Ten Commandments

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The system of numeration found in Catholic Bibles, based on the Hebrew text, was made by **St. Augustine **(fifth century) in his book of “Questions of Exodus” (“Quæstionum in Heptateuchum libri VII”, Bk. II, Question lxxi), and was adopted by the Council of Trent(The nineteenth ecumenical council opened at Trent on 13 December, 1545, and closed there on 4 December, 1563).

The Ten Commandments
newadvent.org/cathen/04153a.htm

Decalogue
newadvent.org/cathen/04664a.htm

**St. Augustine of Hippo (354-430) **
newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm
newadvent.org/cathen/02091a.htm

So the question should be "Why did Protestants change the Ten Commandments? after all Protestants did not come about to “protest” the Catholic Church until after 1517 ad. when Martin Luther ( a Catholic) started the Reformation.

The Catholic Church is almost 2000 years old. There have been 266 popes
from St. Peter to our current pope Benedict XVI . The Catholic Church is the church Jesus was talking about when He said…

Matthew 16:18

** “I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.”**

He did and it is still here just like He said it would be.

The List of Popes
newadvent.org/cathen/12272b.htm
 
Catholics follow the Jews in including the command against worshipping other gods and the command against making and worshipping graven images as a single commandment. Protestants, who objected to the Catholic use of religious statuary, deliberately divided the single commandment against the worship of other gods and the making and worshipping of graven images into two separate commandments, distorting the meaning of the words of God for their own purpose.
 
My understanding is that the Jews originally defined the 10 commandments as follows:

  1. *]I am God your Lord
    *]Worship no god but Me & Have no graven images
    *]Do not use the Lord’s name in vain
    *]Keep the sabbath day holy
    *]Honour your father and mother
    *]Do not kill
    *]Do not commit adultery
    *]Do not steal
    *]Do not bear false witness
    *]Do not covet your neighbour’s wife nor house

    But the Catholics thought that the first wasn’t really a commandment (but rather a proclamation), so they got rid of it and separated the last one into two (because adultery and theft are two separate commandments, and thus the desire to commit these would be separate as well).

    Protestants will remove the first one (as per Catholics), but they will split up the second one because it more closely resembles to the way it was written in the scriptures.
 
This is another great thread.

However there still remains 10 commandments.

Is it true that when Moses came down from the mountain he said he had good news and bad news? The good news was that the number of commandments (mitzvot) had been reduced from 613 to 10. The bad news was that adultery was still a sin.

Also the differences shows the Catholic old obsession with sex. Ten percent of the Jewish and Protestant commandments have to do with sex, while for Catholics it is twenty percent.
 
NoelFitz said:
This is another great thread.

However there still remains 10 commandments.

Is it true that when Moses came down from the mountain he said he had good news and bad news? The good news was that the number of commandments (mitzvot) had been reduced from 613 to 10. The bad news was that adultery was still a sin.
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Um, I think you got it backwards. The mosaic covenant started with 10. Then the Jewish laws developed into the 600+ that they had by the time of Jesus.
Also the differences shows the Catholic old obsession with sex. Ten percent of the Jewish and Protestant commandments have to do with sex, while for Catholics it is twenty percent.
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That’s funny!

Of course, we could accuse Jews and Protestants of being “sexist” since they lump “thy neighbors wife” in with “they neighbors goods”.

Are wives merely property for one to own? 😉
 
NotWorthy

I discerned before sending my post.

I am grateful you were not censorious.

I have looked at Judaism 101 (jewfaq.org/613.htm)). Many of the 613 mitzvot were derived from the Torah, as were the 10 commandmets. Thus some of the mitzvot go back to early judaism.

Your post tells me the answer to
Is it true that when Moses came down from the mountain he said he had good news and bad news?
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is no.
 
NoelFitz said:
NotWorthy

I discerned before sending my post.

I am grateful you were not censorious.

I have looked at Judaism 101 (jewfaq.org/613.htm). Many of the 613 mitzvot were derived from the Torah, as were the 10 commandmets. Thus some of the mitzvot go back to early judaism.

Your post tells me the answer to
is no.
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Censorious? Great! Now, I’ve got ANOTHER word to look up!😉
 
n2thelight said:
Why did the Catholic Church change the Ten Commandments?
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Change them from what? They are in Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21 (where they aren’t numbered) Can you please show how the 10 Commandments, as taught by the Catholic Church, differ from what is presented in these parts of the Bible.
  1. I am the Lord your God, you shall not have strange gods before me.
  2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
  3. Remember to keep holy the Lord’s Day.
  4. Honor your father and your mother.
  5. You shall not kill.
  6. You shall not commit adultery.
  7. You shall not steal
  8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
  9. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife.
  10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s goods.
 
