T
TradionalWay
Guest
Extreme lustSo what?
What kind of behavior are you trying to justify?
- Status
P
Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
It is funny that Godswin law is going on.
Not a word about the 20 million black who were deported to America.
Not a word about American Students not participating in the UNESCO Transatlantic Slave Trade Program (TST) ( I do not know whether they already arrived but for many years NO and were NOT in the founding chapter), as other countries like Norway, Danmark, UK, Holland, Spain and Portugal. I was there ans asked the dumb question in Paris: âWhy isnât here a representantion of the USA?â. The Director looked at me like as seeing an ET and said: âThe USA does not belong to UNESCO !â. I was dumbfoundedâŚ
Sorry, the USA has got only good points, only values, No sins, no dark spots. That is for the Germans (whose students study the III Reich till exhaution).
The USA does not belong to the International Tribunal of Hague like any other nation on Earth.
Sometimes, USA citizens think that the world does not understand them. That they have done âso muchâ for the world, and here comes always the D-DAY and the world does not understand them. When France takes an opposite position about the invasion of Iraq, well lets boycott French products and call French Fries , Liberty fries
eek. But some arrogant atitudes of some Americans let the world know that America is the Best, spotless and patronizing, and people do not like it.Not me. With me there is no problem because I am vaccinated. But your speech ts one of thoseâŚ
The USA has NO dart spots in the past AT ALL. and none in the future.
L
Ladervijd
Guest
Actually, I was trying to point out what you pointed out, regarding polluted social environment which concerns not only the U.S.
I certainly didnât mean to say that west or U.S. are perfect, and there is difference between netiquette and sins (and whether or not there were absolutions to particular âcollective sinsâ), albeit this brings us e.g. to whether one can commit a sin by talking (some- or any-thing in particular)?
There certainly are misconceptions of the west too, and that within the west too, such as about the concept of âfree sexualityâ, which I think usually refers to sex in a (casual, and consensual and within law) relationship (with contraception), aside from (religious) criticism thereof.
I certainly didnât mean to say that west or U.S. are perfect, and there is difference between netiquette and sins (and whether or not there were absolutions to particular âcollective sinsâ), albeit this brings us e.g. to whether one can commit a sin by talking (some- or any-thing in particular)?
Partially. A young Muslim male was born to Muslim parents, grew up in Islamic(-ish) surroundings, and when from a lower income household (in flat) then more probable that he spent time in streets (in clique/gang), without ever attending university. Which partially applies to many young human males, albeit with different approach to issues regarding young malehood.
There certainly are misconceptions of the west too, and that within the west too, such as about the concept of âfree sexualityâ, which I think usually refers to sex in a (casual, and consensual and within law) relationship (with contraception), aside from (religious) criticism thereof.
Yes, there are differences if we were to compare. I would say they are more alike than different aside from interpretations. Abrahamic religions.
Wouldnât say so.
Why, and if when, criticize anything?
K
KathleenGee
Guest
You have to look back on how Islam originatedâŚits penchant for wanting to overtake the world and make everyone else second class citizens.
How many Muslims have gone to Catholic schools and have been given the respect to keep their faith while receiving a fine education?
Yes, honor killings is more a cultural thingâŚbut as this thread was showing, the manner of dress for womenâŚit isnât in the QuoranâŚbut has been codified by extreme Muslim men the rest have no control overâŚto redefine themselves and Islam as barbaric and totalitarian.
I knew little of Islam until after 9/11âŚI read about the white European woman slave tradeâŚthe Arabic slave trade and worked with Africans who told me stories passed downâŚand in no way am I either erasing the guilt of Europeans who were equally bad if not worse.
I studied the history of Islam and its conquest of the Holy Land, its overtaking and decimating once teeming Christian populations of Egypt, Syria, and PalestineâŚthe original Christians of the Holy Land are leaving after 2,000 years. The population of Copts, Assyrian Christians in Iraq are being decimated and they are now in greater danger.
Where is your own humanity? Why is it that when such debates come as this, the peaceful Christians are made out as deserving or bringing on such atrocities?
And then you look at the Muslims who consider any American a Christian. They see us as sluts.
I would invite you to look at www.Hebrewcatholic.orgâŚand see how Catholicism is the fulfillment of JudaismâŚand there are about 22 different identities within Judaism, many different sub groups of faith for such a small population of peoplesâŚ
I also see a tremendous disconnect from Muslims having a total indifference as to why Christians and Jews are not wanting to overtake the Hajj or take over their holy lands.
The Holy Land is under the rule and control of Islam. I have read the history of Palestine going back to the 1940âs and there is truth that Palestine these days is an invented state, considering the influx of Muslims coming in to pack up the numbers.
We were told as children that some day, as written in Scripture, that the Jews would be allowed to return to their homeland.
Theirs is the Covenant of the Land as well as the Law. Such a tiny landâŚyes, the means they did to return were wrong, and they suffer to this day for their own atrocities against ArabsâŚbut it was a scrub landâŚand they turned Israel into a producing land. They were expelled from Israel, they chose not to leave, several million died 2,000 years ago trying to hold on to their land. And now they return.
I find Islam too possessive and subjugating, the role of believer to God more as a slave.
And the word, âloveâ, does not even enter into GodâŚwhere is the humanity towards non-Muslims?
How many Muslims have gone to Catholic schools and have been given the respect to keep their faith while receiving a fine education?
Yes, honor killings is more a cultural thingâŚbut as this thread was showing, the manner of dress for womenâŚit isnât in the QuoranâŚbut has been codified by extreme Muslim men the rest have no control overâŚto redefine themselves and Islam as barbaric and totalitarian.
I knew little of Islam until after 9/11âŚI read about the white European woman slave tradeâŚthe Arabic slave trade and worked with Africans who told me stories passed downâŚand in no way am I either erasing the guilt of Europeans who were equally bad if not worse.
I studied the history of Islam and its conquest of the Holy Land, its overtaking and decimating once teeming Christian populations of Egypt, Syria, and PalestineâŚthe original Christians of the Holy Land are leaving after 2,000 years. The population of Copts, Assyrian Christians in Iraq are being decimated and they are now in greater danger.
Where is your own humanity? Why is it that when such debates come as this, the peaceful Christians are made out as deserving or bringing on such atrocities?
And then you look at the Muslims who consider any American a Christian. They see us as sluts.
