Tempting eyes and Muslim men !!!

[KathleenGee]

To bring up the Crusades is so hypocritical…

You don’t see Christians and Jews wanting to take over Islam’s holy sites. The Crusaders were sent because of the treatment of Christians and the destruction of a sacred site in Jerusalem, and the murder of pilgrims travelling to the Holy Land, combined with many pleas for help to Rome.

It took Rome 400 years of listening to calls for help by the Christians in Jerusalem to finally draw together the Crusades.

 

[Amer_Was_Amazed]

well, I can’t say I agree with what you said regarding rape(bolded). While rapes occur everywhere, only in Islamic countries does the victim gets accused of adultery and thrown in jail or worse, if she claims that she was raped. According to Sharia law, there are needed to be 4 witnesses(male) for the proof that it indeed was a rape. I can tell that this DOESN’T happen anywhere in the West

Well, I didn’t say that, Muhamamed supossedly did so I don’t know what you mean exactly? But yes, Sharia law is very strict, but the question I was raising is whether or not the Sharia law applied to rape is a man-made, twisted one or one based off of actual verses and hadiths, because I have not found any yet, but I might be wrong. Things haven’t always been rosy in the Catholic world either, and still aren’t today as humans are just humans and we all make mistakes. The main question is always not what do the followers do, but what does the religion they believe in truly teach. I hope I made this clear, I wrote this in a hurry.

 

[Bev17243]

Well, I didn’t say that, Muhamamed supossedly did so I don’t know what you mean exactly? But yes, Sharia law is very strict, but the question I was raising is whether or not the Sharia law applied to rape is a man-made, twisted one or one based off of actual verses and hadiths, because I have not found any yet, but I might be wrong. Things haven’t always been rosy in the Catholic world either, and still aren’t today as humans are just humans and we all make mistakes. The main question is always not what do the followers do, but what does the religion they believe in truly teach. I hope I made this clear, I wrote this in a hurry.

Sharia law is accepted in many Muslim countries and I find it hard to believe that a Muslim wouldn’t be familiar with it. Allow me to tell you about it-when Mohammed was married to his young wife Aisha, they were travelling one time together. As they stopped for rest, she went aside to “attend to herself”. After she got into her camel, she realized that left her necklace behind and went back to get it. Caravan left without her, not realizing that she wasn’t in her palanquin. As she was waiting, a man came along that she knew and offered to take her to her husband. As they travelled people noticed them and gossip started that she was having an affair with handsome young man. Mohammed became jealous and distrustful and started quiestioning everyone. Finally, he decided (with Allah’s help) that Aisha was indeed innocent and from them on, any accussations of adultery would be required to produce four male witnesses. That’s what the hadith said. Nothing was "twisted " or misundersood here by Sharia law. They do exactly what Mohammed told everyone to do.
As for things, “not so rosy in Catholic world”-whatever happened in Catholic church, they don’t throw women in jail for “adultery” neither do they practice honor killing. With all due respect, you need to stop making excuses for things that happen in every Islamic country today and now

 

[Bev17243]

Bev…thank you for your comments…

The bottom line is this: If Muslim women – and their families were given education based on the truth of Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church and compare it to Islam…I bet many would convert to Christ!

And…this is another twist…I would love to see the return of the mantilla/veil by women…freely chosen…at Mass!

I have a mantilla that was made by a Jewish woman…Devorah’s Head Coverings online…and a mantilla shawl given by a parishioner to a fellow woman seeking to wear one.