However they’re worded, there is still ten of them. How many can we break today? In James (I believe) He says that if we break one of the commandments, we break them all. I struggle with “coveting” my neighbors goods. I envy some people because of something they own. Like, right now I envy everyone who has a violin. Or a car. Get my drift?
 
Todd_Easton said:
Catholics follow the Jews in including the command against worshiping other gods and the command against making and worshiping graven images as a single commandment. Protestants, who objected to the Catholic use of religious statuary, deliberately divided the single commandment against the worship of other gods and the making and worshiping of graven images into two separate commandments, distorting the meaning of the words of God for their own purpose.
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Todd, this is very well said, and right on the mark. The distortion was for the Protestants to write that simply making a graven image was against God’s law, not the worshiping of false gods, like worshiping a graven image. This Protestant rendering is certainly not correct, because then the angels on the Ark Of The (Old) Covenant would be violating God’s law. The serpent on top of Moses’ staff would have likewise been a violation. We know the angels on the Ark, and the serpent on the staff in themselves were not violations.
 
“It should be noted that in the corrupt Catechism (teaching) of the Catholic Church, they disguise and weaken the true Second Commandment by making it part of the First. So when they refer to the Second Commandment, it is really the Third Commandment of the Ten. Then to still have a total of Ten Commandments, they divide the Tenth Commandment into two separate Commandments (illustrated below). Why did they do this? Because the Second Commandment condemns the whole of the Catholic traditional system which is foundationally based upon idol worship, saint worship, and Mariolatry (the idolatrous worshiping of Mother Mary almost as though she were part of the Godhead herself. The Second Commandment condemns these practices explicitly:”

Nick Goggin

The Second Commandment:

Exodus 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (KJV)

By attaching the Second Commandment above, onto the first Commandment below:

Exodus 20:4-6
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

The Roman church makes it to seem that the Second Commandment is in regards only to bowing down to and worshipping some other false gods, and not the ‘Saints’ and Mother Mary.

The SECOND Commandment according to the Catholic Church; from the CC:

CC 2162. "The SECOND COMMANDMENT forbids every improper use of God’s name. Blasphemy is the use of the name of God, of Jesus Christ, of the Virgin Mary, and of the saints in an offensive way. "

The THIRD Commandment from the Bible:

Exod 20:7
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. (KJV)

To still have a total of Ten Commandments, the Catholic Church divides the Tenth Commandment into two separate Commandments (illustrated below).

The Ninth and Tenth Commandment according to the Catholic Church; from the CC:

CC 2514. “St. John distinguishes three kinds of covetousness or concupiscence: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and pride of life.[Cf. 1Jn 2:16 .] In the Catholic catechetical tradition, the NINTH COMMANDMENT forbids carnal concupiscence; the TENTH forbids coveting another’s goods.”

The TRUE Ninth Commandment from the Bible:

Exod 20:16
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (KJV)

The TRUE Tenth Commandment from the Bible:

Exod 20:17
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s. (KJV)

By reading the true tenth commandment above [Ex 20:17] it is quite clear that the Catholic Church separates it into two separate commandments without any authority to do so; it is clearly one thought, one statement, and one commandment, there is no room to separate the sentence into two different subjects. The Catholic Church does this to camouflage the joining of the first commandment onto the second. After all, they did need to add up to ten.

To all of this this they add that since Mary and the Saints aren’t called ‘gods’, the church is free to elevate them to the position that they do. But the First Commandment warns us not to have any false gods. A god is anyone or anything that you worship, whether it be Buddha, Allah, Mother Mary, a Totem Pole, Saints, Demons, Stars, the Elements, the Sun, Mythical Creatures, Riches… And the Second Commandment warns us not to make statues or figures of people or things to bow down to.

The TRUE First Commandment from the Bible:

Exod 20:3
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. (KJV)

The TRUE Second Commandment from the Bible:

Exod 20:4-6
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (KJV)

The Roman Catholic Church also further blurs the lines of reality by stating that they ‘venerate’ Mary and the Saints, not ‘worship’ them. This is merely semantics. There is an old saying: If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quakes like a duck - guess what? - It’s a duck! I don’t care how much they have ‘spin-doctored’ what they do, if they do things that constitute worship - then they are worshiping!