I would invite you to look at www.Hebrewcatholic.orgâŚand see how Catholicism is the fulfillment of JudaismâŚand there are about 22 different identities within Judaism, many different sub groups of faith for such a small population of peoplesâŚ
I also see a tremendous disconnect from Muslims having a total indifference as to why Christians and Jews are not wanting to overtake the Hajj or take over their holy lands.
The Holy Land is under the rule and control of Islam. I have read the history of Palestine going back to the 1940âs and there is truth that Palestine these days is an invented state, considering the influx of Muslims coming in to pack up the numbers.
We were told as children that some day, as written in Scripture, that the Jews would be allowed to return to their homeland.
Theirs is the Covenant of the Land as well as the Law. Such a tiny landâŚyes, the means they did to return were wrong, and they suffer to this day for their own atrocities against ArabsâŚbut it was a scrub landâŚand they turned Israel into a producing land. They were expelled from Israel, they chose not to leave, several million died 2,000 years ago trying to hold on to their land. And now they return.
I find Islam too possessive and subjugating, the role of believer to God more as a slave.
And the word, âloveâ, does not even enter into GodâŚwhere is the humanity towards non-Muslims?
A
Amer_Was_Amazed
Guest
Again, not all Muslims are like this and I believe that one of the 99 names of God ( Allah ) in the Quran is Al-Wadud, The Loving. Perhaps true Islam teaches such things, and that i something I have yet to fully investigate, but most Muslims do not stick to this type of extreme Islam but are moderate. In regards to Palestine, I think it is very wrong to say that Palestinians are an invented people for several reasons. First off, there has been a region Palestine for a very long time, and there have been Arabs in that region for a very long time. When Saladin won throughout the Holy Land - which is unfortunate but I believe that was Godâs punishment on the Christians who were pushing themselves away from Jesus Christ in the region and in Europe - in the Crusades, it was Arabs and other groups that moved in. It has been a long time since then and no one can tell me that there have not been Arabs in the region for a very long time, including Mr. Gingrich, who is by no means a historian. Many Palestinians are Christian, and there is a sizeable minority of Palestinian Christians in Nicaragua, which is an interesting history if you look into it. If you look at the demographic distribution of the region of Palestine in 1948, you will see that it was overwhelmingly Arab. The things that happen in Palestine today, especially Ramallah and Gaza City, are absolutely disgusting, and I definitely do not see them as Godâs work nor do many other Catholics or Priests. I donât understand this obsession with Israel in the US. Nowhere else in the world does it exist. When Palestinian kids wake up to a pile of rubble and see guns shooting their fathers that were âMade in Americaâ, they get pretty upset, hence the bad feelings between the United States and the entire Islamic world from one corner to another today, and including many non-Islamic countries as well. Israelâs government in my mind is an ethnocracy, and many Jews are even disgusted by how Palestinians, whether Jewish or Christian, are treated by their government, which in turn makes them hated by at least a billion people worldwide. It is not just mosques but also churches that are attacked in Israel, and if you donât believe me, research. I am not pro-Palestinian. I am not pro-Israeli. I am pro-God, and whatever He thinks is best is best. People need to stop being brainwashed with Israel, because the government and many of the people there are nowhere near model citizens, as is true of course in Palestine. There are good and bad people among both groups, and neither was invented, except at the instant that the group came into existence. In that sense, every ethnic group was âinventedâ. Neither Americans nor Bosnians nor Israelis nor Egyptians existed forever. They all started somewhere. Peace
D
Debora123
Guest
Itâs just another way for the men to feel more powerful and for them to have control over the women rather than themselves. It really is all about control, and it is sick.
P
Pfaffenhoffen
Guest
A few years ago I went with a girlfriend to Morocco and she was in a crowd and she was pinched in the bottom like hell.
I had to give up bringing her near crowds and I was watching always her back.
L
Ladervijd
Guest
I would say that in kind of secular terms, there are many similarities between âIslam originâ and âorigin of the state of U.S.â, in particular, declaration of independence (of the British Empire), law system, political system. There even was conquest by the U.S. (meaning in the war against Mexico), purchase of land with persons living on it (Alaska), and indurent servitude (turned out-right slavery).
Personally, I am mad at and sad because of âhumansâ for many things, and at the same time I am, more or less successfully, trying to stay emotionally detached (kind of a bit of stoicism), partially to avoid (personal) collapse. That, or anything else, doesnât mean that I would consider atrocities as âdeservedâ, albeit the saying âyou reap what you sowâ and âeye for an eyeâ certainly are valid to an extent. Yes, Christianity is a lot about âforgivenessâ, not only to avoid devouring of oneself, but also for state-social order - that doesnât mean nihilism or such would be perfect or desired condition, nor that evil-doers would have any kind of right for doing evil.
Regarding secular Christians (similar to e.g. secular Muslims), that is persons who donât really care or at all about religious law and/or morals, it is at least questionable whether such are real Christians (or e.g. Muslims). So or so, any such Christian usually doesnât speak for any Church (if such Christian speaks about anything within a range of topics).
What is the âroleâ of believers to God in Christianity? That of children to the Father perhaps? If so, not much different to (form of) slavery with sex âpermittedâ only to those who are married to each other (a husband obviously not being married to anyone else but wife), regarding responsibilities and rights, albeit arguably in âcommunity upbringing of childrenâ is barely any dependency. So or so, setting an example of how slaves ought to be treated was more or less a progressive example back then.
Yes, in particular there is the issue of âarranged marriagesâ, which though isnât (just) islamic(ish) cultural, and which is existant e.g. in the west as well, e.g. in forms of introduction only arranged marriages, or arranged marriage for right to stay. Yes, morales, respectivly the practical expression thereof, can be a bit relative (respectivly partially dependant on times and circumstances). Nevertheless, it is still mostly about the same issues (ranging from e.g. incest; or non-socially-adult with child/ren; to whatever).
And personally, in a completly hypothetical scenario of course, if the persons known as Marina and Rihanna were both courting me, and I could marry only one, I probably wouldnât know based on what I ought to make a decision, as each is beautiful, each would certainly make an impression, a good mother, and household and relationship ârulesâ (respectivly my expectation thereof) wouldnât change on who I am in particular with. For âgetting to know each otherâ would be plenty of time in marriage anyways. Besides that, a relativly healthy (and happy) spouse is like a gift from heaven in itself, aside from eventual additional âbonusesâ such as smarts, education, sense for humour, âŚ
Not really romantic per se though.