I transferred to another parish closer to my home…and as of yet as I brought up the suggestion…no one has the desire. For me to wear a mantilla at Mass in that parish would bring unnecessary attention to myself. We are having icons now installed in what was formerly a very contemporary parish…wait and see and pray…

yep, I agree with you there. Incidentally, lot of people bring up Crusades but that’s just ignorance of history since Crusades didn’t begin until Islamic armies invaded the Holy Land and were attacking Byzantium as well.
btw, I think if you want to wear veil at the Mass, I would. what important is what is your heart and what God wants, who cares about what others think. I went to early morning Mass in local church and lot of women wore veils, however it seems like on Sundays/afternoon Mass noone does. I started to it anyway and was very selfconcious about it at first but now I am so used to it that it feels very natural. My is not a mantilla but light black scarf. Bottom line is-don’t let other peoples stares and opinions stop you:thumbsup: I have an issue with how “modern” everything has become and to me, its not a good thing when it comes to Church

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Bev…I do want to…but the veil in the Latin rite can also be seen as a form of association…like the Sedevancantists…who believe the last series of popes we have had are false popes because they uphold Novus Ordo…the New Mass…and the women follow the old liturgical canons stating we did have to have our heads covered…

Our present Pope Benedict is desiring the return of communion rails which I also would like…much more profound veneration of the Eucharist at reception…and such posture would also work against those who take the Eucharist out for sacrilegious purposes.

I know what you mean about doing what is in your heart…but I don’t want people staring at me and wondering when they should be focusing on Mass…I come there for Christ and not support or anything else…but where I live, the mantilla is indeed political…subtle…my former pastor discouraged me from wearing one…and then the very next day the parishioner offered him the shawl to pass on to someone…and I got it…and treasure it…but it is a shawl…and not a veil.

Check out Devorah’s Head Coverings on line…they are beautiful and she gets requests from Catholics/Orthodox.

 

[Bev17243]

Thanks, Bev…I do want to…but the veil in the Latin rite can also be seen as a form of association…like the Sedevancantists…who believe the last series of popes we have had are false popes because they uphold Novus Ordo…the New Mass…and the women follow the old liturgical canons stating we did have to have our heads covered…

Our present Pope Benedict is desiring the return of communion rails which I also would like…much more profound veneration of the Eucharist at reception…and such posture would also work against those who take the Eucharist out for sacrilegious purposes.

I know what you mean about doing what is in your heart**…but I don’t want people staring at me and wondering when they should be focusing on Mass…I come there for Christ and not support or anything else…but where I live, the mantilla is indeed political…subtle…my former pastor discouraged me from wearing one…and then the very next day the parishioner offered him the shawl to pass on to someone…and I got it…and treasure it…but it is a shawl…and not a veil.**
Check out Devorah’s Head Coverings on line…they are beautiful and she gets requests from Catholics/Orthodox.

oh, dear. I’m really surprised that your priest was actually discourauging you from wearing it. I do understand where you are coming from, believe me. You should see how women dress in the local RC parishes-miniskirts, bare flesh all over, short shorts, ect I stand out like a sore thumb for while I don’t wear long dresses or whatever, I dress more conserviatively it seems than lot of women here. Incidentally, when i went to EO for liturgy for the first time, I was striken by how conservatively women were dressed there-mostly knee lengh or longer dresses/skirts and lot of them were covering their hair. It takes time and courage to do what God calls you to do, and its not easy. Trust me I know, it wasn’t easy for me either:yup:
God Bless
Bev

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Well, I didn’t say that, Muhamamed supossedly did so I don’t know what you mean exactly? But yes, Sharia law is very strict, but the question I was raising is whether or not the Sharia law applied to rape is a man-made, twisted one or one based off of actual verses and hadiths, because I have not found any yet, but I might be wrong. Things haven’t always been rosy in the Catholic world either, and still aren’t today as humans are just humans and we all make mistakes. The main question is always not what do the followers do, but what does the religion they believe in truly teach. I hope I made this clear, I wrote this in a hurry.

I am no fan of the Catholic Church, but if your referring to the Catholic Sex Abuse Scandal, that’s an example of corruption in the Catholic Church (priests not following their own rules, and being too ashamed yet proud to admit it).
Whereas the many abuses towards women that occur under Sharia law in places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan are a result of Islam operating as advertised.

