knowable to anyone within the Church who desires to find it. As you have.

It’s like the lives of the Saints. The saw themselves as more and more miserable even as they were clser to God and more near to His image. The closeness of God made them see all their faults more clearly.

peace
Steve

 

[Rawb]

I hesitate to do this, because people will make it about each individual case and that’s not the point. The point is the overall movement within The Church. Nevertheless here are some of the things I see that, to me, bring into question The Church’s belief in Christ:

**From the catechism: **841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

Pope John Paul II’s action here

In light of this why have I never heard a homily preaching on the sin of homosexuality? Why have I never heard a sermon on sin? Why have I only heard one on contraception, considering this, and that was at a daily Mass? All of this despite the fact that I went to a conservative parish? I did get my bishop’s letter on the evils of those who are against illegal immigration.

Why is the Novus Ordo so aesthetically bankrupt, especially when we see the beauty in the Divine Liturgy and the Tridentine (which I attend. I’m lucky - there are two, exactly two such Masses in my entire diocese and one happens to be in my city now. How gracious of my bishop to provide for his flock). Why do we see this happening? Why has the (strongly) arguably heretical translation of “Pro multis” been allowed to be used for over forty years?

Right now I’m in communion with this parish, which is suffering no repercussions from what I can tell, but this organization is treated like lepers.

I could be entirely wrong. I may have to admit that The Church is going through a crises just as the Jews not obeying God in the Old Testament but still possessing The Truth, even if they didn’t know it.Honestly that is the position I lean towards right now. I’m no longer able, however, to lightly ignore these or just focus on the positive in the Church. The hierarchy needs to get it’s act together, and I mean now.

 

[Junebug999]

Beware of hasty generalizations.

You’ll find the same mix of sheep and goats in any of the Orthodox Churches because Jesus said that’s just how the Church is.

SHEEP and GOATS!!! And priests can be SHEEP sometimes…

Thank you, I think I needed to be reminded of that as well. Cat Herder, if you get a chance read my thread posted today about what I heard at a diocesan congress. I was really disappointed…not going to leave the Church…but I want the most traditional parish I can find! (I think I’m in it!) : )