And, as Amer also pointed out, every nation is an invention, respectivly an âintellectual conceptâ, and rather a slave to Lord God than a slave to intellectual concept, huh? Partially regarding which, Iâve been told that I spend too much time at computer regardless of what I am doing with it, with online communication being snobbed at (regardless of whether employed or not). Apparently, e.g. me sitting in a pub with drunk persons talking about things barely anyone understands in the first place and eventually barely anyone properly remembers the day after is socially considered way more appropriate than e.g. talking in a thread like this. Yes, digital means of communication donât replace non-digital means of communication, and I donât necessarily invest every hour wisely, but I donât really get obsession about âfriendsâ, which probably has to do with me being a bit eremitic, respectivly with a view of who isnât my enemy is my friend.
Anyhow,
my friends are the thirsty, for if I could I would provide them with drink.
my friends are the hungry, for if I could I would provide them with food.
my friends are the sick, for if I could I would cure them.
my friends are the disabled, for if I could I would provide them with what they lack.
my friends are the orphans, for if I could I would provide them with families.
my friends are the trapped, for if I could I would set them free.
my friends are the homeless, for if I could I would provide them with shelter.
my friends are the persecuted, for I would protect them.
my friends are the lonely, for I would provide them with company.
my friends are the bored, for I would provide them with something to do.
and my friends are also the sinners, for I would make them pure (again).
Personally, I am mad at and sad because of âhumansâ for many things, and at the same time I am, more or less successfully, trying to stay emotionally detached (kind of a bit of stoicism), partially to avoid (personal) collapse. That, or anything else, doesnât mean that I would consider atrocities as âdeservedâ, albeit the saying âyou reap what you sowâ and âeye for an eyeâ certainly are valid to an extent. Yes, Christianity is a lot about âforgivenessâ, not only to avoid devouring of oneself, but also for state-social order - that doesnât mean nihilism or such would be perfect or desired condition, nor that evil-doers would have any kind of right for doing evil.
Regarding secular Christians (similar to e.g. secular Muslims), that is persons who donât really care or at all about religious law and/or morals, it is at least questionable whether such are real Christians (or e.g. Muslims). So or so, any such Christian usually doesnât speak for any Church (if such Christian speaks about anything within a range of topics).
What is the âroleâ of believers to God in Christianity? That of children to the Father perhaps? If so, not much different to (form of) slavery with sex âpermittedâ only to those who are married to each other (a husband obviously not being married to anyone else but wife), regarding responsibilities and rights, albeit arguably in âcommunity upbringing of childrenâ is barely any dependency. So or so, setting an example of how slaves ought to be treated was more or less a progressive example back then.
Yes, in particular there is the issue of âarranged marriagesâ, which though isnât (just) islamic(ish) cultural, and which is existant e.g. in the west as well, e.g. in forms of introduction only arranged marriages, or arranged marriage for right to stay. Yes, morales, respectivly the practical expression thereof, can be a bit relative (respectivly partially dependant on times and circumstances). Nevertheless, it is still mostly about the same issues (ranging from e.g. incest; or non-socially-adult with child/ren; to whatever).
And personally, in a completly hypothetical scenario of course, if the persons known as Marina and Rihanna were both courting me, and I could marry only one, I probably wouldnât know based on what I ought to make a decision, as each is beautiful, each would certainly make an impression, a good mother, and household and relationship ârulesâ (respectivly my expectation thereof) wouldnât change on who I am in particular with. For âgetting to know each otherâ would be plenty of time in marriage anyways.
Besides that, a relativly healthy (and happy) spouse is like a gift from heaven in itself, aside from eventual additional âbonusesâ such as smarts, education, sense for humour, âŚNot really romantic per se though.
And, as Amer also pointed out, every nation is an invention, respectivly an âintellectual conceptâ, and rather a slave to Lord God than a slave to intellectual concept, huh? Partially regarding which, Iâve been told that I spend too much time at computer regardless of what I am doing with it, with online communication being snobbed at (regardless of whether employed or not). Apparently, e.g. me sitting in a pub with drunk persons talking about things barely anyone understands in the first place and eventually barely anyone properly remembers the day after is socially considered way more appropriate than e.g. talking in a thread like this. Yes, digital means of communication donât replace non-digital means of communication, and I donât necessarily invest every hour wisely, but I donât really get obsession about âfriendsâ, which probably has to do with me being a bit eremitic, respectivly with a view of who isnât my enemy is my friend.
Anyhow,
my friends are the thirsty, for if I could I would provide them with drink.
my friends are the hungry, for if I could I would provide them with food.
my friends are the sick, for if I could I would cure them.
my friends are the disabled, for if I could I would provide them with what they lack.
my friends are the orphans, for if I could I would provide them with families.
my friends are the trapped, for if I could I would set them free.
my friends are the homeless, for if I could I would provide them with shelter.
my friends are the persecuted, for I would protect them.
my friends are the lonely, for I would provide them with company.
my friends are the bored, for I would provide them with something to do.
and my friends are also the sinners, for I would make them pure (again).
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I am having to workâŚbut will come back to answerâŚas far as the last postâs ending sentiments, those are exactly the same that I shareâŚ
But does Islam share the same sentiments for non-Muslims?..because those last words reflect Christ on how we will all be judgedâŚ
There is a prayer composed by St Faustina to the Blessed MotherâŚaddressing her strength of suffering, and asking her protection from those who hide their malice with the veil of religionâŚrecalling as well, the veil that was torn in the Temple the moment of Christâs death.
I can walk by a Muslim coveredâŚbut I do not experience Godâs presence in that coveringâŚsome times the attitude that comes through the veil is cold and judgmental towards me, a white woman of European descentâŚanother time, I stopped my car so a Muslima could cross the road. She wore the long clothes, her face was not coveredâŚand it afforded me to witness a most profound, and loving smile of gratitudeâŚI would like to meet my neighbors, but because I am a woman, the initiation is difficult.
But does Islam share the same sentiments for non-Muslims?..because those last words reflect Christ on how we will all be judgedâŚ
There is a prayer composed by St Faustina to the Blessed MotherâŚaddressing her strength of suffering, and asking her protection from those who hide their malice with the veil of religionâŚrecalling as well, the veil that was torn in the Temple the moment of Christâs death.