 

[KathleenGee]

B…I will bring it up from time to time in my women’s group…they have been there longer than me…newer parish…contemporary…but the Blessed Mother has a strong number of devotees among them now…parish changing alot in 10 years…icons going up…better translation now at Mass…

Thanks for your encouragement…

 

[Ladervijd]

There is an obvious difference between peaceful loving people and those deny human beings their basic dignity and human rights, and who live in subjugation…

Yes, there is a difference in that. Political catch-phrases don’t necessarily capture any actual issue though. E.g., I mentioned the dissing thing. Is “dissing” against “basic dignity”? If so, where is your condemnation of “dissing”? So or so, while I am certainly for proper naming of things, I am not really fond of “newspeak”. While I understand what you are on about, and while I basically agree with such in overall terms, it can be mish-mash with definitions - e.g. if: everyone has basic dignity regardless of whatever then no one can deny such (except in subjective perception, or, except for, as we are partially on about, eventual laws which brings us to that imprisoned persons had their right to liberty, e.g. art.3 of UDHR, denied to them, which though most don’t complain about if it is state doing so e.g. with anyone who raped). Similarly, it could be argued that a woman wearing a burqa is more dignified than a woman in short-skirt on street (enjoying the attention ond squeezing out favours where possible), which is partially what the west-muslim issue is about, and which is also about a broader range of topics, such as “promotion”, respectivly implementation, of international treaties and law thereof, all while in particular the U.S. is one of two countries which have not ratified Convention on the Rights of the Child, and the economy-industry in itself seems as if profit and ****s are worth devastating flora and fauna of this planet (which by the way nothing is). Yes, economy has a role in the ability of excersising freedoms, but anyone with e.g. millions of dollars on one of his bank accounts is not morally superior (because of such). It isn’t hypocrisy just in the west, but there are many examples of ‘west fails’, respectivly of ‘shortfalls’ where possibly one group (in this example part of west) messes up and other groups thereof have to patch-work how possible. I certainly agree that if whatever goes wrong that it shouldn’t be swept under the carpet, and instead that there should be proper investigation, that perpetrators are held to responsibility, and that it ideally doesn’t happen again which includes making sure everyone knows that such isn’t tolerated. For example:
“The global prevalence of child sexual abuse has been estimated at 19.7% for females and 7.9% for males, according to a 2009 study published in Clinical Psychology Review that examined 65 studies from 22 countries. Using the available data, the highest prevalence rate of child sexual abuse geographically was found in Africa (34.4%), primarily because of high rates in South Africa; Europe showed the lowest prevalence rate (9.2%); America and Asia had prevalence rates between 10.1% and 23.9%. In the past, other research has concluded similarly that in North America, for example, approximately 15% to 25% of women and 5% to 15% of men were sexually abused when they were children.”
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse

Article 1. of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
“All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.”
un.org/en/documents/udhr/

Without much nitpicking, if approximately every fifth person (in North America) was sexually abused (respectivly in case of children sexually used as any use, in this case largely use for ‘sexual satisfication’, is the abuse), then at least every fifth person had their dignity and rights denied to them in childhood. (probably not counting numbers of those who sold themselves out of materialism or who did so because of e.g. being street kids without food and without any place to go (they would know of)).

While I have been trying to point out that the westernish countries are not perfect either, I certainly agree that any discrimination, especially in any state branch, should not be.* In other words, if anyone in particular e.g. ****s any child (by definition of actual biological age or by definition of incest) then punishment shall not miss such here ond in the hereafter regardless of whatever, such as in Article 2. of UDHR, even if it were any Pope or Jesus Christ Himself, and it doesn’t really matter if such child was, partially due to developing hormonal stuff, looking with lustful eyes or such.
As for sexual development, myself, I was talked into tongue-kissing mouth-to-mouth on hay with a girl of about the same age by her with me being about eight years of age at that time. Which I am mentioning because the occurence of interest of kids about any sexual activity can be even in such young age, albeit in this case it was with her pretext about being like adults, so arguably when any child has nothing to copy nor has been ‘instructed’, then sexual interest doesn’t appear at least until age and stage of puberty or even later, with interest of (mostly) girls about dating and such being of romantic nature not of sexual. A thing I like about the U.S. is that so-called age of consent is 16-18 years of minimum age, albeit I guess it can be eventually misunderstood by used children below such age as if they were criminal. In Saudi Arabia, I think it is against the law for any sexual activity outside of marriage, with currently minimum age at 10 years of age for such.

