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NotWorthy
Guest
Oh, man! I’ve GOT to get a Thesaurus!
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Old_Scholar
Guest
On what basis do you say that? Is there some Scripture saying that?
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MDK
Guest
There seems to be a fundamental problem with your approach, that won’t allow fair exchange of ideas until resolved. Do you believe that unless it’s in the Bible, it’s not true… and if so, then we ask why does it have to be in written tradition to be true? Jesus is the Way, Truth and the Life. The Truth is someone, not something. Not everything the Truth did was recorded in written Tradition, also known as Sacred Scripture. Are you not familiar with the following quote, and what it means, including implications?
3 John 21:25:
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Ilroy
Guest
Why are you picking on just Catholics??? Clearly you have little knowledge of the subject at hand. Here is just one link to Luther’s catechism section on the ten commandments with them numbered…hmmmm…EXACTLY the same way as Catholics…and this link is from a non-Catholic group:
wels.net/cgi-bin/site.pl?2617&collectionID=711&contentID=4333&shortcutID=2076#ten
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Old_Scholar
Guest
There are many things that aren’t in the Bible that are true. However, there is nothing pertaining to faith and morals that is true that is not there. I don’t think too many people do not recognize the fact that the Ten Commandments have been changed. he really big question is “who thinks they are smarter than God?”
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Old_Scholar
Guest
I’m not being selective. If anyone changes the Ten Commandments, no matter who they are, then they are contradicting God. The Lutheran Church, at least the Missouri Synod, lists the Ten Commandments as God listed them. Luther was never 100% right on everything…
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MDK
Guest
The really big answer to your question of who thinks they are smarter than God, is most definitely people who think they can interpret God’s Holy Word outside of the infallible Church God built to protect His Word. These people twist Sacred Scripture to their own destruction.
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MDK
Guest
The Scriptures are materially sufficient, but I believe you may take it further than that into the realm of formal sufficiency which is not true. Material sufficiency of canonical Scripture, would recognize that in one way or another, scripture contains all truths necessary for salvation, or at least the outline. I believe you add on the improper layer of formal sufficiency, which would not only include material sufficiency, but would have to be so clear that it does not need any outside information to interpret it. If you believe this, which seems likely, then you go too far and go off the rails there. There is a reason that Jesus built His Church, which is the pillar and ground of truth. The Church upholds truth, including the proper teaching of Sacred Scriptures.
In any event, what is the teaching on faith and morals regarding the Lord’s Day? Could it be a moral obligation to refrain from servile work and engage in divine worship? Include me among those would say yes.
Would the teaching on faith and morals also include the ceremonial part of which day it was done, like the Pharisees were wrapped up with… which by the way Christ rebuked the Pharisees for putting rigid observance of details above the spirit of setting aside a day to rest from unnecessary servile work and to worship God. The Jewish day commemorates the creation account, while the Christian day of rest is when Jesus arose from the dead, and appeared to His Apostles more than once on Sunday. There are other accounts in the NT that place special emphasis on Sunday.
Paul gives us a clue in Colossians 2:14-17.
14 Blotting out the handwriting of the decree that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he hath taken the same out of the way, fastening it to the cross: 15 And despoiling the principalities and powers, he hath exposed them confidently in open show, triumphing over them in himself.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths, 17 Which are a shadow of things to come, but the body is of Christ.
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Ilroy
Guest
I wasn’t addressing you…as you can plainly see I was asking the OP why he was going after Catholics only…I have learned long ago to take what you have to say with a grain of sand.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
That’s the beauty of the Catholic faith; It is bigger than the Scriptures and so it allows the Holy Spirit to teach us.
God finished creating the world on Friday and rested on Saturday.
Jesus finished His redemption work on Friday and was laid to rest on Saturday.
You may think it’s a co-incidence. But I don’t. The parrallels are too beautiful to dismiss.
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Old_Scholar
Guest
Just as I thought. There is no Scripture telling you that. More suppositions. Actually Scripture tells us Christ arose just after the Sabbath ended and that ended at 6 PM on Saturday. That’s Scripture and you can’t really dispute that. You didn’t get your information from Scripture.
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Mea_Culpa
Guest
Where does God list the Ten Commandments in a form that is different from what the Catholic Church infallibly teaches?
The Commandments are presented in two places in the Catholic Church’s Book (The Bible) - Exodus 20:2-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21. Neither of these passages has the Commandments numbered. What the Catholic Church teaches corresponds with what is in these two passages from the Catholic Church’s Book (The Bible).
Are you saying that the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod somehow received the Ten Commandments from God, and then the Catholic Church changed them? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is?
Also, below is a listing of the 10 commandments from the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod website. They are the same as the 10 Commandments from the Catholic Church. Can you please explain, if the commandments are the same, how they were changed?
Ten Commandments
What About . . . The Ten Commandments?
President A. L. Barry
The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod
**I-You shall have no other gods. **
**II-You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God. **
**III-Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. **
**IV-Honor your father and your mother. **
**V-You shall not murder. **
**VI-You shall not commit adultery. **
**VII-You shall not steal. **
**VIII-You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor. **
**IX and X- You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. **
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Suggesting that it must appear in Scripture is a supposition too.
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
Suggesting that it must appear in Scripture is a supposition too.
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MDK
Guest
What you’re actually asking us not to dispute is simply your interpretation of scripture. We love Christ so much, we refuse to believe in distortions, from people who twist Scripture to their own destruction. If you can show us that Christ has given you personally the ability to interpret infallibly, then you have a leg to stand on, and we’ll all be impressed. Can you please give us an infallible interpretation of the time when Christ arose? This would be good information. In your interpretation, is it 6:01 PM Saturday, 8PM, Midnight, 3 AM Sunday, 6 AM Sunday… you get the idea… or maybe not.
This is the danger of taking things out of context. We, Catholics live on the entire Word of God, oral and written Tradition. We don’t just take a selective quote out of the full context and twist into a false interpretation that doesn’t make sense when viewed in the light of the rest of Sacred Scripture and Oral Tradition.
For instance, what do you make of passages like Matthew 16:21?
21 From that time Jesus began to show to his disciples, that he must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the ancients and scribes and chief priests, and be put to death, and the third day rise again.
Do you claim that Jesus was crucified on Thursday and arose on Saturday?
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peary
Guest
**The early Christian church, received this catechetical tradition from the Church Fathers, especially Augustine. He relied heavily on the Decalogue as presented by Moses in Deuteronomy 5. Thus, until the late Middle Ages, children memorized the commandments in the order as we still know it from the Catechism. Even after the Reformation, Lutherans and Catholics agreed on this enumeration and arrangement.
Calvin and other Reformers, relying more on Exodus 20 and its presentation of the Decalogue, and wanting to make a strike against the statuary and icons in the Catholic Church, enumerated the commandments in a different way. The Reformers pointed out that the Jews themselves followed the order as listed in Exodus 20. However, while Jewish versions of the commandments follow Exodus 20 primarily, their enumeration does not exactly follow that of the Reformers.**
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