I can walk by a Muslim coveredâŚbut I do not experience Godâs presence in that coveringâŚsome times the attitude that comes through the veil is cold and judgmental towards me, a white woman of European descentâŚanother time, I stopped my car so a Muslima could cross the road. She wore the long clothes, her face was not coveredâŚand it afforded me to witness a most profound, and loving smile of gratitudeâŚI would like to meet my neighbors, but because I am a woman, the initiation is difficult.
A
Amer_Was_Amazed
Guest
I agree completely with the âintellectual conceptâ way of explaining it. Good way to describe that.I would say that in kind of secular terms, there are many similarities between âIslam originâ and âorigin of the state of U.S.â, in particular, declaration of independence (of the British Empire), law system, political system. There even was conquest by the U.S. (meaning in the war against Mexico), purchase of land with persons living on it (Alaska), and indurent servitude (turned out-right slavery).
Personally, I am mad at and sad because of âhumansâ for many things, and at the same time I am, more or less successfully, trying to stay emotionally detached (kind of a bit of stoicism), partially to avoid (personal) collapse. That, or anything else, doesnât mean that I would consider atrocities as âdeservedâ, albeit the saying âyou reap what you sowâ and âeye for an eyeâ certainly are valid to an extent. Yes, Christianity is a lot about âforgivenessâ, not only to avoid devouring of oneself, but also for state-social order - that doesnât mean nihilism or such would be perfect or desired condition, nor that evil-doers would have any kind of right for doing evil.
Regarding secular Christians (similar to e.g. secular Muslims), that is persons who donât really care or at all about religious law and/or morals, it is at least questionable whether such are real Christians (or e.g. Muslims). So or so, any such Christian usually doesnât speak for any Church (if such Christian speaks about anything within a range of topics).
What is the âroleâ of believers to God in Christianity? That of children to the Father perhaps? If so, not much different to (form of) slavery with sex âpermittedâ only to those who are married to each other (a husband obviously not being married to anyone else but wife), regarding responsibilities and rights, albeit arguably in âcommunity upbringing of childrenâ is barely any dependency. So or so, setting an example of how slaves ought to be treated was more or less a progressive example back then.
Yes, in particular there is the issue of âarranged marriagesâ, which though isnât (just) islamic(ish) cultural, and which is existant e.g. in the west as well, e.g. in forms of introduction only arranged marriages, or arranged marriage for right to stay. Yes, morales, respectivly the practical expression thereof, can be a bit relative (respectivly partially dependant on times and circumstances). Nevertheless, it is still mostly about the same issues (ranging from e.g. incest; or non-socially-adult with child/ren; to whatever).
And personally, in a completly hypothetical scenario of course, if the persons known as Marina and Rihanna were both courting me, and I could marry only one, I probably wouldnât know based on what I ought to make a decision, as each is beautiful, each would certainly make an impression, a good mother, and household and relationship ârulesâ (respectivly my expectation thereof) wouldnât change on who I am in particular with. For âgetting to know each otherâ would be plenty of time in marriage anyways.
Not really romantic per se though.
And, as Amer also pointed out, every nation is an invention, respectivly an âintellectual conceptâ, and rather a slave to Lord God than a slave to intellectual concept, huh? Partially regarding which, Iâve been told that I spend too much time at computer regardless of what I am doing with it, with online communication being snobbed at (regardless of whether employed or not). Apparently, e.g. me sitting in a pub with drunk persons talking about things barely anyone understands in the first place and eventually barely anyone properly remembers the day after is socially considered way more appropriate than e.g. talking in a thread like this. Yes, digital means of communication donât replace non-digital means of communication, and I donât necessarily invest every hour wisely, but I donât really get obsession about âfriendsâ, which probably has to do with me being a bit eremitic, respectivly with a view of who isnât my enemy is my friend.
Anyhow,
my friends are the thirsty, for if I could I would provide them with drink.
my friends are the hungry, for if I could I would provide them with food.
my friends are the sick, for if I could I would cure them.
my friends are the disabled, for if I could I would provide them with what they lack.
my friends are the orphans, for if I could I would provide them with families.
my friends are the trapped, for if I could I would set them free.
my friends are the homeless, for if I could I would provide them with shelter.
my friends are the persecuted, for I would protect them.
my friends are the lonely, for I would provide them with company.
my friends are the bored, for I would provide them with something to do.
and my friends are also the sinners, for I would make them pure (again).
L
Ladervijd
Guest
*arranged marriage by introduction, meant as being introduced/initiated in a meeting e.g. by relative to a potential spouse without basically any further action by relative.
Muslims see it, I assume, as well as bodily and spiritual processes anyhow, with emphasis of remission of sin/s on the sinner and the sinner doing so rather earlier than later before death. Plus also that there is lower to no likelyhood of a successful remission especially if sin didnât happen âout of ignoranceâ (not not having been told, but rather knowing that it is wrong; being told though helps to know but such telling can, doesnât necessarily have to, bring falseness ond falsehood with it) but not exclusivly. Or something as such.
Well, these women may have been wondering how many men you led astray, wrongly in such assumption I am sure, or they may have been envying of your personal beauty, respectivly of your emanation. Not that I would think that such things are common among Muslim women, on the contrary, yet such things are in the realm of the possible, especially when seeing you (I guess).
I think it is easier for you as woman to meet women Muslim neighbours than it would be for me. Albeit probably true that it would be in such situation more appropriate for men to arrange families meeting.
âIntellectual conceptâ is perhaps rather a harsh choice of words in regard to ânationâ though. Nevertheless, nations are entities exceeding the definition of merely being groups of individuals.
Muslims see it, I assume, as well as bodily and spiritual processes anyhow, with emphasis of remission of sin/s on the sinner and the sinner doing so rather earlier than later before death. Plus also that there is lower to no likelyhood of a successful remission especially if sin didnât happen âout of ignoranceâ (not not having been told, but rather knowing that it is wrong; being told though helps to know but such telling can, doesnât necessarily have to, bring falseness ond falsehood with it) but not exclusivly. Or something as such.
Well, these women may have been wondering how many men you led astray, wrongly in such assumption I am sure, or they may have been envying of your personal beauty, respectivly of your emanation. Not that I would think that such things are common among Muslim women, on the contrary, yet such things are in the realm of the possible, especially when seeing you (I guess).
I think it is easier for you as woman to meet women Muslim neighbours than it would be for me.