*An example of negative discrimination biased against e.g. women in the judiciary could be that criminal women get harsher punishments than criminal men get for the same delicts.

 

[Ladervijd]

Denial…real name…and a political agenda…

Methinks those who stand firm in the abuse and subjugation of women and non-Muslims within Islam as well as its outreaches into Western nations, its promotion of Sharia in foreign and non-traditional countries…we are being watched as well…

Soon after 9/11…I did a history timeline search on Islam…and the ongoing skirmishes, assaults, battles, wars…in the name of Islam…since its inception…I later went back to find the website, I couldn’t find it…Islamicists buying up the internet to clean their slate…and hide the truth…

If so, perhaps they did it to avoid ‘promotion’ of barbaric(?) warfare, respectivly to prevent misinterpretation of historic events (which happened about 1400 Solar-Terra years ago by the way), such as confusing a Christian church with temple/s from stories about historic events in Mesopotamia?
But yes, ‘media-wars’ can be a problem regarding various issues regardless of who is behind it and for which reasons.

and Islam codifies it.

What and where does Islam codify?

Recently 42 Somali Christians were worshipping their own faith in privacy in Saudi Arabia…were imprisoned and now jailed…insinuations of torture coming out…

If so as you put it, yes, it shouldn’t be so that anyone who (in privacy) worships in peace (without sodomy, violence, etcetera, of which none is about worship anyways) gets anyhow punished for such. As for the premise of why such (may have) happened, it may be about laws regarding (secret) gatherings/assemblies (e.g. on anti-terrorist or other grounds), or a number of persons of the group may have been looked for on charges unrelated to the worship? Nevertheless, apparently even Shia Muslims face discrimination in Saudi Arabia, so anything such seems to be in the lines of ‘we are the best, ergo anyone else is worse and may have a bad influence’ by those in power.
Neither should there anywhere be any torture.

Saudi Arabia is the epicenter of Islam.

The Vatican is the epicenter of Roman Catholicism that tolerates the building of many mosques in Italy and throughout the world…and the equal dignity of women. Big difference in the practices of different peoples.

Geophysically Mecca is.
Roman Catholicism and Vatican are not issuing the building permits of mosques, but yeah, I agree that especially in communities with Christians that such Christians should be free to build house/s of worship, not for e.g. political seclusion, but for worshipping the Christian way.
“equal dignity of women”
Well, if women and men are 100% equal in everything, then nothing speaks against female priests, does it? So or so, it doesn’t seem as if there would be no sexism, chauvinism, etc. in westernish countries. While it isn’t just males doing so, it is usually males who e.g. treat females as trophies, who expect them to be slut-like, skinny, and … and who e.g. in the aforementioned porns have plenty of lines such as “Suck it!” Yes, I understand that a lot of it is supposedly about some dominance-submission roleplay, but I doubt that many females would find it sexy to receive less money for work a male gets for the same, or that any female would be happy about being a punching bag for his frustrations, or that any female would consider it romantic to have been cheated on or lied to until he did get what he wanted and eventually buggered off afterwards, unless she lives in a reality where she thinks that is how it ought to be and eventually even blames herself. Sure, in a situation where new female college students are being told (individually) that they ought to have an initiation (otherwise they will be outsiders for not having integrated with more or less secret customs, and with expectations of perverted) which involves sex, striptease, naked pics, or anything such, and she/they believe it, ‘fault’ for such is arguably also on their side if they were actually eager about it, nevertheless regardless of whether she/they was/were eager about it or whether she/they did so because they were (otherwise) ‘compelled’ to do so, it doesn’t seem right, does it?

A face covering, heavy clothes and veil…they in themselves do not bring about holiness but a truthful, humble and loving heart.

In Judeo Christianity, we believe that every human being is made in God’s image…and belongs to Him.