In other words, if you bow down to, kneel down before, clasp your hands together as you pray before, light candles to, burn incense to, Pray to (with or without a Rosary) anything or anyone other than the Lord; guess what? You are praying and worshiping something other than God. And do not think that God finds it is cute!

Nick Goggin
 
And in the Catholic version, I can’t seem to find the 4th commandment:
  1. Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy. What happened to that one???
 
Old_Scholar said:
And in the Catholic version, I can’t seem to find the 4th commandment:
  1. Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy. What happened to that one???
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Didn’t Jesus fulfill this commandment when He was laid to rest in the tomb on that Holy Saturday?
 
n2thelight said:
Because the Second Commandment condemns the whole of the Catholic traditional system which is foundationally based upon idol worship, saint worship, and Mariolatry (the idolatrous worshiping of Mother Mary almost as though she were part of the Godhead herself. The Second Commandment condemns these practices explicitly:"

Nick Goggin
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Your argument is a straw man. The Catholic Church condemns idolatry; it always has and it always will. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2112-2114)

You seem to have mistaken religious statues for idols. Idols are condemned in the Bible; religious statues are not condemned in the Bible. In fact, several religious statues were explicitly commanded in the Old Testament. Religious statues, however, can become idols when they are wrongly given divine worship, as when the bronze serpent statue, commanded by the LORD, later became the object of idolatrous worship.

Bowing (or kneeling, prostrating, lighting candles, burning incense, etc.) in and of itself, is not an act of divine worship. There are numerous examples of people bowing (or kneeling, prostrating, etc.) in the Bible that were not acts of divine worship, such as the prophet Nathan bowing before King David in 1 Kings 1:23. Bowing (or kneeling, prostrating, etc.) becomes an act of divine worship only when the intention of the heart of the bowing person is to offer divine worship. Since you cannot know the intention of another person’s heart unless he tell you, you cannot judge from appearances alone whether he is offering divine worship or not. (See John 7:24) Any Catholic who offers divine worship to anything or anyone other than God himself is acting contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Asking our Christian brothers and sisters in heaven, including the Virgin Mary, to pray for us is essentially the same as asking our Christian neighbor across the street to pray for us, except that those in heaven are more righteous than our neighbor and, consequently, their prayers are more efficacious. (See James 5:16)
 
n2thelight said:
“the Second Commandment condemns the whole of the Catholic traditional system which is foundationally based upon idol worship, saint worship, and Mariolatry (the idolatrous worshiping of Mother Mary almost as though she were part of the Godhead herself. The Second Commandment condemns these practices explicitly:”
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I fail to understand why the Church is accused of idolatry when it recognises as Scripture the book of Wisdom that has the most formidable refutation of idolatry.
Some samples: Wis 13:10-13:19 - The Foolishness of Idolatry; Wis 14:1-14:11 - the folly of a Navigator Praying to an Idol; Wis 14:12-14:31 - the Ooigin and evils of idolatry; Wis 15:1-15:6 - the benefits of worshiping the True God; Wis 15:7-15:17 - the foolishness of worshiping clay idols.
That same book is rejected by Protestants as apocrypha.
 
n2thelight said:
“It should be noted that in the corrupt Catechism (teaching) of the Catholic Church, they disguise and weaken the true Second Commandment by making it part of the First. So when they refer to the Second Commandment, it is really the Third Commandment of the Ten. Then to still have a total of Ten Commandments, they divide the Tenth Commandment into two separate Commandments (illustrated below). Why did they do this? Because the Second Commandment condemns the whole of the Catholic traditional system which is foundationally based upon idol worship, saint worship, and Mariolatry (the idolatrous worshiping of Mother Mary almost as though she were part of the Godhead herself. The Second Commandment condemns these practices explicitly:”

Nick Goggin
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Nick, since you recognize the Catechism as such, where in the Catechism does it instruct the Catholic faithful to worship idols, saints, and/or Mary? We Catholics know you won’t be able to honestly point out such a teaching. It would be interesting to watch you try and stretch something into a falsehood to cover your false accusations about Catholics… which by the way your false accusations violate God’s commandment against bearing false witness, no matter which number you give to that one.

Second, if you kneel with a Bible in your hands, are you worshiping that Bible because it is in front of you while kneeling?
 
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