Albeit probably true that it would be in such situation more appropriate for men to arrange families meeting.I agree completely with the âintellectual conceptâ way of explaining it. Good way to describe that.
âIntellectual conceptâ is perhaps rather a harsh choice of words in regard to ânationâ though. Nevertheless, nations are entities exceeding the definition of merely being groups of individuals.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
My bottom line is there is a tendency to invalidate Americansâ intuitive sensitivity to those Muslims entering our countryâŚ
Honestly, I did not see women dress as such until right after 9/11. I remember a car in front of me going into the bankâŚa month later? and a Muslim woman walking out in white, with a band around her forehead with Islamic inscriptions in green, her face covered, walking very aggressively into the bank, her arms swinging back and forth.
There is the issue of these people suing to impose their veil on our people irregardless of the disregard for our sensitivityâŚand the strong impression that these same individuals would not afford us the right to wear our crucifix around our necks in Muslim countries, or be allowed to share and explain ChristianityâŚfrom the Christian historical reality vs the story created by Muslims about Christ Himself
Some time in 1994, I had this dreamâŚthat I was at the park in the summer with my friend and childrenâŚa beautiful day in a place where I played as a child with my parents and grandparents and siblingsâŚ
In the dream, we saw people with white robes, covered faces come into the parkâŚand in our American way, our first sentiments were to be tolerant and respect them for their differences. But they stared back at us with cold, icey looksâŚmore and more congregated and we looked to see that there were many encircling us.
The next thing in the dream was the public water fountainâŚand the sun was shining down brilliantly on something that was brought there to be washedâŚI then saw it was a knife for sacrificeâŚI then had the impression in the dream that these people had these knives hidden under their long robesâŚand then they began chanting, the circle becoming smaller and smaller until they finally took out their knives and lunged at us.
I felt this knife to deep into my heartâŚand I literally rose up out of my bed panting in shock. It took me time to calm down. I have never had a dream like that in my life.
A Muslim community was literally created in our neighborhood. And they were wearing the long clothes and veils. We ended up having the most violent mosque gathering 2 miles from my home, according to the FBI. They were arrested and put into prison. Later a Muslim woman rear ended me, did not have her info with her, I had to follow her home and met her husband, and he began insinuating that I was possibly the type to make up stuffâŚI heard nothing from my insurance company until someone called telling me they lied about the accident. The woman hit me so hard, her foot caught by her long dressâŚthat she left her license plate info indented on back of my carâŚbut it was their arrogance and assumption towards me.
You come to our country, you come to integrate. LIkewise we must do the same. But I do not think we would be given the same rights as these very ones who are creating scenariosâŚthe FBI said 80% of bigotry crimes reported by Muslims in our country in this past decade were bogus.
This is my reaction to those who invalidate our concerns and reactions to women being dressed like thatâŚit is not normal. There is a perversion in this type of dressâŚ
And in ScripturesâŚin ancient times, in Israel, a passage said it was the prostitutes who would cover their faces with a veil.
The Muslims like CAIR are working to stop any criticism of Islam in our country.
Honestly, I did not see women dress as such until right after 9/11. I remember a car in front of me going into the bankâŚa month later? and a Muslim woman walking out in white, with a band around her forehead with Islamic inscriptions in green, her face covered, walking very aggressively into the bank, her arms swinging back and forth.
There is the issue of these people suing to impose their veil on our people irregardless of the disregard for our sensitivityâŚand the strong impression that these same individuals would not afford us the right to wear our crucifix around our necks in Muslim countries, or be allowed to share and explain ChristianityâŚfrom the Christian historical reality vs the story created by Muslims about Christ Himself
Some time in 1994, I had this dreamâŚthat I was at the park in the summer with my friend and childrenâŚa beautiful day in a place where I played as a child with my parents and grandparents and siblingsâŚ
In the dream, we saw people with white robes, covered faces come into the parkâŚand in our American way, our first sentiments were to be tolerant and respect them for their differences. But they stared back at us with cold, icey looksâŚmore and more congregated and we looked to see that there were many encircling us.
The next thing in the dream was the public water fountainâŚand the sun was shining down brilliantly on something that was brought there to be washedâŚI then saw it was a knife for sacrificeâŚI then had the impression in the dream that these people had these knives hidden under their long robesâŚand then they began chanting, the circle becoming smaller and smaller until they finally took out their knives and lunged at us.
I felt this knife to deep into my heartâŚand I literally rose up out of my bed panting in shock. It took me time to calm down. I have never had a dream like that in my life.
A Muslim community was literally created in our neighborhood. And they were wearing the long clothes and veils. We ended up having the most violent mosque gathering 2 miles from my home, according to the FBI. They were arrested and put into prison. Later a Muslim woman rear ended me, did not have her info with her, I had to follow her home and met her husband, and he began insinuating that I was possibly the type to make up stuffâŚI heard nothing from my insurance company until someone called telling me they lied about the accident. The woman hit me so hard, her foot caught by her long dressâŚthat she left her license plate info indented on back of my carâŚbut it was their arrogance and assumption towards me.
You come to our country, you come to integrate. LIkewise we must do the same. But I do not think we would be given the same rights as these very ones who are creating scenariosâŚthe FBI said 80% of bigotry crimes reported by Muslims in our country in this past decade were bogus.
This is my reaction to those who invalidate our concerns and reactions to women being dressed like thatâŚit is not normal. There is a perversion in this type of dressâŚ
And in ScripturesâŚin ancient times, in Israel, a passage said it was the prostitutes who would cover their faces with a veil.
The Muslims like CAIR are working to stop any criticism of Islam in our country.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
There was a remark on why do Americans favor Israel.
There are historically here levels of society that are indeed anti-Jewish. I know they are here, heard there was an anti-Jewish area that is also Christian fundamentalist. I know Evangelicals are very pro-Israel, but some times I have the impression that their preachers are usingâŚâthose who bless Israel will be blessedâ.
I was raised in a devout Catholic family and we have no anti-Semitism. I have always felt sorry for the Jewish people and how they have been treated down through the ages. I have a number of Jewish clients. I was able to ask some of them if they would move to Israel, and they said no. They are highly educated. And I find the American Jewish families here most reasonable and have the best inner family relations.
I respect the Jewish people may be because of the Liturgy of the Word at Mass, where we hear of their history of faith and falling away in the Old Testament, their psalms of praise of God, and their preparation in bringing to the world the Messiah.