Life is not given to any child by parent/s, and parent/s don’t own any child’s life (and vice versa understandably).

Those who kill or subjugate other human beings on account of gender and creed offend Almighty God…

I basically agree, though I would say that any murder is at least a bit worse than being an offense to God.

And the honor killings this past year in Pakistan have been horrific…where is the militancy in Islam to protest such things???

The militancy is I think either political or mercenary or both. Anyhow, I don’t think every not only such militancy understands “protest” in the same way you do, and it should be proper state, respectivly branches thereof, doing policing etcetera. But yeah, many of the militants are probably of various social backgrounds and have experienced plenty bad stuff, so they would be able to tell about many wrongs, albeit words speak louder than guns (etcetera) in any case.

There is unfortunately also currently human trafficking going on in westernish countries. Forced prostitution and out-right slave labour mostly I guess. Also organ trafficking.

 

[Ladervijd]

What are you trying to say?

That Honor Killings are no big deal?

Or that Honor Killings aren’t Islamic (despite the fact that many faithful Muslims engage in the practice)?

I haven’t really been explicit about it.
In particular many catholic priests abused/molested/raped in huge numbers, which though doesn’t mean that Christianity is in support of such in any case.
Regarding killing of any human being, in Islam any such killing is legally permissible, to eventually happen by executive, in cases of murderers, rapists, traitors (into the category of which arguably falls anyone who by their action/s may be a threat to public health, not meaning in this stds transmitted by sex), and of enemies at war (not so of any prisoner of war though). The reason/s for so-called honour killings don’t fall into any such category, respectivly the act of murder by honour killing does, but not e.g. romance of the person killed/murdered. “Family honour” and safety of family (because a daughter has a romance/affair with a married man) being a bit different topics, albeit, as pointed out, capital punishment is not permissible by anywho in such (perhaps arguably except for the cheated on wife killing her cheating husband, which would be probably in such case in every country be considered murder anyways as she ought to file for divorce in case of having been or being cheated on, I guess).

 

[Ladervijd]

I agree with you there. The other poster is either Muslim or Muslim appologist. Trying to excuse honor killings and rape epidemic that is happening in many Middle Eastern countries and blaming it on other factors is a pretty lame excuse but I heard it many times before.
I read Quran and find it a pretty good explanation on why women are treated the way they are in many Islamic countries

Not excusing it. Just pointing out that it doesn’t seem Islamic by any definition of permissible killings in Islam, especially where such happened because of e.g. romances or affairs. But when we talk in terms of honour killing as e.g. Saudi Arabia having had killed Osama bin Laden in the past decade for the shame he brought on them, then a many Americans would have been applauding such, wouldn’t they?

Feel free to quote from the Quran about “why women are treated the way they are in many Islamic countries”.

I can tell you since he or she is playing games. English is his/her second language so I’m guessing either Muslim country or recent immigrant. Since you asked him/her if she/he was a Muslim and evasive answer followed, you can bet that the correct answer would be “yes”.
My experience with online debating with Muslims all have all been simular to what you are experiencing.

Evading answerering a straightforward question, blaming the west/soc/economic factors/Crusades/capitalism, flatout denial what Quran teaches, making excuses for terroristic behavior(they were poor/angry at Americans/Jews, you pick). Sounds familiar:yup:
As for that poster statement claiming ignorance of a dress code, I do happen to know the dress code-Saudi Arabia-enforced abbaya and veil for all women(and yes, they have to be black because I guess any other color is immodest to them). Majority of women there seem to favor some sort of eye slit. That’s definately not about modesty-this is about considering all women “tempresses” who only want to seduce men ergo women need to resemble black garbage cans. Mmm, just the place where I want to spend my Christmas(wait, I think I will be thrown in jail there if I mention the word “Christmas”)

^Your conclusions.
Feel free to quote “what Quran teaches”.
By Christian males there isn’t always fond talk about Christian females neither, but such isn’t necessarily meant in a mean way. Personally, I care little about what who wears as long as it is within reasonable health and safety regulations and fair trade.

well, I can’t say I agree with what you said regarding rape(bolded). While rapes occur everywhere, only in Islamic countries does the victim gets accused of adultery and thrown in jail or worse, if she claims that she was raped. According to Sharia law, there are needed to be 4 witnesses(male) for the proof that it indeed was a rape. I can tell that this DOESN’T happen anywhere in the West

When a woman accuses after a period of time of consensual affair for whatever reason her secret lover as having raped her, (only) the male should be punished because ?