So I am grateful to them for bringing us Christ, the Holy Family, the Apostles, saintsâŚthe first original church was in Jerusalem. The administrative form of the Catholic Church is drawn from the original episcopal â meaning one headâŚof Jewish tradition, rather than a council of leaders â conciliar model.
And our altars and motifs are drawn from the Old TestamentâŚto the daily custom of the Breaking of Bread.
But essentially, I would say the American consciousness is psychically connected to the return of the Jews to Israel. I donât think how they entered was right. America is so young in comparison to the time the Arabs have lived there. I do not think it is right how the Muslims over took sacred land not shared by them.
In essence, I see Jerusalem now as an international cityâŚand the only solution to Israel that the Muslims need to go back to see how and what justification they had in overcoming Jerusalem and sacred places, the dhimmitude that was imposed in certain eras by Muslim sultans, and the reality of Scripture that some day the Jews would return. Israel is held sacred by Judaism, which always has upheld the Covenant of the Law and the Covenant of the Land and that they were expelled against their will. The Holy Land is the place of Christ, the Gospels and Pentecost of the Christians.
And when caring for a survivor of Dachau, a Hungarian Jewess, I attended discussions at the lunch table, and the patrons there shared with me demographic information of Israel showing how there was a great movement by Arabs to settle in parts of Israel after the return of the JewsâŚ
There are historically here levels of society that are indeed anti-Jewish. I know they are here, heard there was an anti-Jewish area that is also Christian fundamentalist. I know Evangelicals are very pro-Israel, but some times I have the impression that their preachers are usingâŚâthose who bless Israel will be blessedâ.
I was raised in a devout Catholic family and we have no anti-Semitism. I have always felt sorry for the Jewish people and how they have been treated down through the ages. I have a number of Jewish clients. I was able to ask some of them if they would move to Israel, and they said no. They are highly educated. And I find the American Jewish families here most reasonable and have the best inner family relations.
I respect the Jewish people may be because of the Liturgy of the Word at Mass, where we hear of their history of faith and falling away in the Old Testament, their psalms of praise of God, and their preparation in bringing to the world the Messiah.
So I am grateful to them for bringing us Christ, the Holy Family, the Apostles, saintsâŚthe first original church was in Jerusalem. The administrative form of the Catholic Church is drawn from the original episcopal â meaning one headâŚof Jewish tradition, rather than a council of leaders â conciliar model.
And our altars and motifs are drawn from the Old TestamentâŚto the daily custom of the Breaking of Bread.
But essentially, I would say the American consciousness is psychically connected to the return of the Jews to Israel. I donât think how they entered was right. America is so young in comparison to the time the Arabs have lived there. I do not think it is right how the Muslims over took sacred land not shared by them.
In essence, I see Jerusalem now as an international cityâŚand the only solution to Israel that the Muslims need to go back to see how and what justification they had in overcoming Jerusalem and sacred places, the dhimmitude that was imposed in certain eras by Muslim sultans, and the reality of Scripture that some day the Jews would return. Israel is held sacred by Judaism, which always has upheld the Covenant of the Law and the Covenant of the Land and that they were expelled against their will. The Holy Land is the place of Christ, the Gospels and Pentecost of the Christians.
And when caring for a survivor of Dachau, a Hungarian Jewess, I attended discussions at the lunch table, and the patrons there shared with me demographic information of Israel showing how there was a great movement by Arabs to settle in parts of Israel after the return of the JewsâŚ
L
Ladervijd
Guest
Regarding the mentioned bank incident, I think there is a verse in the Quran which says in the meaning of that women should wear long clothing when going abroad as to not entice whoever. So or so, I donât think âwalking very aggressively into a bankâ is illegal per se. And perhaps she found out hidden bank charges or something as such, or she was/is approaching social life in a kind of performance approach, or perhaps she was/is the pioneer of Occupy.
Part of what we are talking about is, as I see it, a load of prejudice as in discrimination because of⌠some reason/s I guess. Sure, them âcruelâ Muslims arriving in the âpeacefulâ U.S. can be scary to many, and I guess it is a bit about fire-test. Nevertheless, it isnât just about perception but also about factual behaviour and about discrimination. Many of these things are in the âhistoryâ of (not only) Christianity as well, respectivly can be explained on examples - e.g. there is the LRA which âisâ (allegedly - depending on definition) Christian. Do you personally feel anyhow responsible for their actions? And if you personally would decide to turn them back on a righteous path, how would you go on about it?
While I donât see anything wrong about proper dress codes (as in for events) nor, as mentioned, about proper health and safety rules (part of which is what is clothing made of and eventually with what it was treated), I think that any female has as much freedom to wear e.g. a burqa as a male has to wear e.g. hat, sun glasses and scarf, albeit in case of burqa we are talking about something in the lines of a religious trademark, respectivly burqas being sacred (indirectly). Not sure if it would be correct to say that a burqa is a religious habit, in my opinion it isnât unless worn in âassociationâ with a religious order (/tariqa), respectivly the code of dress thereof. So or so, albeit not the same in overall function, as far as social function (that is blocking views) is concerned cornettes can be very similar with blocking views on sides and on up-front with bowed head, without muffled voice though.
As you point out, long dress, similarly to riding e.g. a horse, can hinder proper riding/driving.
I donât really know what is meant by âproper integrationâ. Laws, sure, part of which is freedom of religion, and I donât how much, if at all, is Islam anti-U.S.-constitutional.
Bigotry can have various forms I guess, and it can be hidden under a veil of not-only religion, as in the bigoter bigoting the bigoted âwithin lawâ. If âbogusâ is meant as false accusation, I donât think that it is legal for such in any or most legal systems, keeping in mind of course that accusation can be considered by accuser as being substantiated regardless of whether it is substantiated or not.
Dreams can be (influenced) by various factors. E.g. what you described sounds a bit as about a medical operation. So or so, from what I know, sacrifices of animals in Judaism, Christianity and Islam are done by slicing the throat, so explaination could be even that you had in your body too much cholesterol (at that time in 1994).
It sure would be nice if refugees had proper homes, without at least any kind of physical violence, etcetera.
Part of what we are talking about is, as I see it, a load of prejudice as in discrimination because of⌠some reason/s I guess. Sure, them âcruelâ Muslims arriving in the âpeacefulâ U.S. can be scary to many, and I guess it is a bit about fire-test. Nevertheless, it isnât just about perception but also about factual behaviour and about discrimination. Many of these things are in the âhistoryâ of (not only) Christianity as well, respectivly can be explained on examples - e.g. there is the LRA which âisâ (allegedly - depending on definition) Christian. Do you personally feel anyhow responsible for their actions? And if you personally would decide to turn them back on a righteous path, how would you go on about it?
While I donât see anything wrong about proper dress codes (as in for events) nor, as mentioned, about proper health and safety rules (part of which is what is clothing made of and eventually with what it was treated), I think that any female has as much freedom to wear e.g. a burqa as a male has to wear e.g. hat, sun glasses and scarf, albeit in case of burqa we are talking about something in the lines of a religious trademark, respectivly burqas being sacred (indirectly). Not sure if it would be correct to say that a burqa is a religious habit, in my opinion it isnât unless worn in âassociationâ with a religious order (/tariqa), respectivly the code of dress thereof. So or so, albeit not the same in overall function, as far as social function (that is blocking views) is concerned cornettes can be very similar with blocking views on sides and on up-front with bowed head, without muffled voice though.
As you point out, long dress, similarly to riding e.g. a horse, can hinder proper riding/driving.
I donât really know what is meant by âproper integrationâ. Laws, sure, part of which is freedom of religion, and I donât how much, if at all, is Islam anti-U.S.-constitutional.
Bigotry can have various forms I guess, and it can be hidden under a veil of not-only religion, as in the bigoter bigoting the bigoted âwithin lawâ. If âbogusâ is meant as false accusation, I donât think that it is legal for such in any or most legal systems, keeping in mind of course that accusation can be considered by accuser as being substantiated regardless of whether it is substantiated or not.
Dreams can be (influenced) by various factors. E.g. what you described sounds a bit as about a medical operation. So or so, from what I know, sacrifices of animals in Judaism, Christianity and Islam are done by slicing the throat, so explaination could be even that you had in your body too much cholesterol (at that time in 1994).
It sure would be nice if refugees had proper homes, without at least any kind of physical violence, etcetera.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The point is she was indeed radical.
You were not witness. So you canât invalidate if you didnât experience itâŚwhich is the issue I am addressingâŚand Americans who are seeing this and not allowed to say anything is very wrong.
We live in a divided country where atheistic secularism is in its greatest powerâŚall working to destroy Judeo Christianity.
You were not witness. So you canât invalidate if you didnât experience itâŚwhich is the issue I am addressingâŚand Americans who are seeing this and not allowed to say anything is very wrong.
We live in a divided country where atheistic secularism is in its greatest powerâŚall working to destroy Judeo Christianity.
A
AngryAtheist8
Guest
What are you trying to say?*arranged marriage by introduction, meant as being introduced/initiated in a meeting e.g. by relative to a potential spouse without basically any further action by relative.
Muslims see it, I assume, as well as bodily and spiritual processes anyhow, with emphasis of remission of sin/s on the sinner and the sinner doing so rather earlier than later before death. Plus also that there is lower to no likelyhood of a successful remission especially if sin didnât happen âout of ignoranceâ (not not having been told, but rather knowing that it is wrong; being told though helps to know but such telling can, doesnât necessarily have to, bring falseness ond falsehood with it) but not exclusivly. Or something as such.
**Well, these women may have been wondering how many men you led astray, wrongly in such assumption I am sure, or they may have been envying of your personal beauty, respectivly of your emanation. Not that I would think that such things are common among Muslim women, on the contrary, yet such things are in the realm of the possible, especially when seeing you (I guess). **
I think it is easier for you as woman to meet women Muslim neighbours than it would be for me.
âIntellectual conceptâ is perhaps rather a harsh choice of words in regard to ânationâ though. Nevertheless, nations are entities exceeding the definition of merely being groups of individuals.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
LadervijdâŚ
Where do you live, what is your background? Please give us a perspective on where you are coming from.
Where do you live, what is your background? Please give us a perspective on where you are coming from.
L
Ladervijd
Guest
I am not invalidating what you described. Regarding the bank incident, I pointed out that I donât see anything illegal about it, and as I havenât been there I pointed out the possibility of the furiosity having to do with her bank-client relation, albeit as you pointed out it being a month after 9/11, it is very possible that she was overally upset about eventual anti-Muslim flak, about life, ond about 9/11 itself, while possibly taking a stance about her believes. Or perhaps she didnât care about any of all this and was just upset because she was âtoldâ to wear such.
I donât know about particular meanings of headbands, and about eventual restrictions on the use thereof, in Islam. I do know though that categorially headbands are used as part of clothing outfit, and that e.g. headbands in Japan have inscription as well (in sports, respectivly in martial arts) I think. And if it was meant as provocation then it seems that it was a âsuccessful provocationâ.
Personally, I donât really know who overally you in plural are regarding criticism of Islam/Muslims addressing, apart from the present public. In particular regarding what you wrote, I would say that bouncing into/onto back, avoiding responsibility, false accusation, and violent Mosque gathering are not Islamic. In particular, the car accident sounds as if the reasoning of the driver was something as âit was an accident, so I donât have responsibilityâ which doesnât really apply in the described situation and in other situations, respectivly in the described case it perhaps was not intention but the accident happened due to negligence, and in particular âdriving licenseâ comes with laws e.g. regarding insurance and things regarding that.
What I wrote. E.g. wearing a talar doesnât make a person holy. And because e.g. Muslims have a (different) understanding of values, does it not make (all) invalid regardless of whether it is expressed by eventual (passive) snobbing or not (at all).
Oh, I would rather pretend that I may be anywhere, for a seek and find game. Nothing worth telling about me really anyways I guess.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The couple lied and the husband insulted me. AgainâŚyou are excusing and not facing the reality we as Americans are going throughâŚ
Which is why I am asking you againâŚwhat is your association and domicile?
There are too many stories coming out of England and other European countriesâŚimmigration for oilâŚDe GaulâŚ
I worked overseas and respected the law of the land and was very sensitive about fitting in and respecting themâŚin every country I was in.
Which is why I am asking you againâŚwhat is your association and domicile?
There are too many stories coming out of England and other European countriesâŚimmigration for oilâŚDe GaulâŚ
I worked overseas and respected the law of the land and was very sensitive about fitting in and respecting themâŚin every country I was in.
L
Ladervijd
Guest
To me it seems clear that I didnât excuse the mentioned couples behaviour, and I pointed out that, to me, it doesnât seem as if such behaviour was in any way Islamic.