Sharia law is accepted in many Muslim countries and I find it hard to believe that a Muslim wouldn’t be familiar with it. Allow me to tell you about it-when Mohammed was married to his young wife Aisha, they were travelling one time together. As they stopped for rest, she went aside to “attend to herself”. After she got into her camel, she realized that left her necklace behind and went back to get it. Caravan left without her, not realizing that she wasn’t in her palanquin. As she was waiting, a man came along that she knew and offered to take her to her husband. As they travelled people noticed them and gossip started that she was having an affair with handsome young man. Mohammed became jealous and distrustful and started quiestioning everyone. Finally, he decided (with Allah’s help) that Aisha was indeed innocent and from them on, any accussations of adultery would be required to produce four male witnesses. That’s what the hadith said. Nothing was "twisted " or misundersood here by Sharia law. They do exactly what Mohammed told everyone to do.
As for things, “not so rosy in Catholic world”-whatever happened in Catholic church, they don’t throw women in jail for “adultery” neither do they practice honor killing. With all due respect, you need to stop making excuses for things that happen in every Islamic country today and now

So, as I think pointed out earlier, if anyone makes an accusation of adultery, it is required for there to be witnesses to back up the adultery accusation (in particular as adultery is criminal in many countries).
The by Amer quoted hadith talks about a rape being as soon as possible reported, with punishment of the rapist and no punishment of the raped.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery#Consequences

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Not excusing it. Just pointing out that it doesn’t seem Islamic by any definition of permissible killings in Islam, especially where such happened because of e.g. romances or affairs. But when we talk in terms of honour killing as e.g. Saudi Arabia having had killed Osama bin Laden in the past decade for the shame he brought on them, then a many Americans would have been applauding such, wouldn’t they?

Feel free to quote from the Quran about “why women are treated the way they are in many Islamic countries”.

^Your conclusions.
Feel free to quote “what Quran teaches”.
By Christian males there isn’t always fond talk about Christian females neither, but such isn’t necessarily meant in a mean way. Personally, I care little about what who wears as long as it is within reasonable health and safety regulations and fair trade.

When a woman accuses after a period of time of consensual affair for whatever reason her secret lover as having raped her, (only) the male should be punished because ?

So, as I think pointed out earlier, if anyone makes an accusation of adultery, it is required for there to be witnesses to back up the adultery accusation (in particular as adultery is criminal in many countries).
The by Amer quoted hadith talks about a rape being as soon as possible reported, with punishment of the rapist and no punishment of the raped.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery#Consequences

I lost touch with this thread, and is so stimulating.
So, I started with the last post.
I could not figure out what you were talking about as you seemed to say THE SAME THING or the difference was so little that I could not find it.

 

[KathleenGee]

The treatment of women by Islam…looking at its source…Saudi Arabia compared to the Catholic Church’s treatment of women, given us by Christ Himself are totally are totally opposite. The caliphs of Persia, the home of Shi’ites…same problem. Look at how women are being treated now in Iran…

The booty, the women slaves of Islam…the sultans’ concubines…this is Islam in practice.

A veil, a covering means nothing if the heart and soul are in darkness, and the religion sees everyone else as inferior…

There is such an obsession in Islam of being superior to others but demonstrating very bad behaviors among themselves and towards others who are not. No Sharia will improve any economy as long as people are reduced to subjugation and a form of religious enslavement.