What reality? You having problems with an insurance claim? Yes, that is annoying. âLetâs slay, smash, or cast something unto (depending on character class), any- and every-one who stands in the way of your justified claim, I guessâ (joke), but hey, it seems that no one did get hurt, thatâs good, isnât it? There is not really anything I can do about your insurance claim, about such, or about what happened. If you have the couplesâ email or phone number, I could send them an email or call them though.
I was in a similar car accident as you described once, albeit I was the one who did a little bit of scratching with front right corner behind the rear left wheel of another car while not properly left-turning parking on a parking lot. The driver of the other car, who was in the car at the time of the accident, took pictures of the scratch, and we filled out the form, the page thereof for the insurance company of the car I was driving I took to office of that insurance company in-time, albeit as shortened words were at the check-boxes in the accident form I overlooked a wrong box-ticking by the driver of the other car as he filled out the form, which I noticed later on after signing the form (which isnât meant as excuse, just as description. I assume that accident forms have an unified standard regardless of which insurance company issued them, so fault regarding this is on my side, I guess, as I didnât properly look at such form before).
Nevertheless, it wasnât really good manners as I didnât send any apology gift afterwards, which could (in times and places) I guess easily be misunderstood especially as the driver of the other car which was newish was in the car with, I assume, wife and child of his. With contemplating âscratchâ, the fact that his wife was in the car, and the topic of this thread, if I were jealous or such and wanted to do mischief, I could technically have had done (bigger) mischief. Which brings us partially to you asking me about association and whereabouts. De iure (here) I am Roman Catholic, albeit that does have little to no relevancy. As for physical whereabouts, I think it is alright for an actual female to ask online for whereabouts of others in a âsessionâ and that without telling her whereabouts, e.g. looking for pen-friend/s (as far away as possible), unlike vice-versa, and in fact in particular for any child there is basically no reason to enter anything anywhere (publically) not only online about whereabouts or even full name for that matter (unless really necessary as in the eventuality of an emergency without functional phone or other condition). So or so, even though I kind of avoided the question, I basically said no. Now giving in wouldnât be an example of good (online) behaviour to children.
I donât know what you mean by immigration for oil and De Gaul.
What I donât understand is in how or how much is Islam breaching U.S. law, if so, and I donât understand how or how much is a Muslim breaching U.S. law for being a Muslim, if so, respectivly how being a Muslim has to do with matters about secular law regarding not only U.S. Citizens (unless the relevancy is about hate-crime or such, or in particular about family issues, I donât know relevant cases), if so.
There sure are differences in approaches. E.g. a firm/shop run by family has a market advantage in lower wages (I think, not sure about laws regarding wages of employed adult(ish) relatives). Marriages are approached slightly differently, and e.g. in the Catholic Church is, I think, in case of divorce requirement of an annulment for the divorced for any future marriage with different spouse to be valid. So or so, I donât understand how in particular e.g. worship by Muslims, or Islam, is infringing on your rights, if so.
Yes, there are family issues, the (possibility of) occurence of any of which though is not limited to any e.g. eventual religion ond country, and is partially connected with (state) law and law enforcement (which at places is restricted within its role due to more or less political reasons, or even targetted).
What reality? You having problems with an insurance claim? Yes, that is annoying. âLetâs slay, smash, or cast something unto (depending on character class), any- and every-one who stands in the way of your justified claim, I guessâ (joke), but hey, it seems that no one did get hurt, thatâs good, isnât it?
There is not really anything I can do about your insurance claim, about such, or about what happened. If you have the couplesâ email or phone number, I could send them an email or call them though.I was in a similar car accident as you described once, albeit I was the one who did a little bit of scratching with front right corner behind the rear left wheel of another car while not properly left-turning parking on a parking lot. The driver of the other car, who was in the car at the time of the accident, took pictures of the scratch, and we filled out the form, the page thereof for the insurance company of the car I was driving I took to office of that insurance company in-time, albeit as shortened words were at the check-boxes in the accident form I overlooked a wrong box-ticking by the driver of the other car as he filled out the form, which I noticed later on after signing the form (which isnât meant as excuse, just as description. I assume that accident forms have an unified standard regardless of which insurance company issued them, so fault regarding this is on my side, I guess, as I didnât properly look at such form before).
Nevertheless, it wasnât really good manners as I didnât send any apology gift afterwards, which could (in times and places) I guess easily be misunderstood especially as the driver of the other car which was newish was in the car with, I assume, wife and child of his. With contemplating âscratchâ, the fact that his wife was in the car, and the topic of this thread, if I were jealous or such and wanted to do mischief, I could technically have had done (bigger) mischief. Which brings us partially to you asking me about association and whereabouts. De iure (here) I am Roman Catholic, albeit that does have little to no relevancy. As for physical whereabouts, I think it is alright for an actual female to ask online for whereabouts of others in a âsessionâ and that without telling her whereabouts, e.g. looking for pen-friend/s (as far away as possible), unlike vice-versa, and in fact in particular for any child there is basically no reason to enter anything anywhere (publically) not only online about whereabouts or even full name for that matter (unless really necessary as in the eventuality of an emergency without functional phone or other condition). So or so, even though I kind of avoided the question, I basically said no. Now giving in wouldnât be an example of good (online) behaviour to children.
I donât know what you mean by immigration for oil and De Gaul.
What I donât understand is in how or how much is Islam breaching U.S. law, if so, and I donât understand how or how much is a Muslim breaching U.S. law for being a Muslim, if so, respectivly how being a Muslim has to do with matters about secular law regarding not only U.S. Citizens (unless the relevancy is about hate-crime or such, or in particular about family issues, I donât know relevant cases), if so.
There sure are differences in approaches. E.g. a firm/shop run by family has a market advantage in lower wages (I think, not sure about laws regarding wages of employed adult(ish) relatives). Marriages are approached slightly differently, and e.g. in the Catholic Church is, I think, in case of divorce requirement of an annulment for the divorced for any future marriage with different spouse to be valid. So or so, I donât understand how in particular e.g. worship by Muslims, or Islam, is infringing on your rights, if so.
Yes, there are family issues, the (possibility of) occurence of any of which though is not limited to any e.g. eventual religion ond country, and is partially connected with (state) law and law enforcement (which at places is restricted within its role due to more or less political reasons, or even targetted).
- Status