 

[KathleenGee]

Calling the kettle black…you are showing your bias…

Only 1% of Catholic priests were proven pedophile, 4% of homosexual orientation, the majority of these happening in sex-obsessed modern English speaking countries, the crimes happening from exposure of the sexual revolution of the late 60’s to early '70’s…the public school system which is secular and anti-Catholic has sex abuse rates 100 times that of the priesthood where 95% are moral. Hollywood and the porn industry, human trafficking that is reaching deeper and deeper into many areas of the world, including the traditional Muslim countries that has used women as sex slaves throughout its history…

Consider the man/boy loves of Kandahar, and practices of the boy ‘pearls’ awaiting the men when they reach heaven along with the 72 white virgins…

Power feeds on greed and sex and once addicted to it with no constraints…it is passion that is never satisfied…it continues into Muslim sex paradise and flowing wine…

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, in Africa women are abused…and the Church works to uphold their dignity…I personally worked with them, did not proselytize…and yet they came into the Church.

And what you are seeing in Western countries is not Christianity. Pope Paul VI condemned the use of contraception because in the end women would be objectified and used for sex, contraception would facilitate promiscuity and adultery, there would be proliferation of sexually transmitted diseases, the population would decrease where the elderly would not have children or enough of them to care for them in their aging process. Free sex for men would make them not want to bother to be married. People living together and having children are not creating secure homes for their offsprings.

The pornographers knew they had won when sex as the means to bring forth a human being was no longer considered, but used as pleasure…and for power and bondage.

Using women for sex and power, that is forbidden in Catholicism. I do not see the same value for woman in the secular world…or in Islam.

 

[KathleenGee]

Another splash…a nurse attempting to care for her patient …

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2077529/French-Muslim-jailed-punching-nurse-tried-remove-wifes’-burqa-childbirth.html

There are too many incidents…

Many of us knew nothing of honor killings…albeit tribal…but no human progress so practice continues that has no codified condemnation by Islam, the gross lack of perception and moderation we see demonstrated towards Muslim women…

All the data given is peripheral and not facing head on the treatment of women in Islam.

 

[Bev17243]

Not excusing it. Just pointing out that it doesn’t seem Islamic by any definition of permissible killings in Islam, especially where such happened because of e.g. romances or affairs. But when we talk in terms of honour killing as e.g. Saudi Arabia having had killed Osama bin Laden in the past decade for the shame he brought on them, then a many Americans would have been applauding such, wouldn’t they?

Feel free to quote from the Quran about “why women are treated the way they are in many Islamic countries”.

^Your conclusions.
Feel free to quote “what Quran teaches”.
By Christian males there isn’t always fond talk about Christian females neither, but such isn’t necessarily meant in a mean way. Personally, I care little about what who wears as long as it is within reasonable health and safety regulations and fair trade.

When a woman accuses after a period of time of consensual affair for whatever reason her secret lover as having raped her, (only) the male should be punished because ?

So, as I think pointed out earlier, if anyone makes an accusation of adultery, it is required for there to be witnesses to back up the adultery accusation (in particular as adultery is criminal in many countries).
The by Amer quoted hadith talks about a rape being as soon as possible reported, with punishment of the rapist and no punishment of the raped.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adultery#Consequences

Denial…denial…denial…excuses…excuses…typical
By all means, do go on but I don’t see the point since I read Quran and hadith and know what it says so :bowdown2:
Merry Christmas

 

[Bev17243]

I am no fan of the Catholic Church, but if your referring to the Catholic Sex Abuse Scandal, that’s an example of corruption in the Catholic Church (priests not following their own rules, and being too ashamed yet proud to admit it).
Whereas the many abuses towards women that occur under Sharia law in places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan are a result of Islam operating as advertised.

Man, its pointless to try to debate with someone who always has an excuse ready for everything

 

[KathleenGee]

Christ spoke to the Samaritan woman at the well…asking for a drink of water and spoke to her about her life. She left…a free woman…now having an encounter with God Made Man…now enjoying a taste of the divine and the way leading to eternal life.

How I pray more Muslim women will have their encounter with Christ this Christmas…their children and the families and become free in His life and love!

Merry Christmas!